Real Wing Chun Competitions

[KamonGuy2]

I used to do pretty much bare knuckle comps using wing chun techniques.

I even did my last karate knockdown using wing chun footwork and movement

Wing chun is an extremely good art to learn and use for MMA

Yet as Ive said so many times, in MMA tournaments it is suicide to go in with just wing chun techniques

The reason competitions are not always great for realism are thus :-
Your opponent has tiem to study you before a match
There are usually gloves involved making it difficult not to use tension (try closing your fist with gloves on - you will inevitably tense yoru arms)
Your opponent will come from the other side of the ring/cage/mat, meaning he has an advantage to perform long range techniques (think TKD, MT, karate etc)
There is a lot of space in the rings/mats/cages to move around. In bar fights/streets, you will often be able to close your opponent to tight spaces where wing chun is much more effective

Those are just a couple of reasons. Obviously wing chun does still have use even with those hinderences, but you do need to have backup tools

Everyone always used to say BJJ was king in the ring and nothing could defeat it. If you look nowadays there are pretty much NO black belt BJJ guys fighting

I would love to see knockdown wing chun, or even a really good chi sao competition. Alan Orr tried to arrange this at SENI a few years back, but sadly it didnt really work and it came off as looking poor
I truly admire his effort to arrange it though (ie rather than discuss it, he just put it together and let it speak for itself)

And the end of the day, I will testify that wing chun does work. My friend was telling me the story of Stone Soup the other day which made me think of a lot of traditional arts that claim that the art works
Basically a tramp goes up to a house and knocks on the door. A woman answers and the tramp asks her for some water so that he can make stone soup. She cant believe that someone would make soup from a stone so duely gives him the water and watches

He puts the stone in the water and places it over the fire. He then sighs and says 'if only they had some tomatoes, it would make the stone soup taste phenomenal'. The woman, eager to make the stone soup work goes and grabs some tomatoes. Then the tramp states that the soup will be great, but would be even better with some chicken. She goes and grabs some chicken and the tramp puts it in. He then says that the soup just wouldnt be stone soup without some onions.....
It goes on until the soup contains numerous ingredients and basically cons the woman

That is what happens with a lot of styles - they add boxing, BJJ, escrima, judo etc to their art but still call it 'pure'

In Kamon, whilst the foundation art is wing chun, we also get students into sparring with boxing gloves and get them doing clinchwork. Advanced level students are expected to be able to handle themselves on the floor, in a stand up clinch and in a long range spar. They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles. So the art is not exactly wing chun anymore. It is wing chun with all that other experience. Yet when I see other schools do this they shout to the heavens that they are pure wing chun etc and that pure wing chun will work. Sometimes you have to let go and realise that whatever works is the best thing to do!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Kamon, whilst the foundation art is wing chun, we also get students into sparring with boxing gloves and get them doing clinchwork. Advanced level students are expected to be able to handle themselves on the floor, in a stand up clinch and in a long range spar. They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles. So the art is not exactly wing chun anymore. It is wing chun with all that other experience. Yet when I see other schools do this they shout to the heavens that they are pure wing chun etc and that pure wing chun will work. Sometimes you have to let go and realise that whatever works is the best thing to do!!

I am going to get myself into trouble here and likely should just stop typing and hit the back button and forget I ever saw this thread.

First, nice to see you are back posting Kamon and this response is not actually directed at you but it does point out something I have felt about Wing Chun for quite sometime now that is not such a good thing for Wing Chun IMO.

This bit actually is what I am talking about

They can do this anyway they like, but the recoomended route is to use other styles.

I trained Wing Chun Briefly and I do honestly believe it works but the problem I see with a lot of Wing Chun today is what I have called...and this is where I am going to get into trouble.....what I have called the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance).

Wing Chun tends to train "ONLY" with Wing Chun and they can get very good within the world of Wing Chun but throw in something outside of Wing Chun and they can get rather confused rather quickly due to the complete lack of training outside of Wing Chun. Now I am not saying Wing Chun is the only style that does this, a lot of styles get into their own little cult type of thinking. The "my style is best" kind of thing so why should I waste my time training with someone else.

My last walk down the Wing Chun path put a spot light on this. I have for years trained Taijiquan and I have also trained Sanda and Xingyiquan, not as long as Taiji but longer than Wing Chun. No matter how hard I tried during the training of applications I could not stop my defenses from being Taiji and my attacks (90%) of them were Xingyiquan. The defense part got frustrating because I was trying to work on Wing Chun but the attack bits is where I found this issue. Absolutely no one in class could defend against any Xingyiquan attacks. They were something that they had not seen before and were completely befuddled. Until they finally asked the Sifu how to defend against this.

I am no great master and at best in things Xingyi a beginner and my Wing Chun Sifu, who is in my opinion highly skilled and well trained (student of Ip Ching) could only stop me. We were at a stalemate. I had options in my head as to what to do and I am sure if I tried he had responses but there we stood locked and no where to go.

He had never dealt with this type of attack either since all he had trained over the years was Wing Chun with Wing Chun people. I later apologized for my lack of ability to break out of my prior training habits and decided I should just stop trying to train Wing Chun. This is not because I saw any lack in Wing Chun however. I did however see a long long time and a whole lot of work to break out of my prior training ad I simply did not want to do that at this stage of the game.

Also I still do very much like Wing Chun and I still do feel it is very effective. But I do not think a competition made just for Wing Chun people would help Wing Chun. I do believe that if those that were trained in Wing Chun would get into a bit of cross style sparing that would help wing Chun (or any style) immensely, if for no other reason than giving a Wing Chun person exposure to other attacks and other defenses and learning how to deal with them.

And before the beatings begin I would also like to say I have always felt a combination of Wing Chun and Judo would be a damn devastating combination in regular old fighting and in MMA competitions.

OK now to see if I am brave enough to click the "Submit Reply" button

 

[wushuguy]

I agree with Xue,

In part most any people will become "narrow minded" if their career of WC is limited to only vs WC and only against WC in their own school. This is not limited to WC, but in any art.

As martial artists, if we want to grow and improve our art, it isn't that we find the lackings in our style, but the lacking of understanding how to apply the principles and adapt to other situations.

If have the chance to hang out with martial artists from other styles, then it give one a chance to test the principles against something one isn't comfortable with. if need be, adapt, change something, etc. I think if one is good at putting the WC principles into use, then when faced with unknown situations, we can quickly grasp the mechanics of it and learn to incorporate that into our own movements. grappling with those principles in mind, it might not look like bjj, but look like some very interestingly applied wc.

that said, when i was studying WC, we had made kind of a fight club in our neighborhood, where the rules were fairly limited but safety still key, that gives people of all kinds of disciplines a chance to have a go and test their skills against other arts, as well as to grow. in this friendly competition setting we also did group fights, like 1 against 2,3,4,5. the 1 usually lost, but against group odds we measured our progress at how long it took to lose or how many of the group we can defeat before losing or giving up.

 

[chisauking]

You know, I love it when people challenge wing chun & its principles. It's what makes us grow. It makes us question the validity & effectiveness of this wonderful art...

However, if people were only a little 'truthful' in their 'conclusion' or how they arrive at their conclusion.

99.9% of all people that state wing chun isn't effective, it isn't complete, it lacks ground work, it needs western boxing, it needs BJJ, it needs AK47, (put what you think wing chun lacks here.............), didn't 'test' wing chun in the environment in which it was intended for; they tend to be people with only a superficial level of wing chun comprehension, people who'd probably learnt from a 13th or 14th generation wing chun coach.

In most cases, it tend to be people who's totally 'brainwashed' by tv programs, so they chop & change wing chun so much in order to 'test' wing chun in an environment & context in which wing chun was never meant to be used.

I would like to ask all the members who believe wing chun to be lacking in some way, how did you arrive at your 'concluson'? Did you have sufficient wing chun skills at the time of testing? Did you learn from a reputable teacher with actual combat experience? Were you 100% committed in applying wing chun, and were willing to do whatever it takes? Was the 'test' conducted under realistic conditions under combat rules?


xue sheng sez:I trained Wing Chun Briefly and I do honestly believe it works but the problem I see with a lot of Wing Chun today is what I have called...and this is where I am going to get into trouble.....what I have called the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance).

Two points I would like to address:

1) Wing chun is such a high level & profund art, it takes quite a lot of experience & time before one can truly comprehend & apply its tools. All too often, people with very little experience & actual time training with a good teacher, tend to make all sorts of silly statements.

2) The cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun people. In fact, many, many intelligent MMA people act in the same manner. They believe that the 'ring' is the gospel truth, and ALL fighting methods should be measured by its success in this way. They laugh at other people because their training model doesn't fit in line with the MMA model of training. They cite how unrealistic chisau training is, whilst training without shoes, wearing gloves, helmets, in a nicely padded ring, with a referee to stop the fight once someone taps out (as though this is in any way what happends in reality). They don't beleive a word of what people tells them, despite those people having many actual combat experiences.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1) Wing chun is such a high level & profund art, it takes quite a lot of experience & time before one can truly comprehend & apply its tools. All too often, people with very little experience & actual time training with a good teacher, tend to make all sorts of silly statements.

The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....

I do not doubt Wing Chun works and works well. However if all you ever do is test yourself against Wing Chun people and absolutely no one else you are going to have problems. He (my Sifu) could not figure out how to effectively defeat my Xingyiquan, he could only stop it. And that is not due to anything lacking in Wing Chun or his Wing Chun skill. It is because all he ever trained against was Wing Chun. If he and I or he and anyone else worked together using a style other than Wing Chun I have no doubt he would figure out, rather quickly, how to defeat it using Wing Chun (no other style added). But only seeing Wing Chun and only expecting Wing Chun you can end up with this deer in the headlights kind of thing when someone trained in another style uses said style against Wing Chun.

2) The cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun people. In fact, many, many intelligent MMA people act in the same manner. They believe that the 'ring' is the gospel truth, and ALL fighting methods should be measured by its success in this way. They laugh at other people because their training model doesn't fit in line with the MMA model of training. They cite how unrealistic chisau training is, whilst training without shoes, wearing gloves, helmets, in a nicely padded ring, with a referee to stop the fight once someone taps out (as though this is in any way what happends in reality). They don't beleive a word of what people tells them, despite those people having many actual combat experiences.

I think I said that already... that it was not exclusive to Wing Chun.... see

....the cult of Wing Chun (there is a similar Cult of Taiji by the way but they are much less likely to survive a fight unlike those in Wing Chun that I do believe would have a fighting chance)....

....Now I am not saying Wing Chun is the only style that does this, a lot of styles get into their own little cult type of thinking. The "my style is best" kind of thing so why should I waste my time training with someone else.

 

[Vajramusti]

A complex thread involving several different issues. Rather than making a long winded post- some opinions:

1. Wing chun is not about usinga fixed set of techniques- it's about training the wing chun person using key wing chun principle.

2 A wing chun person should be able to adapt to using gloves if gloves are used in a match. Working on devloping what is called short power IMO is the key.

3.Nothing wrong in working with wing chun against other styles.Developing experience doing it is the important thing. The key problem in using wing chun is that many people that I see have mot learned wing chun 101 well-the stance, the turns, the footwork, the horizontal and vertical positioning and developing timing.

 

[chisauking]

xue sez: The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....

csk: May I ask who your sifu was? I know sifu Yip ching's method very well, so in all probability I would know your sifu.

I do not doubt Wing Chun works and works well. However if all you ever do is test yourself against Wing Chun people and absolutely no one else you are going to have problems. He (my Sifu) could not figure out how to effectively defeat my Xingyiquan, he could only stop it. And that is not due to anything lacking in Wing Chun or his Wing Chun skill. It is because all he ever trained against was Wing Chun. If he and I or he and anyone else worked together using a style other than Wing Chun I have no doubt he would figure out, rather quickly, how to defeat it using Wing Chun (no other style added). But only seeing Wing Chun and only expecting Wing Chun you can end up with this deer in the headlights kind of thing when someone trained in another style uses said style against Wing Chun.

csk: This is a very common presumption. ALL good wing chun practitioners would have a good understanding of the working \ mechanics of movements & would have experiences with different styles. One does not need to have fought \ sparred with every system under the sun in order to be able to counter it. There are only so many ways people can enter your defence, and as long as you understand those permutations of attacks, you would have your lines covered.
I would like to ask you a simple question: Have you ever sparred or fought with an African tribesman? No? Then, does that mean you have NO answers to his method of attack?
If you can think on a higher level, wing chun works regardless of one's path of entry. Thinking of styles vs styles is low level thinking and is extremely limited.

Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

xue sez: The Sifu I trained with was highly skilled and well trained and had a good lineage and was an inside student and yadda yadda yadda whatever....

csk: May I ask who your sifu was? I know sifu Yip ching's method very well, so in all probability I would know your sifu.

I do not doubt Wing Chun works and works well. However if all you ever do is test yourself against Wing Chun people and absolutely no one else you are going to have problems. He (my Sifu) could not figure out how to effectively defeat my Xingyiquan, he could only stop it. And that is not due to anything lacking in Wing Chun or his Wing Chun skill. It is because all he ever trained against was Wing Chun. If he and I or he and anyone else worked together using a style other than Wing Chun I have no doubt he would figure out, rather quickly, how to defeat it using Wing Chun (no other style added). But only seeing Wing Chun and only expecting Wing Chun you can end up with this deer in the headlights kind of thing when someone trained in another style uses said style against Wing Chun.

csk: This is a very common presumption. ALL good wing chun practitioners would have a good understanding of the working \ mechanics of movements & would have experiences with different styles. One does not need to have fought \ sparred with every system under the sun in order to be able to counter it. There are only so many ways people can enter your defence, and as long as you understand those permutations of attacks, you would have your lines covered.
I would like to ask you a simple question: Have you ever sparred or fought with an African tribesman? No? Then, does that mean you have NO answers to his method of attack?
If you can think on a higher level, wing chun works regardless of one's path of entry. Thinking of styles vs styles is low level thinking and is extremely limited.

Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?

Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?

Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.

I don't see a cult attitude around "real" MMA competitors as much, although it does exist. Most of the time they are to busy training and looking for ways to win. However there is most definitely a MMA cult, a rather LOUD one, around the edges

 

[KamonGuy2]

Xue - you raise a good point and one that is extremely valid. There are a lot of cult wing chunners who believe that wing chun will save them in every scenario.

You also get people defending wing chun too much. Every style has its problems. I recently had an altercation with three guys where I used only wing chun and it was extremely effective. Yet I have also experienced altercatins where I have been taken to the floor, or pressed up against the hood of a car. Wing chun struggles in these environments.

I love it when people reply to that with a snobby comment such as - 'well, you obviously havent done enough wing chun' etc. That's nonsense. I have never seen a Sifu with better knowledge of wing chun than Kevin Chan and he says to use what works. Sure if you can fight using wing chun on the floor then great, although it rarely works.

At the moment there is no fighter in the UFC, Pride etc that uses just one art. Some will have a core/foundation art, but they will have trained other techniques as well. Those chunners who want to remain pure (often from the school of William Cheung or Leung Ting) are very misguided. If you are just looking to learn an art, then great, but to develop as a martial artist you need to eveolve your art and experience all different types of training

 

[wushuguy]

Lastly, I know you'd said the cult mentality isn't exclusive to wing chun practitioners, but I wanted to make clear that this 'mentality' isn't exclusive to traditional ways of training. It also applies to people who mix martial arts, but I never see any such claims directed at them.

i think that's because most traditional martial artists don't really care much about mma or take it seriously. mma is entertaining, and many do have a cult like thought, thinking mma is the best thing since peanut butter and jelly.

while having wing chun competitions might make some headway into the entertainment spotlight, i think if we keep doing martial arts with the self-defense attitude, there's no real need for competition, but it doesn't hurt to try out our skills against practitioners of other arts. it helps us to learn our own even better.

 

[chisauking]

wusuguy sez: while having wing chun competitions might make some headway into the entertainment spotlight, i think if we keep doing martial arts with the self-defense attitude, there's no real need for competition, but it doesn't hurt to try out our skills against practitioners of other arts. it helps us to learn our own even better.

csk: And this is my main point of contention, wushuguy. As I have already said, I'm all for sparring & testing with other styles, but how do we do it with mean is the question.

In my experience, I have found that unless you are committed, wing chun seldom works against agressive people from other styles, that's intent on getting through. For example, one of my friends that I've sparred with is a Thai boxer. Pound for pound, I've never met anyone that's as strong as him, and when he punches a pad, you can hear a loud crack around the room. During our sparring, I can stop all his attacks....I can ALWAYS kick his knee or gwai-garn him in the face, however, because we are friends, I don;t really want to hurt him, so I only use a small % of my power. Now, here's the problem. Because I don't 'finish' him, he always continue & hits me despit my stopping after I'd countered him easily, and it usually ends with an 'exchange of blows'. I know in my heart that if I were to use full power, he will go down. So, what do you do? Use partial power, and your opponent WILL get through. Use full power, and someone will end up in hospital. In fact, the last time we'd sparred, I got fed up with him continuing after I'd yet again stopped my attack, so I'd upped my power to the next level. I dropped him with a simple palm. Result? I've never seen him since. Believe it or not, I've lost quite a few friends in the past because I'd put them on the floor from chisauing.

Another good example is all those clips that you see of people being taken down. You see the guy trying to take his opponent down is 100% intent on acheiving his objective, whilst the other guy is playing the part of the wing chun mannequin, standing there just like a dummy, without attemting to resist the slightest.

All in all, I'm not saying wing chun is invincible, or trying to discredit other approaches. However, what I'm trying to convey is for anyone to judge or conclude whether a method is effective or not, they must use that method in the way & environment that it was meant to be use. They must be 'truthful' in their 'test'. One must use the punch in the way it was meant to be use; one must use the kicks with conviction, ready to inflict damage.

Take the example of taking a racing car for a test drive. If you test drive that car in a muddy field, how accurate would your assessment of that car's effectiveness be?

I hope all the people on this forum don't beleive a word I say. All you have to do is be truthful with yourself. Go and gwohsau without proctection, using heavy footwear, and you will find out whether the dynamics changes. Add conviction and intent, using the tools as it was meant to be used, and you will see for yourself the results.

But, be warned, injuries WILL occur and you might lose a few friends\sparring partners in the process.

 

[chisauking]

sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?

Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?


csk: Yes, when I was in my teens, I'd trained in western boxing. I think my coach was Mr Bankcroft, teaching at Worcester's boxing club. I gave up because I didn't like hurting\punishing my opponents.
I also took up Lau Gar kuen.

Although I love all martial arts, I only train exclusively in wing chun now, simply because that's the ONLY way for ME to reach my personal best in this wonderful method.
I've sparred with many people from different styles, as well as many people from different wing chun branches. I love to gwohsau with people, but I never do so in a 'ring' context, because in MY experience, wing chun doesn't work in this context and it will only end in an exchange of blows, which does nothing for the development of wing chun skills.

 

[Xue Sheng]

sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?

Do you currently train only Wing Chun and if so do you ever spar anyone form another style?


csk: Yes, when I was in my teens, I'd trained in western boxing. I think my coach was Mr Bankcroft, teaching at Worcester's boxing club. I gave up because I didn't like hurting\punishing my opponents.
I also took up Lau Gar kuen.

Although I love all martial arts, I only train exclusively in wing chun now, simply because that's the ONLY way for ME to reach my personal best in this wonderful method.
I've sparred with many people from different styles, as well as many people from different wing chun branches. I love to gwohsau with people, but I never do so in a 'ring' context, because in MY experience, wing chun doesn't work in this context and it will only end in an exchange of blows, which does nothing for the development of wing chun skills.

Well I am not sure if this post is for me or not since I am not sue shung but….

Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of “”xxx sez” is driving me nuts

Thank you and I was not talking about the ring, I was talking about training with other styles. And the fact that you do is a good thing. But my original point was that, although I know Wing Chun is effective, it is the propensity of some Wing Chun people to train only Wing Chun (which is fine) and train only with other Wing Chun people (which is OK too) and refuse to train with other styles because they feel Wing Chun is so good it would be a waste of time. But it is that "training with only Wing Chun people” bit that can eventually hurt them. Or at the least shock them when what they have trained doesn’t work against another style. And this is not a lack in the style it is a lack in the training. They have trained and trained to respond against attack A, B or C with response A, B or C but when attack D hits them they are lost.

But then, as I said before, not only fond in Wing Chun. It is just that I tended to run into it there more often.
.

 

[chisauking]

Xue Sheng sez: Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of “”xxx sez” is driving me nuts

csk: Well, it does help if I can read properly, lol.

In regards training exclusively with a select group of people, I'm afraid you get that with many people. They are too afraid to chisau outside of their own class, let alone spar with outside people.

I don't know why this is so, but I guess it's an ego thing. Once you 'cross hands' with other people, your skills will be revealed, so, in order to hid their level, they don't spar outside of class.

Strangely, once someone reach sifu\teacher level, they are even more reluctant to train in public.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng sez: Also I will apologize in advance but your responses in the script notation of “”xxx sez” is driving me nuts

csk: Well, it does help if I can read properly, lol.

In regards training exclusively with a select group of people, I'm afraid you get that with many people. They are too afraid to chisau outside of their own class, let alone spar with outside people.

I don't know why this is so, but I guess it's an ego thing. Once you 'cross hands' with other people, your skills will be revealed, so, in order to hid their level, they don't spar outside of class.

Strangely, once someone reach sifu\teacher level, they are even more reluctant to train in public.

If it is any consolation, many Taiji people are much worse and considerably more delusional


And before attacked from the Taiji side of MT I have been training taiji for over 18 years now

 

[geezer]

Originally Posted by chisauking: "sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?"

A boy named Sue!? LOL. OK, now that's pretty silly! LOL

But seriously now, for those of us who don't know a lick of Chinese (Cantonese or Mandarin) and were brought up in the pre-Pinyin era of "Wade-Giles" (sp?) romanization, How do you pronounce "Xue Sheng"? I always assumed it was something like "Shway"... and what does it mean?

I was talking about training with other styles. And the fact that you do is a good thing. But my original point was that, although I know Wing Chun is effective, it is the propensity of some Wing Chun people to train only Wing Chun (which is fine) and train only with other Wing Chun people (which is OK too) and refuse to train with other styles because they feel Wing Chun is so good it would be a waste of time...

I gotta side with Xue (however the heck you say it) on this one. I really enjoy training WC, but you've got to take the blinders off. At the risk of being trite, consider that well known quote from Sun Tzu dating back perhaps 2,500 years:

"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."

 

[Xue Sheng]

Originally Posted by chisauking: "sue shung sez: Do you or have you ever trained outside of Wing Chun?"

A boy named Sue!? LOL. OK, now that's pretty silly! LOL

OK, seriously now, for those of us who don't know a lick of Chinese (Cantonese or Mandarin) ant were brought up in the pre-Pinyin era of "Wade-Giles" (sp?) romanization, How do you pronounce "Xue Sheng"? I always assumed it was something like "Shway"... and what does it mean?



I gotta side with Xue (however the heck you say it) on this one. I really enjoy training WC, but you've got to take the blinders off. At the risk of being trite, consider that well known quote from Sun Tzu dating back perhaps 2,500 years:

"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."

My name is 'Sue'! How do you do

Well it is spelled Xue Sheng but it is pronounced Throat-Warbler Mangrove

Xue = Shway
Sheng - Shung
meaning = student

"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."

Exactly.. and oh so many in MA today do not understand this at all

 

[chisauking]

"If you know your enemy and yourself, you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy or yourself, you will succumb in every battle..."

It's all in the CONTEXT. Or, in other words, the ability to comprehend what's actually being said.

To me, knowing how to stop my opponent entering my door is enough, I don't need to learn the zillions of permutations once he's inside.

And, that's the biggest problem with the people who's concerned with style vs style. Just in China alone, there are 100s if not 1000's of different styles. How do one even begin to learn all the possible methods? How do we enter the minds of our opponents? How do you know all your potential enemies?

Learn to close your door, my friend.

 

[geezer]

Learn to close your door...

Curious, my wife said the same thing to me this morning when I was on the can.


As far as learning about the enemy, I think we all agree that it's not only unwise, but impossible to try to learn specific defenses for every possible attack you might conceivably receive. But it's reasonable to consider how to respond to the general strategies and energies you will encounter, and to use an eskrima term, the "angles" from which common attacks may come. If most attackers are likely to have had experience with such things as wrestling/grappling, boxing, muay thai, or even a football player's/rugger's sort of tackling and brawling, then it makes sense (to me at least) to address these things in your training.

 

[chisauking]

wrestling/grappling, boxing, muay thai, or even a football player's/rugger's sort of tackling and brawling, then it makes sense (to me at least) to address these things in your training. .......

Not to mention Mogolian boxing, Pakistani wrestling, ancient monkey boxing, turkish grappling, East end's head butting, korean boxing, dragon & phonix fist, lightning thunder foot, pan nam wing chun, veitnamese ving tsun, bing tsun, ling tsun, Chinese jade sword, jail fighting, mind & mental fighting, Shanghai water fighting, ping pong double fist, american football takedowns, basketball boxing, grass fighting, English pub brawling, Kurdish ninja rambling, etc., etc,



Good luck on your journey!