Reading Kanji?

[opr1945]

I was watching a utube video where a Japanese man was reading various kanji characters apparently written by individuals who were not masters in Kanji characters. He seemed to have issues translating into English. Similar to individuals translating Latin writing into modern English. Apparently, the words/characters do not easily translate into English. For example "donec mors non separat " means something like "only death separates us" or "until death separates us" or "death will separates us."

Similar, but not identical. Is this true for Japanese Kanji characters also?

 

[opr1945]

This is an example of difficulty translating language:

Translation help again, please

This is a number from my second (and last) black belt certificate. Google translate has alternately said "No. 8" and "No. 68." I have a feeling both are wrong. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance!

www.martialtalk.com

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'm not sure, but I think that for the most part, a statement made in Japanese has to be paraphrased (for lack of a better term) when translating it to English. I'm basing this on the fact that, in different Shotokan organizations for example, the English translation of the Dojo Kun - although conveying the same point - is worded completely different.

To illustrate:

Japanese:
一、人格 完成に 努める こと
一、誠の道を守ること
一、努力の精神を養うこと
一、礼儀を重んずること
一、血気の勇を戒むること

English translations:

ISKF
First, seek perfection of character.
First, be faithful.
First, endeavor.
First, respect others.
First, refrain from violent behavior.

JKS
First, strive for the perfection of character.
First, defend the paths of truth.
First, foster the spirit of effort.
First, honor the principles of etiquette.
First, guard against impetuous courage.

SKIF
First, seek perfection of character.
First, be sincere.
First, put maximum effort into everything you do.
First, respect others.
First, develop self-control.

So my guess is that when he reads the kanji, it's not merely a translation of words (the way it might be from French to English)... but he also has to formulate how to say them in a way that makes sense in English.

 

[Haruhiko]

Similar to individuals translating Latin writing into modern English. Apparently, the words/characters do not easily translate into English. For example "donec mors non separat " means something like "only death separates us" or "until death separates us" or "death will separates us."

That's Ecclesiastical Latin, which simplifies grammar for clarity, using mors (death) as the subject and a double negative (donec and non) to imply separation doesn't occur "until death". Classical Latin avoids this ambiguity by using direct expressions like donec mors nos separet ("until death separates us").

Similarly, Japanese shinjitai (new kanji) uses simplifications for accessibility, whereas Classical Latin aligns with kyūjitai (old kanji), prioritising precision and aesthetics.

I found this out the hard way by trying to read, interpret, and transliterate the 17th century writing Dokkodo with much frustration, assuming "of course the Japanese language hasn't undergone changes through the centuries, surely Romantic/Latin and Germanic languages are the only exceptions".

For individual kanji characters, it's a lot more explicit. The common trap is using the wrong kanji for the same phonemes, and there are syntax structures depending on the time period and context. English shares this feature and we call it code-switching.

 

[opr1945]

Okay that clears thing up for me. Thanks.

 

[Haruhiko]

Similarly, Japanese shinjitai (new kanji) uses simplifications for accessibility, whereas Classical Latin aligns with kyūjitai (old kanji), prioritising precision and aesthetics.

Okay that clears thing up for me. Thanks.

I wanted to correct myself: kyūjitai and shinjitai specifically refer to the kanji characters, not syntax. So my comparison between kyūjitai and classical Latin isn't really appropriate, given that Latin didn't simplify its characters (which is what kyūjitai -> shinjitai refers to). My mistake was comparing the evolution of kanji orthography to italic morphology.

A better comparison would be the history of morphological changes (and modern usage of older Japanese morphology in religious ceremonies and art) to Ecclesiastical Latin (similarly used in religious ceremonies and art), and Classical Latin (formal, direct).

The Japanese analogue to Classical Latin and Ecclesiastical Latin would be chūko-nihongo (c. 9th century to 12th century) and chūsei-nihongo (c. 12th century to 19th century) respectively.

 

[opr1945]

I thought that was probably what you meant. But, I didn't want to point it out in public, Thanks. opr1945

 

[Cri70]

I was watching a utube video where a Japanese man was reading various kanji characters apparently written by individuals who were not masters in Kanji characters. He seemed to have issues translating into English. Similar to individuals translating Latin writing into modern English. Apparently, the words/characters do not easily translate into English. For example "donec mors non separat " means something like "only death separates us" or "until death separates us" or "death will separates us."

Similar, but not identical. Is this true for Japanese Kanji characters also?

No idea for Kanji, but for your example I think that's more of an English-speaker issue.

The translation to Italian is pretty clear and very literal, we have the same expression in regular use: " finché morte non ci separi" - "only when death will separate us".

It's said for example when you marry someone in the traditional catholic ritual, or even jokingly when you're doing something "adventurous" in some form,

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was watching a utube video where a Japanese man was reading various kanji characters apparently written by individuals who were not masters in Kanji characters. He seemed to have issues translating into English. Similar to individuals translating Latin writing into modern English. Apparently, the words/characters do not easily translate into English. For example "donec mors non separat " means something like "only death separates us" or "until death separates us" or "death will separates us."

Similar, but not identical. Is this true for Japanese Kanji characters also?

This is true of many Asian languages. And you can add in the reflex Americans (and probably others) have to assume that if it sounds similar to an American word, it probably means the same. One of my tattoos includes the Latin "Urino Donec Mortalis". Many people assume a translation of "urino" If they know anything about diving, they tend to assume it's a joke about peeing in your wetsuit. What it actually means is "dive till you die".

Korean (and I believe other Asian languages) are subject-object-verb, English is subject-verb-object. And many many things do not translate directly. A good example is the term Kwanjangnim which is commonly used in America to mean Grandmaster. It doesn't. Kwanjang means "my gym" or "gym owner". The -nim suffix is a sign of respect. Much the same thing happens with "Sabumnim". Sabum means "teacher". Adding the -nim makes it "respected teacher. One may well say "I am Sabum for this class", but using "Sabumnim" when referring to yourself is kind of rude.