On the removal of grappling from Shotokan

[Makalakumu]

And therefore all the more interesting!! So what's your take on that question?

A lot of it relates to the long standing hatred and out right racism the Japanese have had for the Koreans. Look at Mas Oyama, a Korean, who changed his name when he moved to Japan in order to be more Japanese. I don't see the Japanese teaching any more to the Koreans then to the Americans. In fact, there is such long standing animosity in the culture, it would probably make it down right impossible for a Korean to be accepted into the inner circles of Karate training.

This is why I think there probably isn't anything more to many of the TKD forms created in the Kwan era. I don't think they learned much more then punch/block/kick and were forced to cross train in order to round out their martial skills. IMO, this is why KMA curricula seem so scrambled. You've got all sorts of peices being drawn in from a number of different arts in order to fill in the holes. Sure, you can go back and reinterpret sections of forms that are similar to the classical hyung, but I maintain that the resemblance is probably coincidental.

Of course all of this relates to the topic of this thread. You've got information that is obviously being obfuscated about Karate through the 50s, 60s, and 70s. During this time, the hearts of many KMA's were forming and I do not think they had a clear picture of what karate was all about.

 

[chokimotobu]

An alternative argument that I believe was presented by Patrick Mcarthy was that Karate was modified to fit the Japanese mentality when it was brought from Okinawa. Rather than a complete fighting art, it was refined to a striking art because of an overall perfectionist attitude. The Japanese wanted to focus the art down to a basic form. I really can't do the argument justice. Try www.koryu-uchinadi.com Personally, i think the techniques were lost due to the proliferation of competition Karate, particularily in the University system, much in the same way Judo lost it's striking techniques. If you look at old Taekwondo, it does not contain a great deal of grappling unless it was brought in from Hapkido. The Korean instructors predominantly learned in the Universiy system along side Japanese rather than training with westerners. This would seem to say that the Japanese were not training in grappling techniques either.

 

[GBlues]

My understanding of karate from the books that I have read when I was younger, was that it was created as a way for the peasants to defend themselves against the samurai. Since the common folk were not allowed to own or even brandish swords, they came up with Karate-The way of the empty hand. That was always my understanding. However, since the inseption of so much grappling, in the UFC, and how everyone at the time was touting it as the greatest art since sliced bread. I began to wonder, if karate was the answer to jujitsu for the okinawans, why no grappling? It doesn't make any sense. Since the samurai for the most part were jujitsu practioners.

A possible scenario I thought of was, perhaps, the strike part of karate was never meant for fighting an unarmed opponent? Since it would be hard to fight an opponent with a sword on the ground. YOu wouldn't exactly want to shoot. You know what I mean, unless you disarmed him first. Then you could begin the grappling game. Perhaps it was no longer necassary to defend themselves from the samurai, because they were no longer in existance, or very scarce at that time, and the art was simply changed to reflect the fact that an era had passed? So maybe it had more to do with forward thinking, more than, I don't want to teach the Gweyelow, our secrets? Maybe grappling wasn't necassary to an art that could do the sam techniques against an armed opponent, just as well as an unarmed opponent. Just my thoughts.

 

[TimoS]

My understanding of karate from the books that I have read when I was younger, was that it was created as a way for the peasants to defend themselves against the samurai. Since the common folk were not allowed to own or even brandish swords, they came up with Karate-The way of the empty hand. That was always my understanding. However, since the inseption of so much grappling, in the UFC, and how everyone at the time was touting it as the greatest art since sliced bread. I began to wonder, if karate was the answer to jujitsu for the okinawans, why no grappling? It doesn't make any sense. Since the samurai for the most part were jujitsu practioners.

Oh dear, the myth of the brave peasants fighting barehanded against the vicious invading sword-wielding samurai again. That one's been busted a long long time ago. Also, jujutsu was never really the main art of the samurai, at least not when they were fighting wars.

 

[punisher73]

An alternative argument that I believe was presented by Patrick Mcarthy was that Karate was modified to fit the Japanese mentality when it was brought from Okinawa. Rather than a complete fighting art, it was refined to a striking art because of an overall perfectionist attitude. The Japanese wanted to focus the art down to a basic form. I really can't do the argument justice. Try www.koryu-uchinadi.com Personally, i think the techniques were lost due to the proliferation of competition Karate, particularily in the University system, much in the same way Judo lost it's striking techniques. If you look at old Taekwondo, it does not contain a great deal of grappling unless it was brought in from Hapkido. The Korean instructors predominantly learned in the Universiy system along side Japanese rather than training with westerners. This would seem to say that the Japanese were not training in grappling techniques either.

I think that another consideration is GF was trying to DISTINGUISH karate from other activities. If you show all the grappling and such it would look alot like Judo. If you want to compete against the sport of judo as something new and unique, you take out the grappling aspect of it and only train on the striking aspect of it.

 

[chokimotobu]

Perhaps Funakoshi was trying to distinguish it. I'm not saing I buy into Mcarthy wholeheartedly, I'm just presenting his ideas as one option. He certainly does know more than I do. I still think competition karate is the answer. The throws and takedowns that stayed in predominantly fit into competition rules. I certainly remain open to all ideas, as I am no expert.