reactions

[Kung Fu Wang]

So far, no one seems willing to address the theories, which might help explain many of the reactions.

Your "theory" such as:

Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force
An Jin (按劲): Pressing force
Cai Jin (采劲): Plucking force
Lie Jin (裂劲): Splitting force

are neither a striking skill nor a throwing skill. It's not that interested to discuss about it.

Anybody does

1. long fist "Cai Da" - block/grab/pull and punch,
2. PM "Gou Lou Cai Shou" - switch hands,
3. JowGa "Control hand" - as JowGaWolf has described.
4. Taiji "cloud hands"

all know what "Cai" is. If they train those drills, they will develop "Cai Jin".

This is why I always ask people, "Is Taiji the only MA system that you train?" Because if you only look at from the Taiji point of view, "Cai Jin" sounds like something special. But if you look at from general CMA point of view, "Cai" is just "common sense" and not much to talk about it.

 

[windwalker099]

Your "theory" such as:

It's not my theory; it's a theory that some use to explain their practices. There is a commonality between the theories of the teachers demonstrated in this thread, which they use to explain their practice.

are neither a striking skill nor a throwing skill. It's not that interested to discuss about it.

Of course not, it's the energy "jin" expressed within the movement , regardless of the movement itself.

Your explanation of Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force, is different from the way I explain and use it.
as is your idea of body unification. To understand why it's different one would have to read the theory its based on,
which allows for the demos that teachers use to show the differences..

Anybody does

- long fist "Cai Da",
- PM "Gou Lou Cai Shou",
- Taiji "cloud hands".
all know what "Cai" is. If they train those drills, they will develop "Cai Jin".

Offhand, I would say no, they would not, as outlined by the theories. You could express plucking force for example, to any movement, along with any of the other forces.

By showing all the teachers doing and saying the same things, the comparison is apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
And then asking why they’re not the same or to expect them to be the same.

thought the post might help illustrate the commonalities of methods of practice. That follow the same theories expressed in different ways.

thanks for all responses...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

By showing all the teachers doing and saying the same things, the comparison is apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

White cat or black cat, as long as it can catch mouse, it's good cat. Whether you may use long fist "Cai" or Taiji "Cai", as long as it works in the ring, or on the mat, it's good "Cai".

To reach to the goal, Taiji is not the only path. There are other paths. Of course, if Taiji is the only system that you train, it will be your only path.

 

[_Simon_]

Look, I really, really do think there is something to this. I'll never dismiss something completely but of course will remain skeptical and use critical thinking. It feels like this skillset would be something that could very well be taken advantage of and dramatised. I also feel like direct experience plays a part (without any sort of instructor bias/hero worship). Without having experienced this exactly, I do think there's something to it. And I'm very curious haha.

 

[windwalker099]

It feels like this skillset would be something that could very well be taken advantage of and dramatised.

There would be no point in doing so...
If some did or do,,,wouldn't make much sense.

However, different people do have different reactions. some more sensitive then others.
There is a reason for why this is so..that follows the basic theory..One thing to keep in mind.
The skill set is used regardless of touch or not....it's a little more then what is portrayed in the demos.

Henry Wang, offers some thoughts on this
teaches what he calls "search center" .

If we, as his students, choose to be insensitive and not respond to Master Wang’s energy, it is possible to resist it. But there is no point in such an attitude. The purpose of tai chi for us is to increase our body awareness and sensitivity, develop chi energy, and to improve our health.

would not agree with this....nor some of his conclusions,
did find his work interesting among others.

Cheuk Fung, calls it "field strength" testing

Student: Where does the field come from?
Master Fung: The field or aura is simply the radiation that we give off as living beings. Just like an electric motor generates an electro-magnetic field, our bodies also generate an energy field that surrounds us or, more accurately, is simply part of us.

Also interesting he has parts of it mixed in his own ideas departing from traditional Chinese theory.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei

A noted Wu style master, explains the relationship between the virtual field and body.

This teacher's view aligns with my view point.
can be used to explain the reactions that most question.

 

[_Simon_]

There would be no point in doing so...
If some did or do,,,wouldn't make much sense.

Ah well I can think of reasons... people that want to feel special, exclusive, like they know something others don't, or even to gain students, fame etc etc

However, different people do have different reactions. some more sensitive then others.
There is a reason for why this is so..that follows the basic theory..One thing to keep in mind.
The skill set is used regardless of touch or not....it's a little more then what is portrayed in the demos.

Henry Wang, offers some thoughts on this
teaches what he calls "search center" .


would not agree with this....nor some of his conclusions,
did find his work interesting among others.

Cheuk Fung, calls it "field strength" testing

Also interesting he has parts of it mixed in his own ideas departing from traditional Chinese theory.

Master Gao, Zhuang Fei


This teacher's view aligns with my view point.
can be used to explain the reactions that most question.

Very interesting, yep that all makes sense. Especially the sensitivity thing. Interacting with the field. I can see why people would be miffed when it doesn't work on everyone except students/those sensitive to it. It serves a particular purpose, and others project a different purpose onto it and then "dah streetz dah streetz" etc haha..

But I like the idea of fostering that connection and improving sensitivity.

Appreciate the explanation

 

[Same Trick]

Those with “sensitivity”, wouldn’t they be the ones that can yield or absorb this kind of force to their advantage or just neutralize it so nothing happens rather than being tossed around ?

 

[marvin8]

Henry Wang, offers some thoughts on this
teaches what he calls "search center" .

would not agree with this....nor some of his conclusions,
did find his work interesting among others.

Henry Wang Tai Chi School,

Can Master Wang direct his energy at an unwilling or unaware person and make them move? No

Per Casey Payne a student of Henry Wang on "search center,"

"The stuff in the video of me I can do to other martial artists to varying degrees. Doing it in a competitive/martial environment would never make any sense. That kind of stuff is always for demoing/practicing stuff....

I'm not sure why people are so focused on competitive/martial utility of this stuff. For any competitive situation it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format. As for martial utility, like in the streets, it would be completely useless in serious situations."

 

[windwalker099]

Per Casey Payne a student of Henry Wang on "search center,"

I like Casey's work, and have corresponded with him awhile back.
We were supposed to meet up in Taiwan, but somehow never managed to connect.

I'm not sure why people are so focused on competitive/martial utility of this stuff. For any competitive situation it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format. As for martial utility, like in the streets, it would be completely useless in serious situations."

Here's the problem: Casey is sharing his opinion based on his experiences, and I'm sharing my own experiences and opinions. We have different opinions, different experiences, and different teachers.

Heany Wang has not publicly demonstrated all the things my teacher did, nor have any of his students commented with the same reactions.

I did try to find his school in Taiwan, just as I did with some other teachers there, having an interest in their work, paying respect, etc.

As stated: this thread was not about affirming or denying the validity of the practices only pointing out the commonality between the teachers and the reactions of the students something that I've been studying for some 20 years now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Asked about the theory used to explain the videos..
not about the actions in the videos.

Trying to understand both you and KF Wangs view points...
before pointing out commonalties in the theories used by the teachers in their videos
and other teachers using the same methods based on the same theories..

Allow me to reitterat

If you don't see the difference, further discussion is pointless

 

[windwalker099]

Per Casey Payne a student of Henry Wang on "search center,"

I'm not sure why people are so focused on competitive/martial utility of this stuff. For any competitive situation it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format. As for martial utility, like in the streets, it would be completely useless in serious situations."

He is correct; this applies to any CMA or other martial arts entering the competitive "ring" environment. Not preparing adequately is asking for a bad outcome in most cases.

As for martial utility, there are anecdotal historical stories of its use by various masters. Whether these stories are true or not is not really a concern to me. Based on my experiences, I would not agree with his statement.

There were others who stopped my teaches place some active in MMA at the time,,ect..."interacting" with my teacher.

In those cases when asked to my teacher
"how would you like me to attack you " his answer was " try what ever you like"

To be clear.
Think of it, as a question, "what if I did this" with an "answer"

The way and how it works, is was not really explained or covered by Henry Wang, nor Casey.
As mentioned liked Casey's approach and his work. Seems like a cool dude to know.


There are some key aspects that Casey didn't touch on that enable it to work.
Those aspects outlined in the general theory by which it is thought to work.

 

[windwalker099]

Allow me to reitterat

the point of discussions is to discuss differences.

What is it that you feel you see that is different ?

maybe there is a middle ground
I can post what I feel is the same, you can post what you see is different.

You have still not answered why you don't agree with KF Wangs.
outline of Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force

saying "no" is not a discussion.

If your not here to "discuss" don't post .
Or make another thread...

If you are here to share your experience , thoughts

By all means, more then welcome to do so, as long as it's topic related.
Not about the teaches, or students.

 

[Xue Sheng]

the point of discussions is to discuss differences.

What is it that you feel you see that is different ?

maybe there is a middle ground
I can post what I feel is the same, you can post what you see is different.

You have still not answered why you don't agree with KF Wangs.
outline of Peng Jin (棚劲): Expanding force

saying "no" is not a discussion.

If your not here to "discuss" don't post .
Or make another thread...

If you are here to share your experience , thoughts

By all means, more then welcome to do so, as long as it's topic related.
Not about the teaches, or students.

You do like your emojis don't you.... you are also rather predictable in responses... can't take no for an answer eh.....ok...here we go.....

First, I am not here to teach, you don't know the differences, not my problem, not my concern, not my responsibility, and not wasting my time.... I don't discuss wuxia

as for disagreeing with Kungfu Wang.... about taijiquan, he and I generally disagree, not always, but most of the time, and he is aware of that..... not going to pursue that either, you asked a question, I answered....end of story

now... the "Don't post" bit...I let you get away with that in your other thread where you called me a troll, because I was trying to be nice.... I have no such inclination today.....so....you do not dictate who can and cannot post in a thread, nor do you dictate what they can or cannot post, as long as what they post follows the rules of MT, here is a link to those rules, I suggest you familiarize yourself with them...nice talking to you.....have a nice day

 

[windwalker099]

Those with “sensitivity”, wouldn’t they be the ones that can yield or absorb this kind of force to their advantage or just neutralize it so nothing happens rather than being tossed around ?

Good observation

Think of a bell that is struck by the clapper inside. Depending on the bell, the sound it makes can vary greatly, and in some cases, it might not produce much sound at all. The difference in sound is primarily due to the materials and shape of the bell.

The same could be said of the clapper, the object that strikes the bell. It is also affected by its material and shape.

We can refer to these components (the bell and the clapper) as "media."

The medium in this case is not the body directly, as pointed out in various theories. Instead, it is a field of energy thought to surround and be connected to the body, referred to as '气场' (qì chǎng) or 'field of qi.'

Looking at it through this lens can account for many of the phenomena and reactions people experience with practices based on this concept.

As all of the teacher's listed in this post, expressed the same theory in different ways.

For most people, their qi can be described as '散气' (sàn qì), meaning qi that is not harmonized within the body. Consequently, their '气场' (qì chǎng) may be quite small.

This means that the teacher may need to allow the student to borrow their qi, by being able to project it. The practice of doing this referred to as "凌空勁 Volley jin"

This what is being reacted with, depending on theory followed.

Teachers with high levels of skill are often reluctant to do this with outsiders, for fear of damaging them...
It's a lose , lose situation.

Once asked my teacher about this.
he said " if they are not sensitive to it, and I use to much, they may be damaged in such a way I can not help them.
If I don't use enough they will feel nothing. For those who have built up a good level of "qi" within them through MA practice or other means. They often are sensitive to it, and will react based on this sensitivity.

The concept is similar to how a judo player borrows the opponent's center of gravity to execute a throw, facilitating movements and techniques that might otherwise be difficult

 

[windwalker099]

I have no such inclination today.....so....you do not dictate who can and cannot post in a thread, nor do you dictate what they can or cannot post, as long as what they post follows the rules of MT, here is a link to those rules, I suggest you familiarize yourself with them...nice talking to you.....have a nice day

cool, thanks for the link.
you might want to check it out..

4.9 "Off-Topic" Posts:
4.5 Trolling / Inciting Conflict:

don't post here if you have nothing to say on topic.

yes have a. nice day..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Those with “sensitivity”, wouldn’t they be the ones that can yield or absorb this kind of force to their advantage or just neutralize it so nothing happens rather than being tossed around ?

That mean the teacher didn't teach his students right. If a teacher cannot produce good students, those kinds of videos can only hurt the teacher's reputation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As all of the teacher's listed in this post, expressed the same theory in different ways.

I disagree that a student cannot escape, yield, sticky, follow when his teacher demonstrates on him.

When I was a teaching assistant for my teacher's Chinese culture University SC class in Taiwan. One day he taught "shin bite, reverse shin bite, foot sweep" combo. My mind was not concentrated that day. When he applied the combo on me, I escape all of his 3 attacks (in front of his students). He then said, "try again". This time, when he applied "shin bite" on me, he controlled my leading arm. When I stepped back, I pulled him with me. He then used "twist and spring" to take me down.

That day, I have learned:

- To apply your skill against your teacher is 100% possible.
- If you grab on your opponent's arm, when he moves back, he will pull you with him (If you grab on your opponent's arm, your opponent can't push you away).

Since this thread is about "reaction", in this video, can you explain what's going on at:

- 1.10,
- 2.13,
- 2.38,
- 3.27?

 

[windwalker099]

Since this thread is about "reaction", in this video, can you explain what's going on at:

I can offer some observations...

From a demonstration in NYC in 1991, Gin Soon Chu, 2nd disciple of Yang Sau Chung (Yang Chengfu's eldest son), demonstrates.
dynamic pushing hands.

This teacher uses what they call "dynamic push hands" as a training method.
Whats going on at the time stamps listed, are examples of their practice in use.

Have seen his work before...One will notice at different points the student looks sick..

This also happened in our practice. At times, people would feel very sick after participating in demos. Most people didn't want to be in them because of this. Why it happens..

My teacher when asked about this said
"it's because. I can effect the "Qi" the way it runs in the body"

For most onlookers, they would naturally question it.
Having been on the receiving end of similar demos, there is no question in my mind—the student in the demo is not having a good day.

The reactions shown are similar if not the same
as shown here

少林气功内劲一指禅教程 SHAOLIN QIGONG NEIJIN YIZHICHAN
JIAOCHENG

"One finger qi gong"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can make someone to fall off a building/cliff without touching him. That will be a perfect murder, and no law can apply on you. Have this kind of "perfect murder" ever happened in ancient history?

If this skill is real, I will spend all my life saving to learn this skill.

 

[jks9199]

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