Gather and Release

[marvin8]

If we are speaking of Martial Arts then this would be high level. If we are speaking of Spirituality then it will be more about Yin/Yang. To be honest, I have never seen Yin/Yang discussions talk about fighting strategy or fighting in general.

I've explained/discussed multiple times yin-yang (e.g., push/pull, ward off/roll back) and fighting strategy with fighting clips. This may not be taught as deeply in TMAs than in combat sports.

A wrestler knows how to borrow force (Ying), and use force against force (Yang). He may not know the Ying/Yang theory.

If you only try to step. pull and throw your opponent, they can counter you. So, I push with sweep feint. As the opponent moves (e.g., recovery step), I step, pull and throw.

“If my opponent doesn't move, I do not move. The instant he moves, I am already there.”

https://imgur.com/8FUgEPO

A striker is trained to land his fist on his opponent's face. Why does he need to know Yin/Yang theory for?

Because, the opponent can counter you.

1. Sean (with pink hair) leads Aljamain by moving laterally (pull).
2. Sean feints, controls Aljamain's lead hand, kicks (push) and steps back (pull) to lure Aljamain's rear hand.
3. Aljamain tries to grab Sean's lead wrist and throw the straight left..
4. Sean extends Aljamain by stepping back (pull) then throws the right hand (push) knocking down Aljamain.

https://imgur.com/P27aR8w

 

[JowGaWolf]

All good questions...
Maybe looking at it from the other side might give another perspective

"The original intention of Chinese martial arts is to fight the enemy, " You would think that all of the weapons found in CMA would make it clear as to what the original intention of Martial Arts is.

I've explained/discussed multiple times yin-yang (e.g., push/pull, ward off/roll back) and fighting strategy with fighting clips. This may not be taught as deeply in TMAs than in combat sports.

Was this in response to someone else bringing up Yin/Yang? or did you initiate it? I know you and Wang have talked about it, but I don't remember if either of you started a discussion of Yin/Yang. I do remember you and Wang focused on push/pull and ward off/ roll back but not as a focal point of Yin/Yang and the meeting. You and Wang are application focused or at least that's what I see more of in your posts. I don't remember getting a Yin/Yang lesson from you two.

 

[Same Trick]

.
What makes Taiji, Taiji?
Whether one has to know the theory if they are trained in the method is debatable.
Wrestlers and boxers understand through practice.

Theory is only good for the context of understanding, not the understanding itself.



Outlines the understanding for the work you do..
Others may have a different understanding for the work they do.

In China, when they asked if one "understood" something it was expected that
one would show this through application or demonstration..


Good read

EXPLODING BODY-WEIGHT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WEAPON IN FIST-FIGHTING OR IN BOXING. Never forget that!

The Jack Dempsey paper is great, in important sene it ‘fall’ perfectly in line with for example Xing/Xinyiquan, but of course also all other martial arts.

The yin and yang of gravity and us working with it from the moment we’re born is so deeply rooted in us we mostly don’t think about it, so it might feel something a new thing when we encounter reasoning around it. Some overdo reasoning as if the ten thousand things are not enough, some reason to sound mysterious, and some reason like Jack Dempsey quite down to earthly

 

[marvin8]

Was this in response to someone else bringing up Yin/Yang? or did you initiate it? I know you and Wang have talked about it, but I don't remember if either of you started a discussion of Yin/Yang. I do remember you and Wang focused on push/pull and ward off/ roll back but not as a focal point of Yin/Yang and the meeting. You and Wang are application focused or at least that's what I see more of in your posts. I don't remember getting a Yin/Yang lesson from you two.

Yes. I did not write yin-yang per se. I would not say I gave a lesson. I replied organically in discussions with the principles of push/pull or ward off/roll back (yin-yang) applied in fights. Yin-yang are natural laws that can occur in fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes. I did not write yin-yang per se. I would not say I gave a lesson. I replied organically in discussions with the principles of push/pull or ward off/roll back (yin-yang) applied in fights. Yin-yang are natural laws that can occur in fighting.

yep. that's what I was referring to. I'm used to hearing it in that context. But when the conversation first starts with Yin/Yang in martial arts like this thread, there is no talk of application from the OP. If the OP wants to talk about the non martial arts aspect of it then that's fine. But as soon martial arts is mentioned then the context is martial arts and not just Philosophy.

This is always the reality regardless of what is being discussed. Name a subject or activity and you'll run into different development timelines. I don't believe in zero return on training. In terms on kung fu. If a person train kung fu or any other martial arts then there will be some level of ability and use that the person can obtain.

It won't take that long.
Improved teaching methods will often shorten learning time.

The concern should be focused more on the quality of the ability and how long it takes to reach that level of quality.

A student who doesn't apply martial arts techniques will be stuck with the mindset of 'This is how it's always done' because they lack practical experience.

On the other hand, a student who can apply martial arts techniques will discover new ways to apply techniques. It's like learning grammar—once you understand it, you can create new sentences beyond basic phrases like 'Hello, how are you. Learning martial arts is similar.

I do high sweeps and low sweeps. One day in sparring my teacher says "hmmm we were always taught to sweep very low." This statement was made in the context of seeing with his own eyes that the back sweep can be done in a higher stance. This is not how my teacher learned. But it is what I learned by training sweeps and foot hooks. I person who doesn't use sweeps will not come to the same conclusion on their own that "that sweeps can be done in a high stance."

If the student excels in application

Mods can you delete the last video and the statement below it. I thought I deleted that

 

[marvin8]

yep. that's what I was referring to. I'm used to hearing it in that context. But when the conversation first starts with Yin/Yang in martial arts like this thread, there is no talk of application from the OP. If the OP wants to talk about the non martial arts aspect of it then that's fine. But as soon martial arts is mentioned then the context is martial arts and not just Philosophy.

Shkar Sharif - Kung Fu Zone
Oct 24, 2024

In this video, we go beyond the surface-level discussions of Yin and Yang and take a deep dive into how these fundamental principles manifest in the body. Whether you’re a martial artist, practitioner of Qi Gong, or someone interested in Chinese philosophy, this video will offer unique insights into the intricate dance of these energies in our bodies - offering a perspective that is often overlooked.

James references the Taijitu and shows a martial application in pulling the opponent in then shoulder bumping (push)...

Flowboxer
Feb 6, 2022

In this video I'm giving some fight commentary and analysis on an informal tai chi push hands session, that turns in to what I can might be best described as a 'beat down'!

As I understand it the chap handing it out is Chen Village Taijiquan Combat Captain Wang Yan [王岩].

I have read comment on this suggesting that what is being demonstrated is ''not real tai chi chuan" as it is using "only external mechanics". That's not a debate I feel inclined to get into, BUT I do think there are a lot of good tai chi principles evident in Wang Yan's work that are missing from the work of his challenger. This is, I believe, a significant factor in the very one sided outcome.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Shkar Sharif - Kung Fu Zone
Oct 24, 2024

In this video, we go beyond the surface-level discussions of Yin and Yang and take a deep dive into how these fundamental principles manifest in the body. Whether you’re a martial artist, practitioner of Qi Gong, or someone interested in Chinese philosophy, this video will offer unique insights into the intricate dance of these energies in our bodies - offering a perspective that is often overlooked.

James references the Taijitu and shows a martial application in pulling the opponent in then shoulder bumping (push)...

Flowboxer
Feb 6, 2022

In this video I'm giving some fight commentary and analysis on an informal tai chi push hands session, that turns in to what I can might be best described as a 'beat down'!

As I understand it the chap handing it out is Chen Village Taijiquan Combat Captain Wang Yan [王岩].

I have read comment on this suggesting that what is being demonstrated is ''not real tai chi chuan" as it is using "only external mechanics". That's not a debate I feel inclined to get into, BUT I do think there are a lot of good tai chi principles evident in Wang Yan's work that are missing from the work of his challenger. This is, I believe, a significant factor in the very one sided outcome.

Good video. Both of them. The second one is why I say that push hands is not enough to understand fully. Push hands is like reading the summary on the back of a book.

I have read comment on this suggesting that what is being demonstrated is ''not real tai chi chuan" as it is using "only external mechanics".

I have found that comments like that are because people are confused with "tai chi for health" and "Taiji." People also don't understand "internal and external mechanics." For starters, "internal mechanics" do not show up on video. It's far too subtle to be recognized in that manner. I've experienced internal mechanics and just based on my experience, it's not something that can be easily seen as an outside spectator.

Most people who have experience it will tell others "That there was more going on than what it looked like." External mechanics is like getting punched in the face. It feels exactly like it looks. Internal mechanics is like a whisper that causes chaos. That guy in the video probably has a very good grasp on what it is and what it isn't after getting thrown around like he was.

 

[windwalker099]

I've experienced internal mechanics and just based on my experience, it's not something that can be easily seen as an outside spectator.

I would say "not something that most people would feel is real"

Most people who have experience it will tell others "That there was more going on than what it looked like." External mechanics is like getting punched in the face. It feels exactly like it looks. Internal mechanics is like a whisper that causes chaos. That guy in the video probably has a very good grasp on what it is and what it isn't after getting thrown around like he was.

Would not agree... Talks about push hand competition's

Put any high level grappler in there, and see what happens...
Get thrown around by any high level grappler and one might see or experience the same things
Engage with someone who has what are called internal skillsets....it's quite different...so different that most would
not believe it . Until they experienced it for themselves

also talks about the "Talk Hands" circle.
as mentioned here

Yin and Yang in the Kung Fu Body

an observation:

lots of talking, no demo
why ?

 

[Buka]

- A priest's job is to change a bad person into a good person.
- A MA teacher's job is to teach a student how to fight (I don't like the term "self-defense").

A priest’s job is to change a bad person into a good person?

You’ve obviously never lived in Boston.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Put any high level grappler in there, and see what happens...

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

lots of talking, no demo
why ?

That's a question for those who practice it. I've always trained Jow Ga principle but sometimes Taiji Chuan principles show up. The little I know flickers on and off I may have 3 videos clips of those flickers during sparring. If I trained Taiji Chuan like I train Jow Ga then I would definitely have more.

As far as Yin and Yan. I can find that concept much easier within my sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

lots of talking, no demo
why ?

 

[windwalker099]

windwalker099 said:
Put any high level grappler in there, and see what happens...

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Put any high level grappler in with the Chen guy it would look different.
Put a non grappler with a high level grappler, the demo would look the same...

Not saying the Chen guy is not skilled...

Flowboxer: As I understand it the chap handing it out is Chen Village Taijiquan Combat Captain Wang Yan [王岩].

Who is the "chap" handing it out to ?
Is he handing it to a student attending a seminar,
a grappler, or a challenger of equal or better skill ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Put any high level grappler in with the Chen guy it would look different.
Put a non grappler with a high level grappler, the demo would look the same...

Not saying the Chen guy is not skilled...

It would look different, but the same internal action will be going on. Here's what I learned from my Tai Chi classes. "To be more aware of subtle changes."

This same skill set that I use on the beginner is the same skill set that I will use on a skilled grappler. It's the same skill set that I use to defend against @Tony Dismukes when he's trying to seek a clinch. It's the same skill set that I use with a newbie that I teach. How I sense movement and balance is a foundation. It's not something that I turn on or off. Hitting hard would be something I turn on or off. Hitting hard is not a foundation. Punching structure is a foundation and it exists regardless of how hard or soft I hit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Who is the "chap" handing it out, handing it to ?

DanDaWolfman is the wrestler. I believe (if my memory is correct) I want to say than Dan spoke about the event and what was going on. It was a friendly exchange and not a challenge fight. I tried to find the video where Dan talked about it

DanTheWolfman

Martial Arts & Handgun Reviews! Self Defense PRODUCTS YOU NEED LINKS BELOW! DanTheWolfman 38+Yrs Martial Arts/4 Black Belts/Professional MMA Movies TV Shows Stunt Stunts Fighting! Learn from my knowledge in various martial arts with the best fighters, fight teams, and instructors I could find...

www.youtube.com

The person doing the tossing is Chen Ziqiang

Students attending a seminar, grapplers, challengers, of equal skill or better ?

skill set that he up against varies. You would need to watch a few of his videos to see.

 

[windwalker099]

It would look different, but the same internal action will be going on.

What internal action would that be?

We might use different metrics for what "internal" means and its usage.

IME, grapplers I've encountered don't have the same understanding of internal concepts,
nor can they consciously use them to the same depth as those whose training is based on it.
As would be expected, they do use many of the same aspects.

For some people not having experienced practitioners having a high level of internal
development might feel they are the same...

Chinese Martial Arts

All Chinese Martial Arts (CMA) are considered internal due to the cultural context from which they originated, expressed in different ways. Most traditional styles have subsections or sets that focus specifically on developing their internal aspects, which are integrated into the overall framework of the style.

However, these traditional styles are not the same as those styles that are specifically based on what has been labeled as internal development. The theory and skill sets developed in them can be quite different.

The distinction between internal and external, often debated.
For those I know, this distinction primarily serves as a rationale for training, helping to understand the expected outcomes.

Internal and external training methods do not necessarily lead to one another, as they are both expressions of the same concepts, trained in different ways, leading to different outcomes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It would look different, but the same internal action will be going on. Here's what I learned from my Tai Chi classes. "To be more aware of subtle changes."

This same skill set that I use on the beginner is the same skill set that I will use on a skilled grappler. It's the same skill set that I use to defend against @Tony Dismukes when he's trying to seek a clinch. It's the same skill set that I use with a newbie that I teach. How I sense movement and balance is a foundation. It's not something that I turn on or off. Hitting hard would be something I turn on or off. Hitting hard is not a foundation. Punching structure is a foundation and it exists regardless of how hard or soft I hit.

In regard to using the same skillset of sensing movement, it's easier to get away with it when my opponent is bad at it and when they can't tell that I'm "watching their movements" It's more difficult when someone is skilled enough to pick up that you are paying attention to their movements. It's like being a spy. The first one whose cover is blown, is the one that will be at a disadvantage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We might use different metrics for what "internal" means and its usage.

I really hate the term "internal". In another thread, someone said, "If you train internal 10 days and then train external 1 day, you are no longer internal. It's like a vegetarian who eats vegetable for 10 days and on the 11th day, he eats meat. That person can no longer claim that he is a vegetarian."

"Internal" guys think they are pure blood, and external guys are all mudblood.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What internal action would that be?

We might use different metrics for what "internal" means and its usage.

I will give the most basic meaning
Internal action happens inside. External happens outside.

Here's the path from me to another person in the context of a punch.
Internal -> External -> External -> Internal

Internal = Energy used to create the punch before any external movement is used. This is internal action that cannot be seen.
External = The external creation of a punch. This is the action that people can see. it is the physical formation of the punch.
External = The physical reaction from the impact of the punch.
Internal = The internal reaction how the body responds internally. Does it hurt? does it cause muscle spasm, does it damage confidence or create fear.

There is much more to it than this, but when reduced to the basics, this is the meaning. At this level I can show that it exists

IME, grapplers I've encountered don't have the same understanding of internal concepts,
nor can they consciously use them to the same depth as those whose training is based on it.
As would be expected, they do use many of the same aspects.

I'm not sure how you expect them to use it, but from my experience. Half of the match is internally and half is external. Even if no punches are being thrown, the battle is being fought.
Internal Energy is what is going on here before the first strike. Almost a minute of internal fighting had been going on before the first external strike. Their energy follows the path that I describe above.

High level wrestling. Looking the first minute of action. There is a lot of "internal and external action going on here." It doesn't seem like it, but they are detecting balance shifts and weaknesses at a fast pace. I know this from sparring with my brother. Whatever we see visually, is like 5 times as much going on internally.

The snap down covers internal concepts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I really hate the term "internal". In another thread, someone said, "If you train internal 10 days and then train external 1 day, you are no longer internal. It's like a vegetarian who eats vegetable for 10 days and on the 11th day, he eats meat. That person can no longer claim that he is a vegetarian."

This would actually go against the concept of yin-yang. To be 100% internal means nothing is released Taiji Chuan teaches both internal and external. Breathing would be the most basic of "Gather and release" and "internal and external." All CMA forms are gather and release, internal and external.

I cannot create a punch with "internal" energy only.

 

[windwalker099]

I will give the most basic meaning
Internal action happens inside. External happens outside.

My metric is based on what one can do, not on what one can write about.
All Chinese martial arts are internal.
The distinction that I and others in my circles use is one that delineates the expressions of it.

Some of my experience,

Many yrs ago I had visited Master Lin, A (Nian) Long and his group with some of my taiji students from the US some of them borne in Taiwan acting as translators. He graciously demonstrated his 凌空勁 Volley jin, practice on his students while explaining different points of the demo….

when I speak of "internal" it's from this perspective

I really hate the term "internal". In another thread, someone said, "If you train internal 10 days and then train external 1 day, you are no longer internal. It's like a vegetarian who eats vegetable for 10 days and on the 11th day, he eats meat. That person can no longer claim that he is a vegetarian."

"Internal" guys think they are pure blood, and external guys are all mudblood.

For me, the use of the term "internal" is rather new.
In the 70s, we used the word "Qi" to describe why something happened.

Practices that were not Chinese did not use this concept and were labeled as external.

All Chinese martial art's are internal
The distinction internal / external was based on what and how something was trained,
not on what was better or worse.

For example, "you" trained in "Iron Palm,"
this would be classed as an internal/external practice, based on internal principles.

Whether one believes in "Qi" or not, it is thought to be a major component in the development of these practices.