reactions

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the term "reaction" is too abstract.

If you

- stab a knife toward your opponent, your opponent jumps back.
- hold a gun at your opponent, your opponent raises his arms.

It doesn't mean that you make your opponent jump back or raise his arms because your Qi power.

 

[windwalker099]

If this skill is true, I will spend all my life saving to learn this skill.

no need....

You should be able to find the PDF online.
Try it out, as part of your practice.

Practiced this a long while back. 94-95
The requirement at that time from the teacher was to be able to sit in a horse stance for 30 minutes before he would teach you.

The practice took too much time to run through it. Didn't stay with it..
Have revisited it from time to time. Thought some of it might be a good introduction before working with people on Taiji directly.

Taiji is said by some to be a "martial" qigong, depending on the focus and practice.

good luck

Shaolin Internal Power One Finger Zen (Clear Version) Teaching - Wang Ruiting Lecture Demonstration

 

[Same Trick]

Good observation

Think of a bell that is struck by the clapper inside. Depending on the bell, the sound it makes can vary greatly, and in some cases, it might not produce much sound at all. The difference in sound is primarily due to the materials and shape of the bell.

The same could be said of the clapper, the object that strikes the bell. It is also affected by its material and shape.

We can refer to these components (the bell and the clapper) as "media."

The medium in this case is not the body directly, as pointed out in various theories. Instead, it is a field of energy thought to surround and be connected to the body, referred to as '气场' (qì chǎng) or 'field of qi.'

Looking at it through this lens can account for many of the phenomena and reactions people experience with practices based on this concept.

As all of the teacher's listed in this post, expressed the same theory in different ways.

For most people, their qi can be described as '散气' (sàn qì), meaning qi that is not harmonized within the body. Consequently, their '气场' (qì chǎng) may be quite small.

This means that the teacher may need to allow the student to borrow their qi, by being able to project it. The practice of doing this referred to as "凌空勁 Volley jin"

This what is being reacted with, depending on theory followed.

Teachers with high levels of skill are often reluctant to do this with outsiders, for fear of damaging them...
It's a lose , lose situation.

Once asked my teacher about this.
he said " if they are not sensitive to it, and I use to much, they may be damaged in such a way I can not help them.
If I don't use enough they will feel nothing. For those who have built up a good level of "qi" within them through MA practice or other means. They often are sensitive to it, and will react based on this sensitivity.

The concept is similar to how a judo player borrows the opponent's center of gravity to execute a throw, facilitating movements and techniques that might otherwise be difficult

I don’t really understand your bell theory, but if it’s about sound waves there can be something to it. Light waves, radio wave, micro waves…and so on…there might be more wavy expressions out there.

I’ll expand a little on my previous post. Perhaps those(most people ?) who are absolutely unaffected by these force “attacks” perhaps has a inbound defense against such, something similar as immune system? As such one could say perhaps most people are already kind of high level in this field, at least in the sense of defense?

 

[windwalker099]

Perhaps those(most people ?) who are absolutely unaffected by these force “attacks” perhaps has a inbound defense against such, something similar as immune system? As such one could say perhaps most people are already kind of high level in this field, at least in the sense of defense?

If you examine the theory, it would answer your and other's questions regarding this.
It is said the 3 external combines with the 3 internal.

.

combine making the 6 Harmonies" (六合, liù hé)
How this is done and function depends on the focus of the practice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

combine making the 6 Harmonies" (六合, liù hé)

Do you agree with "elbow coordinate with knee"? Most WC systems don't follow this principle.

 

[windwalker099]

I don’t really understand your bell theory,

Not a theory, an analogy.
In this case what acts on what...

it was an attempt at explaining what is interacting with what..
Qi reacts with Qi
force reacts with force ect.

Probably not a very good one...

wave theory "waves primarily transport energy and not force"
Might be a good way of looking at it...

 

[windwalker099]

Do you agree with "elbow coordinate with knee"? Most WC systems don't follow this principle.

Yes, but maybe not in the way you might mean it..

A "wing chun" article examining this viewpoint.

Even today many of the classical Chinese martial arts contain the term
“Liu He” (“six harmonies”)

a taiji master's perspective .

Now INTENTION, QI... is the key point. So now when an action is done, what’s we add in?

As everyone said we must “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”. Shoulder and waist, Hand and foot, elbow and knee, after placed,

the “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION” Cooperated.

When you release it, it will be "INNER THREE COOPERATION”

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, but maybe not in the way you might mean it. A "wing chun" article examining this viewpoint.
Even today many of the classical Chinese martial arts contain the term
“Liu He” (“six harmonies”)

What's the way that you mean, "elbow coordinate with knee"?

You WC article says, "elbows are often kept in line with (directly over) one’s knees". This doesn't say that "elbow needs to coordinate with knee - move at the same time, stop at the same time". Also when a WC guy applies a throw, his elbow will not be directly over his knee".

So, I don't understand why this WC article has answered my question.

External Harmony 2:​

The second external harmony is the Elbows and Knees harmony. This is about their alignment relative to each other. In order to maintain maximum biomechanical structure, the elbows need to be directly above or inside the knee line. The relationship between the elbows and knees is similar to that of the hips and shoulders. At its simplest, elbows are often kept in line with (directly over) one’s knees in order to optimise the strength of one’s physical structure. The elbows are also driven by the shoulders and the knees are driven by the hips.

However, it is important to remember that correct structural alignment extends beyond the physical placing of one limb in space relative to another. This is the basic starting point of the beginner student which must develop from placing the elbow a fist distance from the body for correct positioning, to correctly understanding the structural integrity of the back, neck, using the correct muscles to straighten the back but allow the shoulders to be relaxed to allow the arm to hang (through gravity) and travel through the power-line as a result of ‘forwarding’ into the correct position. As such, it is key that the developing student be made aware that understanding the position is a first rung on the ladder, and the second step is to properly learn how to get the limb into position using the correct structure and muscle / tendon / ligament forces of the Yin / Yang centreline downward and outward forces.

 

[windwalker099]

What's the way that you see, "elbow coordinate with knee"?

[太极拳] 太极拳 松胯与外三合 Taijiquan: Loose Hip and External Three Harmonies

This might be more clear..

Click on CC for English translation

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

太极六合出真功，对拉力？1分钟了解太极拳内外三合（TaiChi）

ai Chi Six Combinations are a real skill, against tension?
Learn about Tai Chi's Internal and External Three Combinations in 1 minute

​

Do you agree or disagree "elbow coordinate with knee mean both move at the same time and both stop at the same time"?

In this video,

- the right elbow coordinate with the right knee.
- the left elbow coordinate with the left knee.

Both start to move at the same time. Also, both stop at the same time.

 

[windwalker099]

Do you agree or disagree "elbow coordinate with knee mean both move at the same time and both stop at the same time"? In this video,

- the right elbow coordinate with the right knee.
- the left elbow coordinate with the left knee.

Both start to move at the same time. Also, both stop at the same time.

movement I agree with.

You practice is based on your experience

Whether I agree with something or not is irrelevant to ones own practice.
Your video's help to understand your practice.

Our practices are not based on the same concepts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our practices are not based on the same concepts. ... movement I agree with.

Which concepts are your practices base on?

Since you agree with me on the "movement". At 1.50 in this video, do you think his elbow coordinates with his knee?

 

[marvin8]

Do you agree or disagree "elbow coordinate with knee mean both move at the same time and both stop at the same time"?

In this video,

- the right elbow coordinate with the right knee.
- the left elbow coordinate with the left knee.

Both start to move at the same time. Also, both stop at the same time.

However, you violate your interpretation of 6-harmony principle. Because, your hand is moving, but your foot is not.

The hand should coordinate with the foot. When your hand is moving, but your foot is not, you just violate the 6-harmony principle.

- hand coordinate with foot.
- elbow coordinate with knee.
- shoulder coordinate with hip.
- ...

When you freeze your low body and only punch with your arm, your hand, elbow, shoulder have nothing to coordinate with. All MA guidelines are thrown out of window.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

However, you violate your interpretation of 6-harmony principle. Because, your hand is moving, but your foot is not.

Not all drills are suitable to train 6H for beginners.

This is why I only address the "elbow and knee coordination". Sometime your feet are not moving, but your hands are acting (such as keyboard typing). The "shoulder and hip coordinate" sometime is too small to be recognized.

Hand and foot coordination can be seen in this clip - left hand coordinate with right foot, right hand then coordinate with right foot.

 

[Same Trick]

I can offer some observations...



This teacher uses what they call "dynamic push hands" as a training method.
Whats going on at the time stamps listed, are examples of their practice in use.

Have seen his work before...One will notice at different points the student looks sick..

This also happened in our practice. At times, people would feel very sick after participating in demos. Most people didn't want to be in them because of this. Why it happens..

My teacher when asked about this said
"it's because. I can effect the "Qi" the way it runs in the body"

For most onlookers, they would naturally question it.
Having been on the receiving end of similar demos, there is no question in my mind—the student in the demo is not having a good day.

The reactions shown are similar if not the same
as shown here

That text seem to talk about progress of pressure levels in PH trading, nothing unique to TJQ, many MA’s teach beginners-intermediate-advanced sparring methods each preparing for next level.

In the text the author explains the student should try not feeling afraid during pressure training. Such feeling can easily transform into physical uneasiness and one may feel ill in some or another way, I think a ‘kind of mind-stomach’ connection is common. So it’s more a situation of the students own mental state that affects her/his own “qi”

And in the text it’s mentioned that students particularly during demos could become feel sick. I’ve participated in many demos and I can tell its more about being in the spotlight rather than any teacher’s qi-power that affect the qi in the participant.

 

[Same Trick]

If you examine the theory, it would answer your and other's questions regarding this.
It is said the 3 external combines with the 3 internal.

View attachment 32186. View attachment 32187

combine making the 6 Harmonies" (六合, liù hé)
How this is done and function depends on the focus of the practice.

Yes this I wrote about in that other thread on push hands. A person through her/his posture how one physically hold oneself can have an effect on how ppl view that person, and our body is the vesicle of our mind, so our postures and moves can have affect on onlookers especially those who one may face directly

 

[windwalker099]

Which concepts are your practices base on?

Since you agree with me on the "movement". At 1.50 in this video, do you think his elbow coordinates with his knee?

To be clear the movement I agreed with was shown in this video
No comment on the video of your practice.

Our practices are different, based on different concepts. Part of this thread is about differences in methods and the theories they are based on. It is an attempt to show the commonalities between those who follow these methods and the reactions they can elicit using them.


opening post

"I thought it might be interesting to see different teachers using the same concepts explained in different ways in their demonstrations."

 

[windwalker099]

And in the text it’s mentioned that students particularly during demos could become feel sick. I’ve participated in many demos and I can tell its more about being in the spotlight rather than any teacher’s qi-power that affect the qi in the participant.

This happened with a friend of mines student, a taiji teacher, visiting form Hawaii .

In watching my teacher show his work, they wanted to feel some of it.
What is written, a translation Chinese to English, by another friend of mine, her observation.
She just meeting our teacher for the first time.

"Slowly, we got to know the old man well. He asked Bill to stand by the pine tree next to the iron frame, about 5 meters away from him. I was next to Bill, and let my left hand go up, and put it on Bill's right chest.

He drew a circle on Bill's chest with one hand, and my left hand felt like it was being circled by a hot electric current, but I was fine, Bill frowned where he was covering his chest.

Later, the old man rubbed him and said that he would be fine after a night's sleep. I asked him the next day and he said it didn't hurt anymore. This is the famous empty energy of Mr. Zhang, which transmits energy through the air."

A little clarification of the translation:

They asked about the "凌空劲 (Língkōng jìn) Volley Jin," commonly referred to as "Kong Jin."

Bill, a big Hawaiian guy and former police officer, was a student of my friend who teaches Taiji in Hawaii. Curious about the demonstrations he had seen, Bill asked if he could feel it.

Normally, my teacher didn't demonstrate this with outsiders, especially "foreigners."
They could have unknown health problems and be damaged from the interaction.

I was surprised when he smiled and asked Bill to stand by a pine tree about 15 feet away. My teacher asked another student, a friend of mine, to place her hand on Bill's chest. He then drew a circle in the air with his finger, pointing at Bill's chest.

She reported feeling heat, Bill started to sweat and feel sick.

My teacher stopped, everyone laughed, and we continued with other interactions, hands-on demos, Q&A through those that could speak English acting as translators. A good, day.
As normally was with our teacher...just a another old man, practicing taiji in the park.

As mentioned, the feeling from the interactions, depending on the type, often left one feeling sick. Among us, it wasn't always a good idea to be chosen for a demo, depending on what it involved.

I questioned my own reactions for some five years, trying to reconcile them with commonly expressed viewpoints.
Eventually, I gave up. What happens, happens.

At that point, instead of focusing on trying to explain to myself what was happening.

I just practiced.

 

[Buka]

I’m going to mix some up now to go with a platter of Chi balls. Good football snacks for the early games.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Our practices are different, based on different concepts.

What's the difference?

A: Do you agree with my 6H requirement?
B: My practice is different.
A: But you still have not explained what your difference is.

In this video, you can see his

- left hand coordinate with his left foot (left hand pull, left foot spin),
- right-hand coordinate with his right foot (right hand push back, right leg kick back).

Without 6H, this technique will be too complicated to train (4 separate forces). With 6H, the training difficulty has cut in half (2 separate forces).

The 6H principle is just too important to be emphasized in the throwing art training. It cuts the training difficulty into half.