Rate these Systema players

[SilatFan]

"Your logic is a bit off but that's not the point."
I can believe that but could you point out specifically how?



"Systema is not so much what you do but is more of how you do it."
I thought I understood that but the 'how' guys were moving looked different to me from what I've seen so I asked BobP to explain to me what I wasn't understanding. He said I got to work with somebody in person. I think I thanked him for his answers & his time. Should I have said something else?



"Systema does have a 'signature' look but the hands down thing is NOT it :lol:."
The 'signature' is what I asking to have pointed out to me.



"At the same time the look is very individualistically influenced by the practitioners’ strengths."
Which is why I asked BobP if the Systema practitioner, in the video he provided, had a grappling background and if that was why his movement appeared different from how I've seen VV & MR move (i.e. it looked like a grappling match & not what I've seen VV & MR do in the videos I had seen). Incidently, those videos are 'Master of fighting', 'knife defenses', an older one called the foundation package (split into upperbody & lowerbody), VV's book and the newest video 2 disc set. I have liked what I've seen and thought enough about it to buy more. But I don't get why when I ask *specific* questions about a guys movement (like 'I don't get it what am I missing that looks like Sub Wrestling' or 'what did he do that you would call systema' or 'what should I look for that you would call classic systema technique/concept/tactic') those questions are ignored or I get an answer with basically what I asked.
Like:
Q: "'what should I look for that you would call classic systema?"
A: "Systema does have a 'signature' look but the hands down thing is NOT it."
Well OK but then what is?

If you don't know the answer thats fine. If you dont want to answer thats cool to but don't waste our time running in circles with answers like that. Just let the thread die. If I get the chance I'll go to a seminar with VV like you suggested. Maybe I'm just to thick headed to understand on this medium.

 

[MattW]

In regards to the clip of a systema practitioner sparring a vale tudo guy:

To me, the thing that appears most systema is the way he moves around the guy at the beginning so that when the guy attacks, he is in prime position to land that nice crack to the jaw. The systema breaks down from there when he decided to square off the guy, landing him in a shoot, then grappling on the ground...all while squared off with the guy, something Systema avoids.

 

[Mark Jakabcsin]

But I don't get why when I ask *specific* questions about a guys movement those questions are ignored or I get an answer with basically what I asked.

Welcome to Systema. While your questions may seem simple and straight forward to you, that is probably not the case. I haven't watched the clip in question since my antique computer won't support it but judging from your questions I can see why you aren't getting the straight answer you desire. Basically you are trying to fit Systema into a neat little box or paradigm with a label on it that reads 'Systema inside'. Such an approach simply doesn't work. The more someone trains the more he/she understands the truth to that view, hence the answers you have received likewise reflect this truth.

Furthermore, the best Systema lessons are those that are figured out by the student. Some might even say the only lessons learned are those that are self taught. Instructors create opportunities to learn and demonstrate the possibilities but it is truly up to the student to learn it or not. Frequently it takes exposure to multiple opportunities before a student can begin to understand, and even then that understanding WILL change over time. Change - the only constant in life.

As for seminars in your area (what ever that may be) also check the Announcement Board section on Vladimir's site for seminars taught by his instructors. Between Vladimir's seminars and his instructors they cover a large area every year. You may want to post your general area as a few of us also travel on business regularly and could maybe meet you during one of these trips. Last month I meet with some guys in south Jersey that had an interest and we had a great time training. Just some suggestions. Take care.

Mark J.

 

[BobP]

"Do you know if there is somewhere that you can point me to where there is video of Systema practitioners “sparring” in real time against practitioners of other arts?"

That's what you asked for, that's what I posted. The sessions on that day were conducted under Vale Tudo rules. IMO the first punch on that clip showed Systema, the rest falls under general "sparring under Vale Tudo rules". Hence the "squaring up " and the rest. In a real situation (in which the guy in the clip as a serving LEO has plenty of experience) it wouldn't have gone further than the first hit.

I'm sure your enquiries are genuine and you are not just trolling. I can't imagine anyone wasting the amount of effort you obviously put into your posts merely to try and score "points" on an internet forum.

Let us know where you are and perhaps we can hook you up with someone who you can "spar" with.

 

[Paul Genge]

The Systema guy in the clip that has been posted by Bob P is myself. Prior to training in Systema I spent 12 years studying Bujinkan Taijutsu and a number of years playing with other styles. The way I work is also flavoured by 9 years as a front line cop where your opponent often runs if you do not have a good hold of him.

As far as the clip goes it was a wonderful opportunity for myself to learn from the throwdown experience.

Where things really moved from the way we train is in what is going through my mind during the event. Initially I treated the event as a fight. There had been lots of big talk on the Bullshido site about throwdowns and as far as I was concerned the other guy was going to try to hurt me.

On the video the other guy is seen to throw a kick to the groin. Until I watched that clip I was convinced he had thrown a punch. I certainly did not conciously see the kick coming and moved in a manner that made me feel safe (a principle from Systema). The result was the left to the jaw and a follow up kick which was stopped once my sparring partner let a whelp and backed off upset at how hard he had been hit.

The reason for stopping the follow up was simply that I did not want to destroy someone just to make a point. He was obviously not as much of a threat as I first thought and it would have been wrong of me to continue.

The opponent came forward again with his hand as a guard. This time I stepped left and hit with a right to the left side of his face. He bent over and at this point I broke the cardinal rule and tried to do something specific. At this point my mind set changed. This would have been a guilatine into a sutemi (sacrifice throw) that takes the attacker to the floor in a strangle. This comes from no particular style it is simply something I discovered one day in sparring and have found to work reliably in my proffessional experiences. At this point my mind set changed. I became wrapped up in the situation, just as you can do in a real fight (This is the first time I have been able to watch this happen from a spectators perspective and it has been very usefull).

At the point I go for this you can clearly see the tension across my back as I tense up. The opponent stands before the guilatine goes on and I then used a simple throw from my school yard judo days to bring the opponent to the floor.

The problem with comparing this to real fighting is that in real fighting you are simply trying to survive. In this and any other sporting event you are trying to win. As a result of this I lost the plot (in a systema way) and simply punched the guys nose a few times then had a little grapple with him. He flipped me off the mat and before I got a chance to counter we got stopped.

His nose was bleeding and he decided that he had enough. We shook hands, I stopped the nose bleed using a presure point and we parted on good terms.

Everyones Systema has it's own look. Despite this there is good systema and bad systema. If you look at the way that Vladimir and Michael move they are very different. Vladimir's systema is flavoured by his training and experiences that he had prior to meeting Michael.

Instead of trying to place a whole art in a pidgeon hole it is best you seek first hand experience. What I can tell you that wether an opponent resists or not is immaterial when you donto try to do a specific technique. So long as you simply move naturally and take the opportunities presented to you resistance is not an issue.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)

 

[SilatFan]

In regards to the clip of a systema practitioner sparring a vale tudo guy:

To me, the thing that appears most systema is the way he moves around the guy at the beginning so that when the guy attacks, he is in prime position to land that nice crack to the jaw. The systema breaks down from there when he decided to square off the guy, landing him in a shoot, then grappling on the ground...all while squared off with the guy, something Systema avoids.

Thanks MattW!

 

[SilatFan]

"Do you know if there is somewhere that you can point me to where there is video of Systema practitioners “sparring” in real time against practitioners of other arts?"

That's what you asked for, that's what I posted. ........

I'm sure your enquiries are genuine and you are not just trolling. I can't imagine anyone wasting the amount of effort you obviously put into your posts merely to try and score "points" on an internet forum.

Let us know where you are and perhaps we can hook you up with someone who you can "spar" with.

Yeah, I asked if anyone had clips that they felt showed Systema in action vs Non-Systema guys. You offered that clip. I asked followup questions - because I didn't understand - and you had nothing more to say but go find someone in person. I thanked you and said I'd do that but then others had some more comments which I replied to. Thanks for confirming you don't believe I'm trolling because I asked specific questions on something we all could view (the video). I know how questions can rattle some people. I'll try not to take your offer to "spar" as anything but a kind offer to help me understand.

 

[SilatFan]

The Systema guy in the clip that has been posted by Bob P is myself. Prior to training in Systema I spent 12 years studying Bujinkan Taijutsu and a number of years playing with other styles. The way I work is also flavoured by 9 years as a front line cop where your opponent often runs if you do not have a good hold of him.

As far as the clip goes it was a wonderful opportunity for myself to learn from the throwdown experience.

Where things really moved from the way we train is in what is going through my mind during the event. Initially I treated the event as a fight. There had been lots of big talk on the Bullshido site about throwdowns and as far as I was concerned the other guy was going to try to hurt me.

On the video the other guy is seen to throw a kick to the groin. Until I watched that clip I was convinced he had thrown a punch. I certainly did not conciously see the kick coming and moved in a manner that made me feel safe (a principle from Systema). The result was the left to the jaw and a follow up kick which was stopped once my sparring partner let a whelp and backed off upset at how hard he had been hit.

The reason for stopping the follow up was simply that I did not want to destroy someone just to make a point. He was obviously not as much of a threat as I first thought and it would have been wrong of me to continue.

The opponent came forward again with his hand as a guard. This time I stepped left and hit with a right to the left side of his face. He bent over and at this point I broke the cardinal rule and tried to do something specific. At this point my mind set changed. This would have been a guilatine into a sutemi (sacrifice throw) that takes the attacker to the floor in a strangle. This comes from no particular style it is simply something I discovered one day in sparring and have found to work reliably in my proffessional experiences. At this point my mind set changed. I became wrapped up in the situation, just as you can do in a real fight (This is the first time I have been able to watch this happen from a spectators perspective and it has been very usefull).

At the point I go for this you can clearly see the tension across my back as I tense up. The opponent stands before the guilatine goes on and I then used a simple throw from my school yard judo days to bring the opponent to the floor.

The problem with comparing this to real fighting is that in real fighting you are simply trying to survive. In this and any other sporting event you are trying to win. As a result of this I lost the plot (in a systema way) and simply punched the guys nose a few times then had a little grapple with him. He flipped me off the mat and before I got a chance to counter we got stopped.

His nose was bleeding and he decided that he had enough. We shook hands, I stopped the nose bleed using a presure point and we parted on good terms.

Everyones Systema has it's own look. Despite this there is good systema and bad systema. If you look at the way that Vladimir and Michael move they are very different. Vladimir's systema is flavoured by his training and experiences that he had prior to meeting Michael.

Instead of trying to place a whole art in a pidgeon hole it is best you seek first hand experience. What I can tell you that wether an opponent resists or not is immaterial when you donto try to do a specific technique. So long as you simply move naturally and take the opportunities presented to you resistance is not an issue.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)

Thank you Paul! As a fellow officer I do understand the hurdles you face because I have faced them myself. I believe in my post following BobP's video I asked for a breakdown like the one you just offered. I do appretiate it. But I'm not trying to "pigeon hole" Systema. I'm asking for your (or any Systema practitioners) opinion on it and what was/wasn't it in the video BobP provided as a example of Systema in action.

 

[leomel pino]

if you want to experience systema then just do as what those guys from bullshido did to a systema instructor at Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) and be sure to have all your techniques and MA experience thrown at him and so that you can find the right answer.

 

[Furtry]

SilatFan, in class today we shot some video of full on 'sparing' type of work, fully resistant and aggressive work. Vlad was mentioning he might put it up on his site, I hope it turns out.

 

[Furtry]

SilatFan, in class today we shot some video of full on 'sparing' type of work, fully resistant and aggressive work. Vlad was mentioning he might put it up on his site, I hope it turns out.

Okay, the clips are up. The first one shows the progression of how we train strikes. The second is some free flow wrestling/grappling, basically with in a limit of a defence against a wrestling style of attack, then back up and go again, alternating who is the aggressor.
I'm in both clips, the short guy wearing the green t-shirt, and commo pants .
The guys in the clips with whom I wrestled are some what new to Systema (less than a year each), but are not new to martial arts. Coincidently both have a serious weight and size advantage on me.
Systema is demonstrated in the first clip by the relaxed continuous strikes from any angle with out the traditional 'chambered' position of the hands, hitting any target available. In the second clip the continuous flow from one move to the next with out powering through, but rather going with and around resistance. (With the exception of me doing the arm bar, but I couldn’t help my self... ). Again all strikes and counter tactics came out of naturally occurring responses with out any prearranged technique or response.
Hope that clarifies some things and as you can see Systema is different than the folk styles in the original clips.

 

[rutherford]

Nice clips. Looks like a lot of fun.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=clips

 

[Paul Genge]

In the second clip the continuous flow from one move to the next with out powering through, but rather going with and around resistance. (With the exception of me doing the arm bar, but I couldn’t help my self... ). Again all strikes and counter tactics came out of naturally occurring responses with out any prearranged technique or response.
Hope that clarifies some things and as you can see Systema is different than the folk styles in the original clips.

There lies one of beautiful truths in Systema. If it is there and it works for you it does not matter where you picked up the principle from. After all would you find professionals feeling bad about doing something they were not taught if it helped them to survive a situation.

The training drills of systema are unique in my experience because they allow the quality principles learnt in other martial arts to come out naturally and instinctively. The only problem is you have to just let them happen and not try to force the issue.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)

 

[SilatFan]

Systema is demonstrated in the first clip by the relaxed continuous strikes from any angle with out the traditional 'chambered' position of the hands, hitting any target available. In the second clip the continuous flow from one move to the next with out powering through, but rather going with and around resistance. (With the exception of me doing the arm bar, but I couldn’t help my self... ). Again all strikes and counter tactics came out of naturally occurring responses with out any prearranged technique or response.
Hope that clarifies some things and as you can see Systema is different than the folk styles in the original clips.

Sorry about my delayed response. I’ve been away and haven’t had the time to check the forum. Furtry, I like the clips. More so, I like that you were able to articulate some of the principals of your art to me when describing the clips. I hope you don’t feel like you had to “pidgeon hole” (Sorry Paul ) your art to describe/point out it’s concepts as they were played out on video. Thanks for your effort and help.

 

[SilatFan]

if you want to experience systema then just do as what those guys from bullshido did to a systema instructor at Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK) and be sure to have all your techniques and MA experience thrown at him and so that you can find the right answer.

Leomel Pino, thanks for contributing so much to the conversation! From your input I’ve concluded that you are obviously an intellectual giant and I’m quite sure a very capable practitioner. It’s surely my loss that I live in another country and therefore have no chance of learning from your capable hands. I’m sure a Bullshido type challenge is just what you did to learn Systema, right? - I know, I know I was asking questions about Systema, in a Systema forum, about a clip that a Systema instructor was good enough to provide when asked for one and I posed those questions to Systema practitioners – what was I thinking? If I really cared to learn something about your art I should have just slammed it on Bullshido, Right? Being a timid and simpler person I’ll just keep training and watching VV’s Seminar and announcement pages. When an opportunity arises I’ll follow up on it and learn some useful stuff I’m sure. In the mean time keep parceling out your great insights they are priceless.

 

[Simon Curran]

Please do not take offence any of you who are practitioners of Systema this is merely a personal observation, and not a criticism, but to an outsider, from the videos which were posted, it looks very much like free flow brawling to me.

Don't get me wrong I'm not criticising, and I would be very interested in learning if anyone knows of any schools in Denmark it's just my untrained eye could not (like the original poster) see a difference

 

[Furtry]

Silat Fan, :lol: you crack me up (reference to leomel pino). We have a lot of cops training at Club Vlad, all of whom have a very similar approach to life, I'm glad I was able to clarify things and stay safe.

 

[Furtry]

Please do not take offence any of you who are practitioners of Systema this is merely a personal observation, and not a criticism, but to an outsider, from the videos which were posted, it looks very much like free flow brawling to me.

Don't get me wrong I'm not criticising, and I would be very interested in learning if anyone knows of any schools in Denmark it's just my untrained eye could not (like the original poster) see a difference

Simmon, sometimes it is just that; a brawl. But a brawl that allows a person to survive with out being injured, or to keep going if injured. I've pointed out the obvious Systema aspects, so reread the thread if you’re interested.
I also believe that there is an affiliate in Denmark, if not; set up a seminar and invite Vlad .

 

[SilatFan]

Silat Fan, :lol: you crack me up (reference to leomel pino). We have a lot of cops training at Club Vlad, all of whom have a very similar approach to life, I'm glad I was able to clarify things and stay safe.

Thanks again Furtry and everyone else for your help!

 

[Simon Curran]

Simmon, sometimes it is just that; a brawl. But a brawl that allows a person to survive with out being injured, or to keep going if injured. I've pointed out the obvious Systema aspects, so reread the thread if you’re interested.
I also believe that there is an affiliate in Denmark, if not; set up a seminar and invite Vlad .

Thanks for your response, I will look into the affiliate over here, cos I don't think I can afford to set up a seminar:asian: