Ranking Martial Arts for Self Defensw

[Steve]

Ok I guess I have to watch the video, now… this… Steve… is all your fault. I plan to hold you responsible for whatever faces or eye rolls I make. If your ears burn around 8 tonite you will know why.

I expect your eyes to roll often. It’s part of the fun.

 

[O'Malley]

Do you really think they were talking about superhuman ability, or is it possible they were making another point? When I heard that, in the context of the rest of that exchange, I took it to mean that the founder of Aikido, and his most skilled students, all came into Aikido as very accomplished, skilled martial artists from a wide range of styles. Superhuman was a hyperbolic reference to their relative skills outside of aikido. That maps to some of the things that many aikidoka on this forum have said over the years, along the lines of Aikido being a great supplemental style that needs a solid foundation of skill prior to training in order to be practical.

Except it's also false. Morihei Ueshiba's martial arts background is well documented, and he had not done any extensive study, much less become "very accomplished", in any martial art before starting studying daito ryu. He became a daito ryu instructor and kept teaching it until his death, after rebranding it as aikido (a name he didn't care about and didn't even come up with). So he obtained his skills from the same art that he continued to teach - and besides other top instructors in that art are reported to have had similar skills.
As for his students, while some were indeed very accomplished, most of them, including some top guys, were just kids at the time.
Therefore neither Ueshiba's skills nor his students' can be attributed to previous training.
And what they did say was that he was such a "monster" that was "inhumanely good" that it can't be replicated. That's pretty close to the definition of a superhuman.
So, they've demonstrated a lack of understanding of the art's history, context and technical aspects. And we're talking about the art that Rokas's supposed to know best. Which makes me question the whole endeavour.

 

[Steve]

How do YOU rank them? Outside of WC, Gung Fu isn’t even on the list. Not sure if I am even invited to this party.

I’m happy to rank them. And feel free to add them. I think the gist in the opinion for kung fu is that there are some serious practitioners who pressure test and supplement the training but most who train are not well prepared.

 

[Steve]

Except it's also false. Morihei Ueshiba's martial arts background is well documented, and he had not done any extensive study, much less become "very accomplished", in any martial art before starting studying daito ryu. He became a daito ryu instructor and kept teaching it until his death, after rebranding it as aikido (a name he didn't care about and didn't even come up with). So he obtained his skills from the same art that he continued to teach - and besides other top instructors in that art are reported to have had similar skills.
As for his students, while some were indeed very accomplished, most of them, including some top guys, were just kids at the time.
Therefore neither Ueshiba's skills nor his students' can be attributed to previous training.
And what they did say was that he was such a "monster" that was "inhumanely good" that it can't be replicated. That's pretty close to the definition of a superhuman.
So, they've demonstrated a lack of understanding of the art's history, context and technical aspects. And we're talking about the art that Rokas's supposed to know best. Which makes me question the whole endeavour.

Huh. That’s interesting. So all of the accounts of his extensive martial arts background are false? Crazy. Do you have some evidence of this? I’m very curious because this is contrary to what I’ve heard from every other aikidoka here and elsewhere.

Also, for what it’s worth, the other guy was saying this. Not Rokas, but even so, if you’re right, I don’t think it’s common knowledge even among aikido practitioners.

Ultimately, though, I think you’re getting caught up in a tangent. The question is os, do you think aikido is better than they ranked it for self defense?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If someone is dinging the video because the poster is ranking systems they have no experience with, then by their own logic (logic I tend to agree with, mostly) they cannot really rank the styles themselves.

I personally have no dog in this fight. Steve said earlier, just for fun. I watched 20 minutes of it. It seems a little tongue in cheek, which means I am ok with it. Hell, gung fu isn’t even on the list, so I don’t rank at all, except if you count my tier 9 Tai Chi training. I will give a full ranking of how well this video defends itself later.

 

[drop bear]

Your video isn't viewable in the USA, by the way.

Bugger.

 

[O'Malley]

Huh. That’s interesting. So all of the accounts of his extensive martial arts background are false? Crazy. Do you have some evidence of this? I’m very curious because this is contrary to what I’ve heard from every other aikidoka here and elsewhere.

Also, for what it’s worth, the other guy was saying this. Not Rokas, but even so, if you’re right, I don’t think it’s common knowledge even among aikido practitioners.

For example: Ueshiba’s Martial Arts Career Before Aikido Was Born

I agree that it's not common knowledge. It was part of the narrative pushed by the mainline aikido organisation to make aikido look original and obfuscate the links to daito ryu. Then the narrative changed to "yeah he studied daito ryu but then he modified that brutal martial art into an art of peace because he hated war", which ignores the very close ties and active involvement of M. Ueshiba in extreme fascist groups in Japan at the time.
Now the "Ueshiba was a master/martial arts genius before founding aikido" narrative has been resurrected to justify the shortcomings of modern exponents. "He was special, I'm not, so it's ok if I can't even come close to his skills".
My opinion is that while he was certainly talented, no man is unattainable. He was able to train in a particular method, of which his contemporaries saw the value, but which he was not able or did not care to pass on. I think it's the job of the aikido community to preserve what has survived of the method and to reconstruct what has been lost, which was the most interesting part of the art, for me at least.

 

[Steve]

If someone is dinging the video because the poster is ranking systems they have no experience with, then by their own logic (logic I tend to agree with, mostly) they cannot really rank the styles themselves.

They can rank the styles they’re familiar with, though. How would you rank them?

My working theory is that folks have opinions and could easily rank them, if they wanted to. And maybe some new information will come out.

For example, I have learned that ueshiba might not have the extensive martial arts background I thought he had prior to Founding aikido.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They can rank the styles they’re familiar with, though. How would you rank them?

My working theory is that folks have opinions and could easily rank them, if they wanted to. And maybe some new information will come out.

For example, I have learned that ueshiba might not have the extensive martial arts background I thought he had prior to Founding aikido.

Well I will hazard a guess about this video…wait for it…

 

[Buka]

Since you seem to have known most everyone in the MA world, no doubt you have worked with Sinanju's Master Chin. What did you find most valuable from "Little Father's" teachings?

(Can't wait to hear your response)

Unfortunately, I was never around Master Chin. But I'm pretty sure Remo and I were in Mrs Kopeski's eight grade class together. We kept getting suspended for letting the adventure begin.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

the tl;dr version is that they created a relative ranking system. They did give arts a letter grading, with S at the top, then A through F, though I think in the end it was calibrated mostly to be a ranking of arts relative to each other.

The simple criteria was how well prepared folks were after a 'year or two' of training in the styles as they are commonly trained.

The video is so long, because they actually chat about each style at length, so whether or not you agree with them, you'll at least understand their rationale for where they placed the style and why.

So, the question is, how would you rank the following styles? If you don't know or aren't comfortable ranking a style, just ignore it. If you're not interested in participating, it's okay. Don't sweat it. Just a little fun. I'll list all the styles out below, in the order they ended them with in the video.

Tier 1: Wrestling and catch wrestling
Tier 2: GJJ and MMA
Tier 3: BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, and Lethwei
Tier 4: Kickboxing
Tier 5: Western Boxing
Tier 6: Capoeira, JJJ, Karate, JKD, Kenpo, Krav Maga
Tier 7: Kali/Escrima
Tier 8: Aikido, TKD, WC
Tier 9: Ninjutsu, Pencak Silat, Systema, and Tai Chi

So here’s my ranking list. Keep in mind as I said I have not seen the original video. I also copied all the arts down onto a google doc without looking to see where they all landed, so that I’m making a list rather than altering roka’s.

Also keep in mind that I have not tried all these arts, some of this is likely inaccurate info since I’m going based on my own assumptions and information about the styles, even the ones I’ve trained in. NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THIS LIST AS FACTUAL. I AM BORED AND THIS SEEMED FUN, IT IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE.

Thirdly, within a tier all styles are equal-or at least I didn’t put thought into ranking them against each other. At the spots where they’re separated by paragraph, that’s not saying the top art is better, it’s just how I happened to separate to explain my thoughts.

Finally, I’m going with the criteria steve gave in his earlier post, with the addition of the “average” school of that style. There are definitely schools from my Tier 2 style that leave students less prepared than schools in the Tier 9 styles (think about stuff like the no-touch BJJ that’s rare but exists, and Tomiki Aikido).

Tier 1:

None. I’m assuming this is ‘SSS’ rank, and I don’t think any art is good enough that the average student develops their students to this level.

Mainly because most arts leave out a crucial skill (ie: what’s a boxer going to do if he gets tackled before he realizes a fight is starting), and de-escalation.

Tier 2:

Customer Service jobs, Therapy & Social work jobs, and MMA.

I put those two in as tongue-in-cheek, since they hit something (with consistent practice), that, as mentioned above, martial arts tend not to. MMA is here because they typically train with feedback, and learn enough skills that whatever combat situation arises they should be okay, with the exception of an armed opponent.

Tier 3:

Is GJJ goshin jiujitsu, or something else? I’m not aware it’s popular, but I’d place it here if it is, since that’s kind of MMA-lite. If it’s something else, no ranking since I don’t know it.

Wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ. I’m putting these all here because they teach with resistance, but have holes on their own. If someone learns kickboxing or muay thai and ends up on the ground, they’re in a troublesome situation. If someone learns judo, wrestling or BJJ and are in a situation where they can’t grapple (or the person they’re fighting nows how to keep distance), they’re also in a troublesome situation. This is easily resolved by cross-training, or training somewhere that teaches you how to deal with their weakspots, but from my understanding/experiences, the average place does not do that.

Kenpo. Similar to GJJ (if I got it right), it’s MMA-lite. It doesn’t have any specific weak spots, and has the benefit of teaching specific techniques to hopefully improve reaction upon being attacked. However, not all schools encourage competition or realistic resistance training, and there are so many branches the quality is not consistent. I’d say the median ability of kenpo students after 2 years training would probably be very different than the mean (and not sure which way it skews).

Cross-country/track. Not a martial art, but probably has saved a lot of lives simply by having better cardio and being able to run away from the guy trying to hurt you. Doesn’t work if your trapped, or trying to save your friends/family/strangers if you’re really nice.

Tier 4:

Lethwei. From what I understand, and this may be inaccurate, this is similar to Muay Thai except it has older training methods, focuses on skills that were more important in the past, and teaches archaic weapons. While I’d personally like that over MT, that causes the issue that it likely was more effective for SD in the past vs. now.

Boxing. Similar to the other limited combat sports in Tier 3, except more limited-if you can’t use your hands for whatever reason, or the person has a weapon that’s keeping you out of reach, then a lot of what you know is now useless.

Kali/Escrima. One of, if not my top, favorite arts, it can teach you everything you need to know. Where I learned, they teach hand striking, grappling (with and without weapon), weapon use against weapon, weapon use against empty-hand, and empty-hand against weapon. They go over weapon retention as well, and often involve a lot of sparring/resistance in all of those, and you can find competitions to test your skills. The reason it’s not ranked higher is because from my understanding a lot of schools only teach (particularly with resistance) weapon vs. weapon. That’s great if you end up in that situation. But chances are you will not, so the average practitioner would probably be seriously lacking on the empty-hand and grappling aspects (even though grappling can improve your weapon ability a ton).

Tier 5:

Capoeira, Krav Maga, Sumo (I added sumo). These all teach things that you can use to win a fight very quickly very suddenly. Capoeira, the opponents not expecting you to suddenly do a triple flip and axe kick his temple. KM and Sumo, teach a level of aggression and how to use that aggression to overwhelm at the start. That said, if you don’t end it quickly, your in trouble since the weaknesses of each art comes out.

Tier 6:

JJJ, Karate, TKD, JKD. Probably going to get some flak for this, but all of these suffer from the same issue. They all could be at the same level as the tier 3 arts, but the average level of ability I’d guess is much lower. Not because of the arts, but because of how often they are targeted to children, and taught as ‘easy’ arts, where you don’t have to be as serious, and in two of them you don’t have much resistance training/sparring/competition on average, while the other two add too many safety precautions and suffer from point sparring lowering what people expect after a year or two what will happen in an actual fight (at that point in training, if you do point sparring people seem to expect their opponent will go down with that first blow and not follow up, since that’s how they train and they haven’t seen anything to dispute it. Eventually they should get over that misconception, but not yet).

Tier 7:

Pencak Silat. They fight with scarves-how’s that useful?

WC. Made for women. The average martial artist is male. Therefore, this style is not made for the average martial artist.

Ninjutsu. In self defense you’re not typically sneaking up and assassinating your opponent. So half of what they learn is useless.

Catch Wrestling. My friends and I used to do this, I think. We called it combat ball-sports. We’d play catch/baseball, football, or basketball, with no fouls, and hurt each other trying to win. A ton of fun, but unless there’s a ball and glove, I fail to see how yanking someone’s arm will help me in a SD situation.

Those are all jokes, obviously. I don’t know enough about any of those to place them. I thought about placing WC around tier 6, and Pencak around tier 4, but the lack of knowledge I have about them would be dishonest. Plus I need this to fill out all 9 tiers. As for why Tier 7-this was when I realized I didn’t have enough tiers if I left them out.

Tier 8:

Systema. From what I can tell the average systema school is just..not good. It’s similar to krav without the advantage of aggression, has consistency issues, and pressure-testing issues. That said, they do deal with more than just compliant partners refusing to punch you, and have the intention of SD, so I couldn’t place it in Tier 9.

Tier 9:

Aikido. I’ve talked to a lot of aikidoka, and I’d say about 80% of them have informed me that they don’t do competition, or real resistance drills even, and also that punches are not used in Aikido. There are exceptions of course, but the average student would come out after 1-2 years knowing how to throw a compliant person, not knowing what to do if they resist in an unexpected way, and not knowing what to do if they punch at you.

I added a few, but don’t think I took out any of the arts you listed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

the tl;dr version is that they created a relative ranking system. They did give arts a letter grading, with S at the top, then A through F, though I think in the end it was calibrated mostly to be a ranking of arts relative to each other.

The simple criteria was how well prepared folks were after a 'year or two' of training in the styles as they are commonly trained.

The video is so long, because they actually chat about each style at length, so whether or not you agree with them, you'll at least understand their rationale for where they placed the style and why.

So, the question is, how would you rank the following styles? If you don't know or aren't comfortable ranking a style, just ignore it. If you're not interested in participating, it's okay. Don't sweat it. Just a little fun. I'll list all the styles out below, in the order they ended them with in the video.

Tier 1: Wrestling and catch wrestling
Tier 2: GJJ and MMA
Tier 3: BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai, and Lethwei
Tier 4: Kickboxing
Tier 5: Western Boxing
Tier 6: Capoeira, JJJ, Karate, JKD, Kenpo, Krav Maga
Tier 7: Kali/Escrima
Tier 8: Aikido, TKD, WC
Tier 9: Ninjutsu, Pencak Silat, Systema, and Tai Chi

So here’s my ranking list. Keep in mind as I said I have not seen the original video. I also copied all the arts down onto a google doc without looking to see where they all landed, so that I’m making a list rather than altering roka’s.

Also keep in mind that I have not tried all these arts, some of this is likely inaccurate info since I’m going based on my own assumptions and information about the styles, even the ones I’ve trained in. NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THIS LIST AS FACTUAL. I AM BORED AND THIS SEEMED FUN, IT IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE.

Thirdly, within a tier all styles are equal-or at least I didn’t put thought into ranking them against each other. At the spots where they’re separated by paragraph, that’s not saying the top art is better, it’s just how I happened to separate to explain my thoughts.

Finally, I’m going with the criteria steve gave in his earlier post, with the addition of the “average” school of that style. There are definitely schools from my Tier 2 style that leave students less prepared than schools in the Tier 9 styles (think about stuff like the no-touch BJJ that’s rare but exists, and Tomiki Aikido).

Tier 1:

None. I’m assuming this is ‘SSS’ rank, and I don’t think any art is good enough that the average student develops their students to this level.

Mainly because most arts leave out a crucial skill (ie: what’s a boxer going to do if he gets tackled before he realizes a fight is starting), and de-escalation.

Tier 2:

Customer Service jobs, Therapy & Social work jobs, and MMA.

I put those two in as tongue-in-cheek, since they hit something (with consistent practice), that, as mentioned above, martial arts tend not to. MMA is here because they typically train with feedback, and learn enough skills that whatever combat situation arises they should be okay, with the exception of an armed opponent.

Tier 3:

Is GJJ goshin jiujitsu, or something else? I’m not aware it’s popular, but I’d place it here if it is, since that’s kind of MMA-lite. If it’s something else, no ranking since I don’t know it.

Wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ. I’m putting these all here because they teach with resistance, but have holes on their own. If someone learns kickboxing or muay thai and ends up on the ground, they’re in a troublesome situation. If someone learns judo, wrestling or BJJ and are in a situation where they can’t grapple (or the person they’re fighting nows how to keep distance), they’re also in a troublesome situation. This is easily resolved by cross-training, or training somewhere that teaches you how to deal with their weakspots, but from my understanding/experiences, the average place does not do that.

Kenpo. Similar to GJJ (if I got it right), it’s MMA-lite. It doesn’t have any specific weak spots, and has the benefit of teaching specific techniques to hopefully improve reaction upon being attacked. However, not all schools encourage competition or realistic resistance training, and there are so many branches the quality is not consistent. I’d say the median ability of kenpo students after 2 years training would probably be very different than the mean (and not sure which way it skews).

Cross-country/track. Not a martial art, but probably has saved a lot of lives simply by having better cardio and being able to run away from the guy trying to hurt you. Doesn’t work if your trapped, or trying to save your friends/family/strangers if you’re really nice.

Tier 4:

Lethwei. From what I understand, and this may be inaccurate, this is similar to Muay Thai except it has older training methods, focuses on skills that were more important in the past, and teaches archaic weapons. While I’d personally like that over MT, that causes the issue that it likely was more effective for SD in the past vs. now.

Boxing. Similar to the other limited combat sports in Tier 3, except more limited-if you can’t use your hands for whatever reason, or the person has a weapon that’s keeping you out of reach, then a lot of what you know is now useless.

Kali/Escrima. One of, if not my top, favorite arts, it can teach you everything you need to know. Where I learned, they teach hand striking, grappling (with and without weapon), weapon use against weapon, weapon use against empty-hand, and empty-hand against weapon. They go over weapon retention as well, and often involve a lot of sparring/resistance in all of those, and you can find competitions to test your skills. The reason it’s not ranked higher is because from my understanding a lot of schools only teach (particularly with resistance) weapon vs. weapon. That’s great if you end up in that situation. But chances are you will not, so the average practitioner would probably be seriously lacking on the empty-hand and grappling aspects (even though grappling can improve your weapon ability a ton).

Tier 5:

Capoeira, Krav Maga, Sumo (I added sumo). These all teach things that you can use to win a fight very quickly very suddenly. Capoeira, the opponents not expecting you to suddenly do a triple flip and axe kick his temple. KM and Sumo, teach a level of aggression and how to use that aggression to overwhelm at the start. That said, if you don’t end it quickly, your in trouble since the weaknesses of each art comes out.

Tier 6:

JJJ, Karate, TKD, JKD. Probably going to get some flak for this, but all of these suffer from the same issue. They all could be at the same level as the tier 3 arts, but the average level of ability I’d guess is much lower. Not because of the arts, but because of how often they are targeted to children, and taught as ‘easy’ arts, where you don’t have to be as serious, and in two of them you don’t have much resistance training/sparring/competition on average, while the other two add too many safety precautions and suffer from point sparring lowering what people expect after a year or two what will happen in an actual fight (at that point in training, if you do point sparring people seem to expect their opponent will go down with that first blow and not follow up, since that’s how they train and they haven’t seen anything to dispute it. Eventually they should get over that misconception, but not yet).

Tier 7:

Pencak Silat. They fight with scarves-how’s that useful?

WC. Made for women. The average martial artist is male. Therefore, this style is not made for the average martial artist.

Ninjutsu. In self defense you’re not typically sneaking up and assassinating your opponent. So half of what they learn is useless.

Catch Wrestling. My friends and I used to do this, I think. We called it combat ball-sports. We’d play catch/baseball, football, or basketball, with no fouls, and hurt each other trying to win. A ton of fun, but unless there’s a ball and glove, I fail to see how yanking someone’s arm will help me in a SD situation.

Those are all jokes, obviously. I don’t know enough about any of those to place them. I thought about placing WC around tier 6, and Pencak around tier 4, but the lack of knowledge I have about them would be dishonest. Plus I need this to fill out all 9 tiers. As for why Tier 7-this was when I realized I didn’t have enough tiers if I left them out.

Tier 8:

Systema. From what I can tell the average systema school is just..not good. It’s similar to krav without the advantage of aggression, has consistency issues, and pressure-testing issues. That said, they do deal with more than just compliant partners refusing to punch you, and have the intention of SD, so I couldn’t place it in Tier 9.

Tier 9:

Aikido. I’ve talked to a lot of aikidoka, and I’d say about 80% of them have informed me that they don’t do competition, or real resistance drills even, and also that punches are not used in Aikido. There are exceptions of course, but the average student would come out after 1-2 years knowing how to throw a compliant person, not knowing what to do if they resist in an unexpected way, and not knowing what to do if they punch at you.

I added a few, but don’t think I took out any of the arts you listed.

So just compared my list to his. I'm suprised he put wrestling up on it's own, and don't know what differentiates it from catch-wrestling. Most of the rest is similar or I can understand, though I don't know his logic. With the exception of my tier 7 arts which I can't really say what makes sense, even with broad assumptions. And kali deserves to be higher.

 

[Steve]

So here’s my ranking list. Keep in mind as I said I have not seen the original video. I also copied all the arts down onto a google doc without looking to see where they all landed, so that I’m making a list rather than altering roka’s.

Also keep in mind that I have not tried all these arts, some of this is likely inaccurate info since I’m going based on my own assumptions and information about the styles, even the ones I’ve trained in. NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THIS LIST AS FACTUAL. I AM BORED AND THIS SEEMED FUN, IT IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE.

Thirdly, within a tier all styles are equal-or at least I didn’t put thought into ranking them against each other. At the spots where they’re separated by paragraph, that’s not saying the top art is better, it’s just how I happened to separate to explain my thoughts.

Finally, I’m going with the criteria steve gave in his earlier post, with the addition of the “average” school of that style. There are definitely schools from my Tier 2 style that leave students less prepared than schools in the Tier 9 styles (think about stuff like the no-touch BJJ that’s rare but exists, and Tomiki Aikido).

Tier 1:

None. I’m assuming this is ‘SSS’ rank, and I don’t think any art is good enough that the average student develops their students to this level.

Mainly because most arts leave out a crucial skill (ie: what’s a boxer going to do if he gets tackled before he realizes a fight is starting), and de-escalation.

Tier 2:

Customer Service jobs, Therapy & Social work jobs, and MMA.

I put those two in as tongue-in-cheek, since they hit something (with consistent practice), that, as mentioned above, martial arts tend not to. MMA is here because they typically train with feedback, and learn enough skills that whatever combat situation arises they should be okay, with the exception of an armed opponent.

Tier 3:

Is GJJ goshin jiujitsu, or something else? I’m not aware it’s popular, but I’d place it here if it is, since that’s kind of MMA-lite. If it’s something else, no ranking since I don’t know it.

Wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ. I’m putting these all here because they teach with resistance, but have holes on their own. If someone learns kickboxing or muay thai and ends up on the ground, they’re in a troublesome situation. If someone learns judo, wrestling or BJJ and are in a situation where they can’t grapple (or the person they’re fighting nows how to keep distance), they’re also in a troublesome situation. This is easily resolved by cross-training, or training somewhere that teaches you how to deal with their weakspots, but from my understanding/experiences, the average place does not do that.

Kenpo. Similar to GJJ (if I got it right), it’s MMA-lite. It doesn’t have any specific weak spots, and has the benefit of teaching specific techniques to hopefully improve reaction upon being attacked. However, not all schools encourage competition or realistic resistance training, and there are so many branches the quality is not consistent. I’d say the median ability of kenpo students after 2 years training would probably be very different than the mean (and not sure which way it skews).

Cross-country/track. Not a martial art, but probably has saved a lot of lives simply by having better cardio and being able to run away from the guy trying to hurt you. Doesn’t work if your trapped, or trying to save your friends/family/strangers if you’re really nice.

Tier 4:

Lethwei. From what I understand, and this may be inaccurate, this is similar to Muay Thai except it has older training methods, focuses on skills that were more important in the past, and teaches archaic weapons. While I’d personally like that over MT, that causes the issue that it likely was more effective for SD in the past vs. now.

Boxing. Similar to the other limited combat sports in Tier 3, except more limited-if you can’t use your hands for whatever reason, or the person has a weapon that’s keeping you out of reach, then a lot of what you know is now useless.

Kali/Escrima. One of, if not my top, favorite arts, it can teach you everything you need to know. Where I learned, they teach hand striking, grappling (with and without weapon), weapon use against weapon, weapon use against empty-hand, and empty-hand against weapon. They go over weapon retention as well, and often involve a lot of sparring/resistance in all of those, and you can find competitions to test your skills. The reason it’s not ranked higher is because from my understanding a lot of schools only teach (particularly with resistance) weapon vs. weapon. That’s great if you end up in that situation. But chances are you will not, so the average practitioner would probably be seriously lacking on the empty-hand and grappling aspects (even though grappling can improve your weapon ability a ton).

Tier 5:

Capoeira, Krav Maga, Sumo (I added sumo). These all teach things that you can use to win a fight very quickly very suddenly. Capoeira, the opponents not expecting you to suddenly do a triple flip and axe kick his temple. KM and Sumo, teach a level of aggression and how to use that aggression to overwhelm at the start. That said, if you don’t end it quickly, your in trouble since the weaknesses of each art comes out.

Tier 6:

JJJ, Karate, TKD, JKD. Probably going to get some flak for this, but all of these suffer from the same issue. They all could be at the same level as the tier 3 arts, but the average level of ability I’d guess is much lower. Not because of the arts, but because of how often they are targeted to children, and taught as ‘easy’ arts, where you don’t have to be as serious, and in two of them you don’t have much resistance training/sparring/competition on average, while the other two add too many safety precautions and suffer from point sparring lowering what people expect after a year or two what will happen in an actual fight (at that point in training, if you do point sparring people seem to expect their opponent will go down with that first blow and not follow up, since that’s how they train and they haven’t seen anything to dispute it. Eventually they should get over that misconception, but not yet).

Tier 7:

Pencak Silat. They fight with scarves-how’s that useful?

WC. Made for women. The average martial artist is male. Therefore, this style is not made for the average martial artist.

Ninjutsu. In self defense you’re not typically sneaking up and assassinating your opponent. So half of what they learn is useless.

Catch Wrestling. My friends and I used to do this, I think. We called it combat ball-sports. We’d play catch/baseball, football, or basketball, with no fouls, and hurt each other trying to win. A ton of fun, but unless there’s a ball and glove, I fail to see how yanking someone’s arm will help me in a SD situation.

Those are all jokes, obviously. I don’t know enough about any of those to place them. I thought about placing WC around tier 6, and Pencak around tier 4, but the lack of knowledge I have about them would be dishonest. Plus I need this to fill out all 9 tiers. As for why Tier 7-this was when I realized I didn’t have enough tiers if I left them out.

Tier 8:

Systema. From what I can tell the average systema school is just..not good. It’s similar to krav without the advantage of aggression, has consistency issues, and pressure-testing issues. That said, they do deal with more than just compliant partners refusing to punch you, and have the intention of SD, so I couldn’t place it in Tier 9.

Tier 9:

Aikido. I’ve talked to a lot of aikidoka, and I’d say about 80% of them have informed me that they don’t do competition, or real resistance drills even, and also that punches are not used in Aikido. There are exceptions of course, but the average student would come out after 1-2 years knowing how to throw a compliant person, not knowing what to do if they resist in an unexpected way, and not knowing what to do if they punch at you.

I added a few, but don’t think I took out any of the arts you listed.

Still reading this but want to just note that tier one on my written list above is actually the second tier. In the video they didn’t rank any martial art as an S level.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They can rank the styles they’re familiar with, though. How would you rank them?

I wouldn't.

 

[Steve]

I wouldn't.

Got it. Stirring the pot then. Cool.

 

[Steve]

So just compared my list to his. I'm suprised he put wrestling up on it's own, and don't know what differentiates it from catch-wrestling. Most of the rest is similar or I can understand, though I don't know his logic. With the exception of my tier 7 arts which I can't really say what makes sense, even with broad assumptions. And kali deserves to be higher.

I would put kali higher, too. And I am a big fan of sumo. I’d also out TKD a little higher than they did.

Personally, I’d also put parkour somewhere in there… slightly below the middle…though it’s not technically a martial art.

 

[drop bear]

So just compared my list to his. I'm suprised he put wrestling up on it's own, and don't know what differentiates it from catch-wrestling. Most of the rest is similar or I can understand, though I don't know his logic. With the exception of my tier 7 arts which I can't really say what makes sense, even with broad assumptions. And kali deserves to be higher.

Catch or folk should theoretically rank higher. Because you get points for standing back up and escaping.

Which then becomes this phenomenal defence toolset. And also why it is highly considered for MMA with the ground punching

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So here’s my ranking list. Keep in mind as I said I have not seen the original video. I also copied all the arts down onto a google doc without looking to see where they all landed, so that I’m making a list rather than altering roka’s.

Also keep in mind that I have not tried all these arts, some of this is likely inaccurate info since I’m going based on my own assumptions and information about the styles, even the ones I’ve trained in. NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THIS LIST AS FACTUAL. I AM BORED AND THIS SEEMED FUN, IT IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE.

Thirdly, within a tier all styles are equal-or at least I didn’t put thought into ranking them against each other. At the spots where they’re separated by paragraph, that’s not saying the top art is better, it’s just how I happened to separate to explain my thoughts.

Finally, I’m going with the criteria steve gave in his earlier post, with the addition of the “average” school of that style. There are definitely schools from my Tier 2 style that leave students less prepared than schools in the Tier 9 styles (think about stuff like the no-touch BJJ that’s rare but exists, and Tomiki Aikido).

Tier 1:

None. I’m assuming this is ‘SSS’ rank, and I don’t think any art is good enough that the average student develops their students to this level.

Mainly because most arts leave out a crucial skill (ie: what’s a boxer going to do if he gets tackled before he realizes a fight is starting), and de-escalation.

Tier 2:

Customer Service jobs, Therapy & Social work jobs, and MMA.

I put those two in as tongue-in-cheek, since they hit something (with consistent practice), that, as mentioned above, martial arts tend not to. MMA is here because they typically train with feedback, and learn enough skills that whatever combat situation arises they should be okay, with the exception of an armed opponent.

Tier 3:

Is GJJ goshin jiujitsu, or something else? I’m not aware it’s popular, but I’d place it here if it is, since that’s kind of MMA-lite. If it’s something else, no ranking since I don’t know it.

Wrestling, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Judo and BJJ. I’m putting these all here because they teach with resistance, but have holes on their own. If someone learns kickboxing or muay thai and ends up on the ground, they’re in a troublesome situation. If someone learns judo, wrestling or BJJ and are in a situation where they can’t grapple (or the person they’re fighting nows how to keep distance), they’re also in a troublesome situation. This is easily resolved by cross-training, or training somewhere that teaches you how to deal with their weakspots, but from my understanding/experiences, the average place does not do that.

Kenpo. Similar to GJJ (if I got it right), it’s MMA-lite. It doesn’t have any specific weak spots, and has the benefit of teaching specific techniques to hopefully improve reaction upon being attacked. However, not all schools encourage competition or realistic resistance training, and there are so many branches the quality is not consistent. I’d say the median ability of kenpo students after 2 years training would probably be very different than the mean (and not sure which way it skews).

Cross-country/track. Not a martial art, but probably has saved a lot of lives simply by having better cardio and being able to run away from the guy trying to hurt you. Doesn’t work if your trapped, or trying to save your friends/family/strangers if you’re really nice.

Tier 4:

Lethwei. From what I understand, and this may be inaccurate, this is similar to Muay Thai except it has older training methods, focuses on skills that were more important in the past, and teaches archaic weapons. While I’d personally like that over MT, that causes the issue that it likely was more effective for SD in the past vs. now.

Boxing. Similar to the other limited combat sports in Tier 3, except more limited-if you can’t use your hands for whatever reason, or the person has a weapon that’s keeping you out of reach, then a lot of what you know is now useless.

Kali/Escrima. One of, if not my top, favorite arts, it can teach you everything you need to know. Where I learned, they teach hand striking, grappling (with and without weapon), weapon use against weapon, weapon use against empty-hand, and empty-hand against weapon. They go over weapon retention as well, and often involve a lot of sparring/resistance in all of those, and you can find competitions to test your skills. The reason it’s not ranked higher is because from my understanding a lot of schools only teach (particularly with resistance) weapon vs. weapon. That’s great if you end up in that situation. But chances are you will not, so the average practitioner would probably be seriously lacking on the empty-hand and grappling aspects (even though grappling can improve your weapon ability a ton).

Tier 5:

Capoeira, Krav Maga, Sumo (I added sumo). These all teach things that you can use to win a fight very quickly very suddenly. Capoeira, the opponents not expecting you to suddenly do a triple flip and axe kick his temple. KM and Sumo, teach a level of aggression and how to use that aggression to overwhelm at the start. That said, if you don’t end it quickly, your in trouble since the weaknesses of each art comes out.

Tier 6:

JJJ, Karate, TKD, JKD. Probably going to get some flak for this, but all of these suffer from the same issue. They all could be at the same level as the tier 3 arts, but the average level of ability I’d guess is much lower. Not because of the arts, but because of how often they are targeted to children, and taught as ‘easy’ arts, where you don’t have to be as serious, and in two of them you don’t have much resistance training/sparring/competition on average, while the other two add too many safety precautions and suffer from point sparring lowering what people expect after a year or two what will happen in an actual fight (at that point in training, if you do point sparring people seem to expect their opponent will go down with that first blow and not follow up, since that’s how they train and they haven’t seen anything to dispute it. Eventually they should get over that misconception, but not yet).

Tier 7:

Pencak Silat. They fight with scarves-how’s that useful?

WC. Made for women. The average martial artist is male. Therefore, this style is not made for the average martial artist.

Ninjutsu. In self defense you’re not typically sneaking up and assassinating your opponent. So half of what they learn is useless.

Catch Wrestling. My friends and I used to do this, I think. We called it combat ball-sports. We’d play catch/baseball, football, or basketball, with no fouls, and hurt each other trying to win. A ton of fun, but unless there’s a ball and glove, I fail to see how yanking someone’s arm will help me in a SD situation.

Those are all jokes, obviously. I don’t know enough about any of those to place them. I thought about placing WC around tier 6, and Pencak around tier 4, but the lack of knowledge I have about them would be dishonest. Plus I need this to fill out all 9 tiers. As for why Tier 7-this was when I realized I didn’t have enough tiers if I left them out.

Tier 8:

Systema. From what I can tell the average systema school is just..not good. It’s similar to krav without the advantage of aggression, has consistency issues, and pressure-testing issues. That said, they do deal with more than just compliant partners refusing to punch you, and have the intention of SD, so I couldn’t place it in Tier 9.

Tier 9:

Aikido. I’ve talked to a lot of aikidoka, and I’d say about 80% of them have informed me that they don’t do competition, or real resistance drills even, and also that punches are not used in Aikido. There are exceptions of course, but the average student would come out after 1-2 years knowing how to throw a compliant person, not knowing what to do if they resist in an unexpected way, and not knowing what to do if they punch at you.

I added a few, but don’t think I took out any of the arts you listed.

Wow.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Got it. Stirring the pot then. Cool.

Oh , I believe that is exactly what this thread and that video were meant to do. Do go on. I will start the popcorn.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Catch or folk should theoretically rank higher. Because you get points for standing back up and escaping.

Which then becomes this phenomenal defence toolset. And also why it is highly considered for MMA with the ground punching

Ill have to look into it at some point. I've heard the term before, but have no idea what the ruleset is, how it's typically trained or how it translates to mma or sd