Ranking Martial Arts for Self Defensw

[Steve]

Rokas video. It’s long but I enjoyed it. Very little in it I didn’t agree with. If you’re impatient, you can skip toward the end to hear the summary.

 

[Gyakuto]

I find the fascination with the self-defence effectiveness of combat arts a bit of a red-herring. From my limited experience, combat sports work really well against others using the same art, but when confronted with a different system, they don’t fare so well (have a look at all the ‘MMA vs XYZ’ videos on Youtube, for example, although I’m sure there are the odd exceptions). We used to occasionally have boxers attend our dojo and they would metaphorically, and sometimes literally, wipe the floor with us Karateka when it came to free-sparring. Perhaps learning how to block, kick and punch will give you the advantage over a drunken arm-swinger, but one should learn an art for the beauty, history and tradition and perhaps a delightful consequence of that will be the ability to dodge the occasional punch and not die immediately in an altercation (grenade rolled-in).

 

[dunc]

Hmm I really wish people (ie the folk on this video) had the integrity to say "I really don't know much about that style, so I don't think I can decide where to rank it"

 

[Steve]

Hmm I really wish people (ie the folk on this video) had the integrity to say "I really don't know much about that style, so I don't think I can decide where to rank it"

Do you disagree with their observations about some of the styles? I really appreciated their comments about Aikido. I thought that was interesting.

Personally I think there's plenty of information about every art around, and they seemed very careful to point out that there are individual exceptions where people or individual schools were training a style differently than the norm. More importantly, the discussion they had was (IMO) really interesting. They explained their rationale and summed things up well in the end.

They also made it clear that they were looking at effectiveness for self defense after a few years of typical training. The long lead time to practical application is, in some arts, a part of their marketing.

 

[dunc]

Yeah, well I can only speak to the arts that I've studied to some depth
BJJ / GJJ - His assertion is that everyone is fighting from their backs which is clearly not the case otherwise we'd all be lying on the floor next to each other when rolling,,, and in relation to GJJ he clearly states that he doesn't know how it's different, but makes assumptions based on a program/videos put out by a subset of the family snd goes on to rank it
Bujinkan - He states that he has no idea what they do and has zero experience of the art then goes on to disparage it and rank it. He then talks about Japanese JJ (essentially the same content as Bujinkan) and ranks it differently. He finishes with how useful break falling is, which is one of the great strengths of the Bujinkan training

 

[Steve]

Yeah, well I can only speak to the arts that I've studied to some depth
BJJ / GJJ - His assertion is that everyone is fighting from their backs which is clearly not the case otherwise we'd all be lying on the floor next to each other when rolling,,, and in relation to GJJ he clearly states that he doesn't know how it's different, but makes assumptions based on a program/videos put out by a subset of the family snd goes on to rank it
Bujinkan - He states that he has no idea what they do and has zero experience of the art then goes on to rate it. He then talks about Japanese JJ (essentially the same content as Bujinkan) and ranks it differently. He finishes with how useful break falling is, which is one of the great strengths of the Bujinkan training

Where would you rank those arts? What about other arts? If you aren't comfortable ranking a style, don't worry about it. Just rank the ones you know.

 

[mograph]

Must ... not ... look ... in closet.

 

[Steve]

Must ... not ... look ... in closet.

Do it.

 

[dunc]

Where would you rank those arts? What about other arts? If you aren't comfortable ranking a style, don't worry about it. Just rank the ones you know.

My point was that the fella doing the ranking opined on arts that he had no experience of. Rather than being honest and saying he didn't know so couldn't rank those styles

I'd say that in terms of self defence (which is not the focus of either style) and speaking in terms of the average dojo/academy:
The Bujinkan gives you almost all of the theory, many of the techniques and very little of the practical training. Whereas BJJ / GJJ gives you very little of the theory, some of the techniques and a huge amount of practical experience

So where you rank them depends on your relative priorities on these dimensions which is very subjective

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I started to watch, but it’s a bit long. I’ll chime in with some thoughts later today once I’ve had a chance to get through the whole thing.

 

[Oily Dragon]

My point was that the fella doing the ranking opined on arts that he had no experience of. Rather than being honest and saying he didn't know so couldn't rank those styles

Welcome to the Internet.

 

[Unkogami]

A lot of people insist on separating things that really aren't. Everything you've ever learned/trained/tested in real life conditions informs what tools you bring to bear during a given situation.

 

[Oily Dragon]

A lot of people insist on separating things that really aren't. Everything you've ever learned/trained/tested in real life conditions informs what tools you bring to bear during a given situation.

Nowhere is this more true than martial arts styles man.

Bruce Lee talked about this a lot, the stagnancy of styles. It's true no matter where you look, anybody who claims their style is best, starts to resemble a very fixed pattern, locked into position.

Even BJJ dudes get caught up in their "lifestyle" as if it's unique to their art, and at the same time often diminish the Kung Fu lifestyle, which done well is legitimately tough trainingas well.

The Wing Chun peeps love to fight each other online, but can barely be seen in competition. For them it's all about who/what/where. Again, in isolation from other arts, what do you really know about your own? That's how you get a martial art that claims to be best for self defense but can't even seem to score points fighting. Makes me one sad panda.

Self defense is one of those goofy terms we love to use. I never use it. If I defended myself successfully with Wing Chun I guess I might be able to say "I used it for self defense!". But then I'd have to correct myself and remind me that I learned the same techniques in other arts.

When you look at the "DJs" of style like Wong Fei Hung or Helio Gracie, you see the key is to expand your horizons. Absorb everything.

 

[O'Malley]

Do you disagree with their observations about some of the styles? I really appreciated their comments about Aikido. I thought that was interesting.

Personally I think there's plenty of information about every art around, and they seemed very careful to point out that there are individual exceptions where people or individual schools were training a style differently than the norm. More importantly, the discussion they had was (IMO) really interesting. They explained their rationale and summed things up well in the end.

They also made it clear that they were looking at effectiveness for self defense after a few years of typical training. The long lead time to practical application is, in some arts, a part of their marketing.

I stopped after they seriously suggested that aikido's founder gained his reputation because he was a superhuman and that's why people can't replicate what he did. We're probing the sewers of intelligence here.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My point was that the fella doing the ranking opined on arts that he had no experience of. Rather than being honest and saying he didn't know so couldn't rank those styles

I'd say that in terms of self defence (which is not the focus of either style) and speaking in terms of the average dojo/academy:
The Bujinkan gives you almost all of the theory, many of the techniques and very little of the practical training. Whereas BJJ / GJJ gives you very little of the theory, some of the techniques and a huge amount of practical experience

So where you rank them depends on your relative priorities on these dimensions which is very subjective

Very well said. People say things about arts they never studied on this very site almost daily. To which my reply is always the same, it is never about style it is about the individual person, and even more important is the teaching method. Very few of us only ever practiced one art to the exclusion of all other ideas. Even fewer have practiced that one art to full complete mastery. I use myself as example, I have practiced southern gung fu and Yang long Tai Chi Chuan for over 25 years. I teach but I do not refer to myself as anything but my name. I am simply a student of martial arts. I trained in boxing, JJJ, and MT long before I found my CMA Sifu. Although I teach CMA, I include boxing drills and punches, MT kicks, etc. In my teaching, just as my Sifu and Sigung did. It wouldn’t be fair to lump me in with CMA in general and rank my style and method without training with me for an accurate assessment. Likewise, it would be false and foolish of me to tout the greater effectiveness of my style without first trying out whatever, and, more importantly, whoever I was comparing to. The wide range of teaching ability in every style is what makes these stylistic comparisons such nonsense. I strive to be as honest and realistic as possible with my students. I want them to know up front that I have very high expectations, but that there is also a vast world of martial arts out there to learn and experience that I may know nothing about. I hope to give them something valuable, not just some marketing claim, some thing of substance that goes beyond a self defense rating.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A lot of people insist on separating things that really aren't. Everything you've ever learned/trained/tested in real life conditions informs what tools you bring to bear during a given situation.

Truth.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I find the fascination with the self-defence effectiveness of combat arts a bit of a red-herring. From my limited experience, combat sports work really well against others using the same art, but when confronted with a different system, they don’t fare so well (have a look at all the ‘MMA vs XYZ’ videos on Youtube, for example, although I’m sure there are the odd exceptions). We used to occasionally have boxers attend our dojo and they would metaphorically, and sometimes literally, wipe the floor with us Karateka when it came to free-sparring. Perhaps learning how to block, kick and punch will give you the advantage over a drunken arm-swinger, but one should learn an art for the beauty, history and tradition and perhaps a delightful consequence of that will be the ability to dodge the occasional punch and not die immediately in an altercation (grenade rolled-in).

There is a lot of truth here, though many schools/practitioners would be hesitant to say it. TMA began with combat effectiveness as the very dominant goal as most of its early practitioners were professionals in the field. But even then, the approach used led to some of the intangible qualities that are now the main focus in modern TMA, appealing to a wide variety of practitioners.

As you mentioned, the self-defense aspect has often become just a beneficial side-effect in MA training, appealing to millions of people who currently enjoy the art. Some are more interested in fighting than others. I think there is enough variety among schools to offer the public a choice of where they want to train, depending where on the combat-hobby spectrum they want to be. Some want to be "fighters", others just want an interesting and healthy hobby. But most, I think, want to be somewhere in the middle. Just where in that middle area is dependent on personal preference and goals.

I like the non-combat aspects of TMA: Tradition, art, theory, life lessons, fitness, etc. As for the self-defense aspect, I put a good amount of importance to that as well. The average person has very low fighting ability, say 5-10%. If MA training can get them to 40%, it was well worth the time (and money) spent. That would give them a fighting chance. More serious practitioners may get to 70-80% and be confident in most common fighting scenarios.

My personal view is that MA training must use practical self-defense as the vehicle to reach any of the other many benefits it is able to offer us. "Martial arts" can be many things, but it must be martial.

 

[lklawson]

I find the fascination with the self-defence effectiveness of combat arts a bit of a red-herring. From my limited experience, combat sports work really well against others using the same art, but when confronted with a different system, they don’t fare so well (have a look at all the ‘MMA vs XYZ’ videos on Youtube, for example, although I’m sure there are the odd exceptions). We used to occasionally have boxers attend our dojo and they would metaphorically, and sometimes literally, wipe the floor with us Karateka when it came to free-sparring. Perhaps learning how to block, kick and punch will give you the advantage over a drunken arm-swinger, but one should learn an art for the beauty, history and tradition and perhaps a delightful consequence of that will be the ability to dodge the occasional punch and not die immediately in an altercation (grenade rolled-in).

Self defense where? When? For what? Self defense in the U.S. 2022 is different from Venezuela 2022 which is different from Germany 1550, which is different from the Philippines 1700, which is different from Hawaii 1200, which is different from Rome 500 B.C.

I agree with you, it's a goofball chase.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I'm old school, I'm going with Sinanju over Amer-Do-Te.

What can I say, I'm a purist.

 

[Steve]

My point was that the fella doing the ranking opined on arts that he had no experience of. Rather than being honest and saying he didn't know so couldn't rank those styles

I'd say that in terms of self defence (which is not the focus of either style) and speaking in terms of the average dojo/academy:
The Bujinkan gives you almost all of the theory, many of the techniques and very little of the practical training. Whereas BJJ / GJJ gives you very little of the theory, some of the techniques and a huge amount of practical experience

So where you rank them depends on your relative priorities on these dimensions which is very subjective

Just to say and then I'll let it drop... I don't think honesty or dishonesty is in play here. But I do understand that you don't like the idea of opining on arts you haven't personally trained. Fair enough. I disagree that you need to train it to discuss it or have an opinion about it, but if that's what you think, I'm not asking you to change.

What I am still interested in is where you'd rank the styles you're familiar with.