Rage Dreams

[Tez3]

Whether one trains with an instructor or by ones self, it is not normal to post up (with one exception other than the OP I can think of here) that one is 'awsome' and fantastic at fighting and can do everything really well, now that is impossible however one learns. What it is however is an indication that this could be a troll, hopefully not but it is a big red flashing warning light.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think perhaps the analogy that works best here, even tho' it has been used so often that it is a cliche, is the one about surgeons. It's especially true in the armed arts but it applies across the board.

You are seriously ill and need an operation to survive. You are presented with two choices of doctor. One is a natural genius and claims to be utterly self taught, never having taken a class in human anatomy in his life and never actually done a real operation before. The other is a Professor of a school of medicine of medium precedence; not the best, not the worst but with a decent reputation. Who would you select to operate on you?

 

[WC_lun]

I've been practicing martial arts for over 25 years. Year after year I have seen kids come in "self trained." Without exception thier energy for learning is high, but thier fundamentals are freaking terrible. It takes twice as long to train them because you must reprogram thier body reactions. Many also have egoes that need to be altered. Self training when you are at a beginning level is just not possible for any martial art that is used for anything beyond forms. There is no similating resisting opponents and contact without training partners. There is no breaking bad habits or creating new good habits without someone who knows what to look for. It sucks for someone who wants to train that cannot get access to the training they want, but that is real life.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Since this is now apparently about Self Training as opposed to "rage dreams" (which sounds like the weirdest thing ever), I'll add my two cents.
I'm mostly with Iklawson on this one. Yes you can learn some things on your own, but it is the worst possible way to learn something. First, there is no one to correct you when you make mistakes. Without a teacher or coach, you have no idea if you are actually doing what you think you should be doing. Second, martial arts teachings are often hidden within the forms, that's why you need a teacher to explain what the point of the form is. Even if it's something purely mechanical you still need someone to correct you and make sure your body positioning is right.

Now, once you have some sort of established base in your art you can start self-training to a degree. That is, you can work on refinement of what you already do and experiment with ideas building off previous lessons, but you still need a teacher to check your progress.

Without fidning a QUALIFIEDinstructor, the best you can do is teach yourself some very basic movements and postures and maybe learn about some very basic tactics, but you will never understand how the art applies all those fundamental lessons in real time or what any of the lessons are hidden in what appears to be an obvious form.

 

[frank raud]

Since this is now apparently about Self Training as opposed to "rage dreams" (which sounds like the weirdest thing ever), I'll add my two cents.
I'm mostly with Iklawson on this one. Yes you can learn some things on your own, but it is the worst possible way to learn something. First, there is no one to correct you when you make mistakes. Without a teacher or coach, you have no idea if you are actually doing what you think you should be doing. Second, martial arts teachings are often hidden within the forms, that's why you need a teacher to explain what the point of the form is. Even if it's something purely mechanical you still need someone to correct you and make sure your body positioning is right.

Now, once you have some sort of established base in your art you can start self-training to a degree. That is, you can work on refinement of what you already do and experiment with ideas building off previous lessons, but you still need a teacher to check your progress.

Without fidning a QUALIFIEDinstructor, the best you can do is teach yourself some very basic movements and postures and maybe learn about some very basic tactics, but you will never understand how the art applies all those fundamental lessons in real time or what any of the lessons are hidden in what appears to be an obvious form.

To add to this excellent post, the OP is self learning multiple arts that have diiferent concepts and forms of execution of their techniques. It is difficult enough for most people to learn the proper mechanics of one martial art at a time, with a qualified instructor, let alone 4 or more martial arts at once, with no one to correct errors. If the only reason to stop punching trees is because you are concerned with the swelling it causes, it is really difficult to say you getting good instruction from yourself. If you want to learn about self, study philosophy, if you want to learn to be calm, perhaps learn to meditate. Both these are related to martial arts, but do not require that you cause damage to your body in order to practice.

 

[Tez3]

Since this is now apparently about Self Training as opposed to "rage dreams" (which sounds like the weirdest thing ever), I'll add my two cents.
I'm mostly with Iklawson on this one. Yes you can learn some things on your own, but it is the worst possible way to learn something. First, there is no one to correct you when you make mistakes. Without a teacher or coach, you have no idea if you are actually doing what you think you should be doing. Second, martial arts teachings are often hidden within the forms, that's why you need a teacher to explain what the point of the form is. Even if it's something purely mechanical you still need someone to correct you and make sure your body positioning is right.

Now, once you have some sort of established base in your art you can start self-training to a degree. That is, you can work on refinement of what you already do and experiment with ideas building off previous lessons, but you still need a teacher to check your progress.

Without fidning a QUALIFIEDinstructor, the best you can do is teach yourself some very basic movements and postures and maybe learn about some very basic tactics, but you will never understand how the art applies all those fundamental lessons in real time or what any of the lessons are hidden in what appears to be an obvious form.

I rather imgaine the two things are linked, having an instructor would surely rationalise and calm down any odd dreams by the proper practice of martial arts technique rather than over exciting the 'I am awesome' gland that is obviously causing these dreams!

 

[yanike]

@lklawson,
I didn't mean to get on anyone's bad side or anything. You take my original post as boasting when I wasn't boasting. I was just trying to tell what I've been reading and learning.

"I've gotten really good from practicing, reading, and learning key techniques (some I've thought of)
very well to the point it's natural."

I wasn't saying I could beat people or that I'm the "best" or anything. I was just saying from my experience when I first started to now that I'm natural with the select techniques I wanted to learn in my way. I can't explain it, but I don't have to think or concentrate on doing things anymore like I was when I started. My body naturally does it. If I want to do certain kick, I kick with full power and control (when I started my leg was terrible and I couldn't tell you the difference between a back roadhouse kick and straight back-kick). When I punch, I no longer hesistate or think about form, it just happens with hip action (I still don't get the feet power stuff, but whatever). If I need to jump or do crazy stuff in the air, I just do it and land back in the stance I wanted to land in. I might not have a pro trainer like you or have a fancy place to train, but at least it's something I'm passionate about doing.

Self-training to me is fun because it's something I want to do. I'm not forced to do it and if I didn't want to do it I would have quit by now. Also, I like self-training because I can learn what I want without having to go through 2 week.. 3 week drills. Martial arts to me is not about killing (which is why my dream alerted me), not about being the bad *** on the block, or anything boasting. It to me is about finding self, conditioning your body for better health, and giving you confidence to stand in certain situations you would crumble in.

Yea, it might be better to have someone skilled watching me, but sometimes the feel of a technique is enough to know when you are doing it right. Especially when you do it and don't question it. By the way, I was punching and kicking trees to build my knuckles (I know about knuckle push-ups, and the other stuff) and also work on taking and handling pain.

 

[oaktree]

I will address the OP.

Hi Yanike

I've been self teaching myself Wing Chun, Wushu, Jeet Kune Do, and other forms of martial arts for finding SELF.

There is an old lawyer saying in regards to being your own defense lawyer without any experience "An uneducated man who represents himself has a fool for a client."
As the movie School for Scoundrels says" How many of you have self-help books? Okay, that's your first problem. You can't help yourself, because your *self* sucks!"
Let us put this in the context in teaching yourself in martial arts. First let us agree you can learn something it most likely will be inaccurate or give you bad habits.

You as the teacher who never trained or have the experience are doing a great dis-service for you the student. Would you as a student want to learn from a teacher who is teaching himself from books? Think critical and switch out the word martial art and in it's place put the word doctor or lawyer.

I've gotten really good from practicing, reading, and learning key techniques (some I've thought of) very well to the point it's natural

How do you know honestly if you really are improving? You need real feed back from someone who has been there and can correct any mistakes. I have a teacher and sometimes when I am practicing the form I think I have gotten real good or I look like the videos I watch and my teacher corrects me still!

Lately I've moved on from using hand wraps to punching bare hands and kicking trees and other hard surfaces and it just feels like I'm wearing pads

Hitting very hard surfaces can damage your body. You need to have a teacher show you the proper preparations and proper way to do this.

I really don't know if that is good or not. I stopped recently because the swelling concerned me.

Swelling is not good. If you have a teacher to guide you he can help prevent this and/or reduce your chances of being hurt worse.

wonder if all this self training I'm doing to be calm and emotionless under fear or anger is affecting me.

Maybe. Seek medical advice from a license professional concerning medical inquiries.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Yanike,
I see you have post again.

I like self-training because I can learn what I want without having to go through 2 week.. 3 week drills.

This. There is a reason you have drills. Because you do not have a teacher you do not know how important drills and fundamentals are.
Here is a secret: The fundamentals are the meat and potatoes of any art the more advance stuff is the gravy and parsley used to garnish and add flavor to the dish.
You seem to want to be a chef and just put gravy and parsley on plates and call it meatloaf and mash potatoes.
That's ok if you want to do that but I like to think you are serious in learning and are willing to take constructive sometimes blunt honesty in guiding you in the right direction.

Good luck and I hope you do not harm yourself or others.

 

[Tez3]

@lklawson,
I didn't mean to get on anyone's bad side or anything. You take my original post as boasting when I wasn't boasting. I was just trying to tell what I've been reading and learning.

"I've gotten really good from practicing, reading, and learning key techniques (some I've thought of)
very well to the point it's natural."

I wasn't saying I could beat people or that I'm the "best" or anything. I was just saying from my experience when I first started to now that I'm natural with the select techniques I wanted to learn in my way. I can't explain it, but I don't have to think or concentrate on doing things anymore like I was when I started. My body naturally does it. If I want to do certain kick, I kick with full power and control (when I started my leg was terrible and I couldn't tell you the difference between a back roadhouse kick and straight back-kick). When I punch, I no longer hesistate or think about form, it just happens with hip action (I still don't get the feet power stuff, but whatever). If I need to jump or do crazy stuff in the air, I just do it and land back in the stance I wanted to land in. I might not have a pro trainer like you or have a fancy place to train, but at least it's something I'm passionate about doing.

Self-training to me is fun because it's something I want to do. I'm not forced to do it and if I didn't want to do it I would have quit by now. Also, I like self-training because I can learn what I want without having to go through 2 week.. 3 week drills. Martial arts to me is not about killing (which is why my dream alerted me), not about being the bad *** on the block, or anything boasting. It to me is about finding self, conditioning your body for better health, and giving you confidence to stand in certain situations you would crumble in.

Yea, it might be better to have someone skilled watching me, but sometimes the feel of a technique is enough to know when you are doing it right. Especially when you do it and don't question it. By the way, I was punching and kicking trees to build my knuckles (I know about knuckle push-ups, and the other stuff) and also work on taking and handling pain.

What is a roadhouse kick and a straight back kick? Why are you doing 'crazy stuff' in the air?

Please, find an instructor, you obviously have passion, don't let it go to waste by doing bad techniques, learn properly you will get so much more out of your martial arts.
Sometimes the feel of the technique doesn't tell you that you are doing it correctly, it tells you that your body is doing it in a way that's easier for you which doesn't mean it's the correct way to stop damage to hips, back and neck. You said you don't get the 'feet power' stuff, if you can't explain what that is how do you know you won't do yourself some damage, not immediately but in the longer term and permanently?

 

[yanike]

What is a roadhouse kick and a straight back kick? Why are you doing 'crazy stuff' in the air?

Please, find an instructor, you obviously have passion, don't let it go to waste by doing bad techniques, learn properly you will get so much more out of your martial arts.
Sometimes the feel of the technique doesn't tell you that you are doing it correctly, it tells you that your body is doing it in a way that's easier for you which doesn't mean it's the correct way to stop damage to hips, back and neck. You said you don't get the 'feet power' stuff, if you can't explain what that is how do you know you won't do yourself some damage, not immediately but in the longer term and permanently?

Sorry I meant roundhouse*

The feet power using it to send energy from foot through hip to hand. I know the knowledge behind it, but don't see myself generating energy from there.

 

[frank raud]

Sorry I meant roundhouse*

The feet power using it to send energy from foot through hip to hand. I know the knowledge behind it, but don't see myself generating energy from there.

Then you cant be generating much power with your hips.

 

[WC_lun]

"I like self-training because I can learn what I want without having to go through 2 week.. 3 week drills."

This statement is typical of someone who should not be teaching, himself or others. 2 to 3 weeks for drills is nothing. However, those drills are where the basics are being trained into a person's body and mind. So essentially what you are telling any martial artist with experience is that you don't have any basics and don't know how to get them. At the same time you say you are good. Do you understand that if you do not have the base of a system, you are not good? Anything built upon a weak base will collapse, this is as true for martial arts as it is archetecture. Having a desire to learn and great energy to pursue that are great things. Those attributes must be channeled correctly though, or you waste your time and perhaps even do yourself harm.

 

[Omar B]

Can't throw a real punch
Can't throw a real kick
Develops bad habits and bad form leading to joint and ligament damage
Beaten to a bloody pulp in a real fight

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Fortunately, self-training is self-correcting.

Most who choose to self-train (and it's amazing how my seem to think they have 'invented' or 'thought up on their own' several formerly unknown moves) either lose interest and drift away from it, or they are schooled the hard way when they attempt apply their 'skills' in a self-defense situation.

To the OP, I mean no insult, but I agree with the vast majority here who say that self-training is worse than useless because it creates and then reinforces bad habits, which will be difficult to unlearn later if you ever receive actual training.

If you have trouble accepting instruction because you disagree with the teaching methods, I humbly suggest that you are not ready to receive martial arts instruction, because a great deal of it in the beginning involves so-called 'robotic motion' which may seem worthless to you, but which has value that you cannot understand because you do not know what you do not know.

This suggests that you lack humility, patience, and the ability to recognize that perhaps those who are qualified instructors in martial arts know more about teaching it than you do.

Why don't you empty your cup, find a teacher who has a good reputation, and let him or her instruct you, without adding your own values to what you receive?

If you cannot humble yourself and become a true student, it is well that you seek no instructor, because you are not worthy of one, with all due respect.

 

[Omar B]

Second time today someone said "empty your cup" on here. Fist time being me. Yes, it is an important lesson, empty your cup.

 

[jks9199]

@lklawson,
"I've gotten really good from practicing, reading, and learning key techniques (some I've thought of)
very well to the point it's natural."

I wasn't saying I could beat people or that I'm the "best" or anything. I was just saying from my experience when I first started to now that I'm natural with the select techniques I wanted to learn in my way. I can't explain it, but I don't have to think or concentrate on doing things anymore like I was when I started. My body naturally does it. If I want to do certain kick, I kick with full power and control (when I started my leg was terrible and I couldn't tell you the difference between a back roadhouse kick and straight back-kick). When I punch, I no longer hesistate or think about form, it just happens with hip action (I still don't get the feet power stuff, but whatever). If I need to jump or do crazy stuff in the air, I just do it and land back in the stance I wanted to land in. I might not have a pro trainer like you or have a fancy place to train, but at least it's something I'm passionate about doing.

This is simply what happens when you practice anything, good or bad. When you first began walking, you fell a lot and had trouble standing up. Now, you don't think about it. Same thing with writing. So you've practiced whatever you've done until you no longer think about the pieces. That's normal -- and can be developed with good or bad habits and techniques.

Yea, it might be better to have someone skilled watching me, but sometimes the feel of a technique is enough to know when you are doing it right. Especially when you do it and don't question it. By the way, I was punching and kicking trees to build my knuckles (I know about knuckle push-ups, and the other stuff) and also work on taking and handling pain.

But... how do you know that it's the proper way? I'll give you a tip... often the most efficient and effective way is not the most natural or intuitive one. What's the safest direction to move against an attack, as a very solid general rule? Hint: it's not the one that feels natural or easy. In fact, it's probably the LEAST natural or intuitive direction.

Regarding your dreams... Could be a lot of things, everything from nothing more than dreams to working through some sort of anxiety to I can't guess... You're probably best advised to discuss it with someone with appropriate tools, like a psychologist or licensed clinical social worker.

 

[lklawson]

I would love to see a study backing up these opinions so we all could have some solid foundation to work from here but to date there aren't any.

You're right, having an actual teacher as opposed to "self teaching" is totally over rated and totally unsupported by "science." That is why, today, developed nations have pre-school, K-12, College, University, Trade Schools, Tutors, a powerful Union and strong support by the entire social structure. It's why Europe had training Guilds with ranks from Apprentice through Master. Heck it's so obvious that having an actual teacher as opposed to "self teaching" is such a bogus concept that the Greeks totally invented the characters of Prometheus and Mentor and why the Norse god Odin "All Father" traded his freaking eye.

Boy, you sure got me there by reminding me that when I said "self teaching is inefficient compared to a teacher" is only my "opinion" and insisting on a "study."

Seriously, man, did you actually read what you wrote before you clicked "post?"

 

[Omar B]

The long and short of it is, all of us can throw a ball. Takes a good coach and a good system to make a World Series winning pitcher. Or to continue the sporting analogy, look at Tebow, good all around player, but his bad throwing mechanics showed all his limitations when he left college and started facing real competition. Every time his hand comes up and his elbow cocks in that odd angle, the ball gripped by his fingertips not his whole hand, etc. I see a big strong guy who should be able to rocket the ball like Cutler, but no he cannot because he's got bad habits he cannot break.

 

[lklawson]

@lklawson,
I didn't mean to get on anyone's bad side or anything. You take my original post as boasting when I wasn't boasting. I was just trying to tell what I've been reading and learning.

"I've gotten really good from practicing, reading, and learning key techniques (some I've thought of)
very well to the point it's natural."

I wasn't saying I could beat people or that I'm the "best" or anything.

Ahem. You specifically said, "Also, I didn't like the fact the yellow and purple belts were struggling to perform techniques that I self taught myself to do in practice and sparing with others from time to time."

I was just saying from my experience when I first started to now that I'm natural with the select techniques I wanted to learn in my way. I can't explain it, but I don't have to think or concentrate on doing things anymore like I was when I started. My body naturally does it. If I want to do certain kick, I kick with full power and control (when I started my leg was terrible and I couldn't tell you the difference between a back roadhouse kick and straight back-kick). When I punch, I no longer hesistate or think about form, it just happens with hip action (I still don't get the feet power stuff, but whatever). If I need to jump or do crazy stuff in the air, I just do it and land back in the stance I wanted to land in.

And I'm "just saying," also from my experience, that you don't have the base, knowledge, or skills to know if this is true or not. Sure you think it is, but my experience is that his is purely self-delusion.

I might not have a pro trainer like you or have a fancy place to train, but at least it's something I'm passionate about doing.

Feh. You don't have to have a "pro" trainer or a "fancy place to train" but you do have to have someone to train you. I, and pretty much every one else, have already explained why. Multiple times. Yet you keep insisting that we're wrong, and you're right.

This is another reason you sound like a kid.

My wife has a favorite saying, "Hire a teenager while they still know everything."

Self-training to me is fun because it's something I want to do. I'm not forced to do it and if I didn't want to do it I would have quit by now.

At last, the truth. You are "self-training" not because you can't actually find an art being taught that you want to learn but because you think you're awesome.

Martial arts to me is not about killing (which is why my dream alerted me), not about being the bad *** on the block, or anything boasting. It to me is about finding self, conditioning your body for better health, and giving you confidence to stand in certain situations you would crumble in.

There's nothing wrong with those reasons. As long as you understand that there are a lot of martial artists who train because they want to be able to fight. They go and find a qualified instructor or coach. They'll also be able to hand you your hiney regardless of whether or not you think that yellow and purple belts are "struggling" to do stuff which your awesome self-teaching style has allowed you to become a natural at.

Yea, it might be better to have someone skilled watching me

Might? 10,000 years of human history seems to indicate that it is.

but sometimes the feel of a technique is enough to know when you are doing it right. Especially when you do it and don't question it. By the way, I was punching and kicking trees to build my knuckles (I know about knuckle push-ups, and the other stuff) and also work on taking and handling pain.

This is just more evidence of your inexperience.