Questions about Balintawak

[Dan Anderson]

What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?

Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?

Power?: Is there some sort of ego/self-esteem satisfaction to being top dog?

"The Art": Do people really care that the art stays "pure"

Mud Slinging: People just like to bad mouth people they dont like, and defend people they do?

Are peoples lives so hum-drum that they are looking for a little "soap opera" to keep things interesting?

Twangggggg! (whistling sound) Ka-thunk! Right dead center in the bulls eye. Good shot!

Yours,
Dan

PS- Hey Rich Curren. Howya doin'? I haven't heard from you in a while.

 

[Emptyglass]

PS- Hey Rich Curren. Howya doin'? I haven't heard from you in a while.

Prof. Dan:

Hello right back to you sir. I've been lurking and reading along (and training and working). Honestly all of this seems a bit dramatic. People get fired up online so easily it amazes me.

Interesting stuff though and I'm eager to see how it all turns out. By the way, Guro Ladra told me he liked the stuff you did at the Symposium very much when I showed it to him.

Best Regards,

Rich Curren

 

[loki09789]

Hi Rob:

This is an interesting statement as I have heard that Grandmaster Taboada slept at the feet of Great Grandmaster Bacon on the floor while training with him. Perhaps my memory is off or I am completely out of my skull here but that sounds like pretty serious stuff to me.

This being said, I only know what Grandmaster Taboada's Balintawak looks like as the only other practicioner I have seen is Sam Buot and his students. <shrug>

Regardless of the so-called "purity" (not that there's anything wrong with getting your information from one source) I'm quite happy with what I'm learning and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone else who's interested. It's all good.

Best Regards,

Richard Curren

I would go further on some of these "he never trained with so and so, he even said so..." types of comments because:

1. Did he (any of the "he's" that get bashed here) say it to you, in your presence, recorded/printed somewhere?

2. Are you working from stories from others? If so, remember the game "TELEPHONE" and how shifting one or two words, summarizing and any other variations can change the story from the original event.

3. The "he's" and in some cases the "she's" being discredited/slandered/liabled are not here to explain, defend or give any personal representation.

I have it from GM Bobby T's own mouth as well that he trained with GGM Bacon, but only after he had progressed through his other BK instructors.

Also the idea of "original vs variance" WHO CARES! Does it fly? Can YOU make it fly? Okay, move on. As far as I know, the BK club came from a tradition of individualization of art - not a 'frozen set' club.

GM Remy Presas admittedly had an ecclectic/mish mosh of other influences. Historically, is there anything that is 'pure' or is it really all just variations on a theme. Variations that we love, that work that make more sense to us.... but all variation none the less.

 

[loki09789]

The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL
248-722-1634

The lack of a profile is one thing in my checklist of things that I use to consider whether someone is 'trolling' or not. But, in Joe's case, I wouldn't go so far as calling him a troll. Without getting too deep into the issue, if we are going to start comparing Red Blade and Joe, the open informative info that he shares and the tone of it are far from trollish. Also the consistency of the written information that he presents in relation to his claimed training is solid.

Red Blade, on the other hand, has a history of asking questions, starting thread and making comments that show far more Modern Arnis background/political interest than 'using it to supplement' the FMA/JKD background that is on the profile. The lack of informed commentary about FMA or JKD as in the usual "At my school..." or mentioning who they train with, along with volumes of criticism in Red Blade posts - to the point of discrediting rank claims/instructor/lineage (including Dan Anderson, Bobby Taboada, Jeff Delaney, Ising Atillo....), business partnerships that they really shouldn't either care about or know anything about ALONG WITH the lack of a profile, forthright sharing of location or sources for BK commentary.... all point to trolling.

Why would someone who claims JKD/FMA background ask about where to get JKD seminar info from the internet?... that should be common knowledge on the training floor from either instructors or fellow students.

After reading back through Red Blade posting history it is really clear that there is an agenda of some kind, and that there is a WORLD of difference between Joe's indignation about being drawn into a ploy and Red Blades Sheeit Stirring. Read through the history to decide what the possible agenda is for yourself.

 

[DoxN4cer]

:shrug:

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

...So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

PAUL

Yes, we can hear it im many of your posts.

Troll? Trouble maker? Nah. I don't think Joe has threatened anyone here, and I don't think that he's purposely trying to annoy anyone in particular. I think that he's simply frustrated with the duplicitous nature of things and the obvious one-sided slant that is often displayed here.

Just because Joe's BS meter goes off and he says something about it doesn't make him a trouble maker or an internet troll.

Knit picking at every little thing that a particular person makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

Sniping and slandering a person who cannot post in this forum makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

Making threats, empty or otherwise, makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

I guess penace and introspection didn't pay off this past Lent. Well there's always next year. Good luck friend.

Tim Kashino
____________
Be, Know, Do

 

[Toasty]

Hey Joe,
You are an idiot.
I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding. BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff. Did you forget that?!.
And as I remember you started posting on here as a "newbie" to Balintawak asking a bunch of questions on history & such ...well it sure seems to me that you have "learned" an awful lot in an awful short time....makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is. Trolling perhaps?...More likely an Atillo shill...get stuffed.

Now pay attention here sunshine - I Have No Longer Have Any Interest In Anything That Has Anything To Do With Atillo Balintawak.

I did not piss all over the names or memories of Villasin, Velez, Chiuten, Mongcal or Maranga as "i did with Atillo" because as far as i know they (or their decendents) are not/were not spreading lies on the internet as Atillo was - pay attention child.

Once again I am quoted out of context and "cut & pasted" incorrectly - if you fools are gonna attempt to talk about what I wrote AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT!

I will now leave this site as well as any & all sites regarding martial arts on the internet none of the people on here are worth one more second of my time. How do you people get such high post counts? Do you never work or train? I have been on here since 2001 & only have like 56 posts...get a life.

Attn: EmptyGlass, again - i never said Gm Taboada did not train with Anciong, just that most of his training was from Villasin & Velez.

Att: Loki see above with regards to Gm Tabimina.

NOTE: I took specific care to list tham both as GrandMasters in this post as well as my previous post.
If you felt I have spoken out of turn or disrespected either of them I am truly sorry, that has never been my intention.

In many cases my sources have asked me not to use their names (much like a reporter folks) because of exactly what has happened to me - most of what i write taken out of context, quoted wrong, or incorrect "cut & paste" - and they are nice people & dont want their good names dragged thru the mud.
I other the hand, dont really give a crap, in as much as I am not a nice person.

And as for any overt or veiled threats and/or challenges, I have always stood by what i have written - all of it is my own (not fed by others).

The
End

Rob

 

[loki09789]

Hey Joe,
You are an idiot.
I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding. BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff. Did you forget that?!.
And as I remember you started posting on here as a "newbie" to Balintawak asking a bunch of questions on history & such ...well it sure seems to me that you have "learned" an awful lot in an awful short time....makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is. Trolling perhaps?...More likely an Atillo shill...get stuffed.

Now pay attention here sunshine - I Have No Longer Have Any Interest In Anything That Has Anything To Do With Atillo Balintawak.

I did not piss all over the names or memories of Villasin, Velez, Chiuten, Mongcal or Maranga as "i did with Atillo" because as far as i know they (or their decendents) are not/were not spreading lies on the internet as Atillo was - pay attention child.

Once again I am quoted out of context and "cut & pasted" incorrectly - if you fools are gonna attempt to talk about what I wrote AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT!

I will now leave this site as well as any & all sites regarding martial arts on the internet none of the people on here are worth one more second of my time. How do you people get such high post counts? Do you never work or train? I have been on here since 2001 & only have like 56 posts...get a life.

Attn: EmptyGlass, again - i never said Gm Taboada did not train with Anciong, just that most of his training was from Villasin & Velez.

Att: Loki see above with regards to Gm Tabimina.

NOTE: I took specific care to list tham both as GrandMasters in this post as well as my previous post.
If you felt I have spoken out of turn or disrespected either of them I am truly sorry, that has never been my intention.

In many cases my sources have asked me not to use their names (much like a reporter folks) because of exactly what has happened to me - most of what i write taken out of context, quoted wrong, or incorrect "cut & paste" - and they are nice people & dont want their good names dragged thru the mud.
I other the hand, dont really give a crap, in as much as I am not a nice person.

And as for any overt or veiled threats and/or challenges, I have always stood by what i have written - all of it is my own (not fed by others).

The
End

Rob

Before you go, what is it that you do? Who do you train with? What is your Martial background?....

 

[loki09789]

Att: Loki see above with regards to Gm Tabimina.

In many cases my sources have asked me not to use their names (much like a reporter folks) because of exactly what has happened to me - most of what i write taken out of context, quoted wrong, or incorrect "cut & paste" - and they are nice people & dont want their good names dragged thru the mud.
I other the hand, dont really give a crap, in as much as I am not a nice person.

And as for any overt or veiled threats and/or challenges, I have always stood by what i have written - all of it is my own (not fed by others).

The
End

Rob

The term "very little" time with Bacon is what I was responding to with the variation on information through each teller of the tale.

And, if you are posting stuff based on sources, then your opinion is being 'fed' by others in terms of what you are forming your words/opinions on. Stand by your words, but if you are the only one who knows the validity of the source - for what ever reason - expect others to comment.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Hey Joe,

You are an idiot.
I never meant to disrespect the elders & if you took it that way, I am sorry for your lack of understanding. BUT YOU started with all the "the founder of this art died in poverty" stuff. Did you forget that?!.

I am not even going to go down this path with you, Rob, you obviously have issues to deal with on your own. And for the record, I did not start anything. I was simply making my opinion heard about the commercialization, and surreptious advertising ploys, on this thread. I had already made clear that that statement was for DATU Tim Hartman, not Ted Buot. And YES, what you said about Velez, Villasin, Chiuten, Maranga, and others is--to say the very least--very disrespectful, especially since they cannot offer a rebuttle. As I have said before, this was theirs to sort out, not ours. You have managed to systematically crucify these Elders characters on the internet. So, please talk about the issues, but do not drag them here. Call me an idiot all you want, but do not defile these people's name in public.

 

[Cruentus]

My reasons for ignoring your phone call invitations are exactly for the reasons above. It would be a great waste of my time. Take what you can from what I wrote, but expect no phone calls from me.

First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue" ) would read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't call you a troll. I am saying that some of the signs are there. The fact that you offer no real information on your profile to indicate that your a real person is one thing (the same thing that "red blade" and others in the past have been hung out to dry for). The fact that we know very little about your training background, or your links to FMA is another. And, the fact that you refuse to communicate with me on a personal level (even prior to this blow up) is a MAJOR thing also that indicates trollish behavior.

Yes, you have offered some good conversation and good information that doesn't point to "troolish" behavior as well, which is why I didn't call you a troll, I just asked.

So I don't know who or what you are Joe. I don't know if your a genuine guy or not. But, let me tell you one thing I have learned about the net after some hard Introspection...

Internet forum stuff is not "true" communication by itself. Anyone can make up a fake name, give out fake information, and speculate and argue from this false perspective. What do you have when you have a bunch of people in a room with fake profiles speculating with each other? You have FANTASY communication....in other words it ain't real. It's almost like a role-playing game, except people can get hurt in this game on different levels through the politicing. Add this with the fact that things like "tone" and "body language" and other nonverbal communication (the other 90% of communication, I might add) are taken completely out of the picture, and you have a recipe for disaster. It is far to easy to psychologically distance yourself from others in "fantasy" communication, which means that many hurtful things can be easily said and done over the internet.

So, what makes the communication "real." Real information so people know who you are is a good start; however, I understand that some people may have certian constraints (perhaps their job won't allow it) where they can't put up their real info in a public forum. Yet, this is a very rare situation, and most of the time you can put your real info up. Outside of profile, private communication also makes it real, and not just through PM's (although that can be helpful). I am talking about getting on the phone at the very least, and talking with the person your communicating with online. This way you can recognize that the person on the other end of the keyboard as a real person, not some fantasy character with a goofy handle.

Looking back, the times that I was unwilling to communicate privately (much like you in this case) only led to dragged out "fantasy" arguements online. The times I was willing to privately communicate, many of those times unessicary arguements have been were avoided.

In friendly conversation, it doesn't make a difference, but in arguements or debates, "fantasy" communication can be nothing but destructive.

So, I am asking you Joe, do you want to be destructive or constructive? You don't have to call me or anyone (or at least let me call you), but understand that this is you choosing destructive communication over something constructive. Excuses like "it would be a waste of my time" are cop outs, particularly when fantasy communication on a talk forum is a far bigger waste of time then a 5-10 minute phone conversation.

Do what you want, just recognize that it will be difficult for me (and others) to take fantasy communication seriously.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?

Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?

Power?: Is there some sort of ego/self-esteem satisfaction to being top dog?

"The Art": Do people really care that the art stays "pure"

Mud Slinging: People just like to bad mouth people they dont like, and defend people they do?

Its probably not as easy as that...I know theres probably combinations of the above in any situation. Where does this @#$% stem from? Ive heard "The Fillipinos did this..." and "Japanese Systems did that..." but come on! A large chunk of us here are Americans. Just because I study a Fillipino Art dosent mean I live by any type of Fillipino ethos. Are peoples lives so hum-drum that they are looking for a little "soap opera" to keep things interesting?

I don't know Tom. The only thing I know is that you are making a little too much sense here to be on this thread. Back to "the study" with you! :uhyeah:

All I know is that I am a flawed person who is just trying to get better @ the arts. I know that I try to be honest, and when I see dishonesty, I tend to get pissy. I also realize more now then ever that most internet talk is "fantasy" when there is no voice or face to match what is written here.

So maybe we should posture less and train more? Perhaps people should stop wasting time on witch-hunts and crusades, and start spending more time being productive? I don't know...maybe I'm the big idiot here, and everyone else is smarter then me. :idunno:

 

[Cruentus]

Yes, we can hear it im many of your posts.

Troll? Trouble maker? Nah. I don't think Joe has threatened anyone here, and I don't think that he's purposely trying to annoy anyone in particular. I think that he's simply frustrated with the duplicitous nature of things and the obvious one-sided slant that is often displayed here.

Just because Joe's BS meter goes off and he says something about it doesn't make him a trouble maker or an internet troll.

Knit picking at every little thing that a particular person makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

Sniping and slandering a person who cannot post in this forum makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

Making threats, empty or otherwise, makes one an internet troll and a trouble maker.

I guess penace and introspection didn't pay off this past Lent. Well there's always next year. Good luck friend.

Tim Kashino
____________
Be, Know, Do

O.K. Tim K. You see my response 2 posts up in regards to "Trolling." You want to call me a "troll" I am sure, but that is impossible. I am a real person, with a real name, a real profile, a real viewpoint, and with real opinions. You may disagree with my viewpoint and opinions at times, but this doesn't make me a "troll." If people don't believe I am real, they can talk to me in person by phone, over a beer if we can meet, or we can let sticks or fists do the talking. Whatever it takes to convince whomever that I am definatily "real." This is hardly the stance of a "troll" who hides behind fantasy names and a keyboard.

You may not like me, or my opinions, and that is fine. Calling me a troll however, is laughable.

That being said, you owe me an apology for judging me, and attacking me & my faith. Your attacks are unessicary, and unproductive.

Yet, since it would seem that I am on your internet "hit list," and that you look to slam me on every turn based off past events and current affiliations, I won't stay up at night waiting for that apology.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue") would read what I wrote, you'd see that I didn't call you a troll. I am saying that some of the signs are there. The fact that you offer no real information on your profile to indicate that your a real person is one thing (the same thing that "red blade" and others in the past have been hung out to dry for). The fact that we know very little about your training background, or your links to FMA is another. And, the fact that you refuse to communicate with me on a personal level (even prior to this blow up) is a MAJOR thing also that indicates trollish behavior.

Yes, you have offered some good conversation and good information that doesn't point to "troolish" behavior as well, which is why I didn't call you a troll, I just asked.

So I don't know who or what you are Joe. I don't know if your a genuine guy or not. But, let me tell you one thing I have learned about the net after some hard Introspection...

Internet forum stuff is not "true" communication by itself. Anyone can make up a fake name, give out fake information, and speculate and argue from this false perspective. What do you have when you have a bunch of people in a room with fake profiles speculating with each other? You have FANTASY communication....in other words it ain't real. It's almost like a role-playing game, except people can get hurt in this game on different levels through the politicing. Add this with the fact that things like "tone" and "body language" and other nonverbal communication (the other 90% of communication, I might add) are taken completely out of the picture, and you have a recipe for disaster. It is far to easy to psychologically distance yourself from others in "fantasy" communication, which means that many hurtful things can be easily said and done over the internet.

So, what makes the communication "real." Real information so people know who you are is a good start; however, I understand that some people may have certian constraints (perhaps their job won't allow it) where they can't put up their real info in a public forum. Yet, this is a very rare situation, and most of the time you can put your real info up. Outside of profile, private communication also makes it real, and not just through PM's (although that can be helpful). I am talking about getting on the phone at the very least, and talking with the person your communicating with online. This way you can recognize that the person on the other end of the keyboard as a real person, not some fantasy character with a goofy handle.

Looking back, the times that I was unwilling to communicate privately (much like you in this case) only led to dragged out "fantasy" arguements online. The times I was willing to privately communicate, many of those times unessicary arguements have been were avoided.

In friendly conversation, it doesn't make a difference, but in arguements or debates, "fantasy" communication can be nothing but destructive.

So, I am asking you Joe, do you want to be destructive or constructive? You don't have to call me or anyone (or at least let me call you), but understand that this is you choosing destructive communication over something constructive. Excuses like "it would be a waste of my time" are cop outs, particularly when fantasy communication on a talk forum is a far bigger waste of time then a 5-10 minute phone conversation.

Do what you want, just recognize that it will be difficult for me (and others) to take fantasy communication seriously.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis

Get off your High Horse, bro....

 

[bart]

That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart...

I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.

I think this is happening here too. Maybe this thread should be closed and finished.

 

[Cruentus]

Before you go, what is it that you do? Who do you train with? What is your Martial background?....

Just to prevent any witch hunts here...

"Toasty" lives in Michigan, works in ROchester Hills (the next town over from me), but lives about 30 minutes east of me (I think). He trains with Manong Ted and was a student of Inasanto's system prior to that. He is not a modern arnis guy. I have seen him in various places, including a Dr. Gyi seminar in Ferndale.

I don't know Toasty too well, but he is indeed a real person, not affiliated with Datu Tim or Modern Arnis.

He can provide more info if he likes, but I just thought that you should know that.

PAUL

 

[loki09789]

First of all, if ya'll (you and some who have decided to "come to the rescue" ) would read what I wrote.....

I did and took it as a chance to clarify, through comparison to Red Blade that you started, the difference between what I did and did not think a 'troll' was.

I don't think Joe needs any rescuing.

 

[Cruentus]

Get off your High Horse, bro....

Well, as everyone can see, if I handle things in as mature of a manner as I am capable, then I am blamed for being on a "high horse." If I take another route and nitpick and argue, then I am blamed for being a "troublemaker" at the very least.

I guess when someone or certian people are against you, no matter what you say, you can't win with them.

Such is the nature of fantasy communication.

 

[loki09789]

Just to prevent any witch hunts here...

"Toasty" lives in Michigan, works in ROchester Hills (the next town over from me), but lives about 30 minutes east of me (I think). He trains with Manong Ted and was a student of Inasanto's system prior to that. He is not a modern arnis guy. I have seen him in various places, including a Dr. Gyi seminar in Ferndale.

I don't know Toasty too well, but he is indeed a real person, not affiliated with Datu Tim or Modern Arnis.

He can provide more info if he likes, but I just thought that you should know that.

PAUL

Who are you coming to the rescue of? If he wants to deal with it, let him. Not a witch hunt, unless you see a witch hunt....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gentlemen....

I've seen a number of complaints on this thread in the last few hours.

While there is no specific comment/post that stands out, the heat factor is rising.

I strongly suggest you muzzle some of the shots, snipes and such. I understand the frustrations, however before this breaks down into a full blown flame fest, I ask that you back away from the keyboard, and count to 10.

Also, please allow the mods to complete their investigation before speculating.

Thank you.

 

[Cruentus]

.....

I did and took it as a chance to clarify, through comparison to Red Blade that you started, the difference between what I did and did not think a 'troll' was.

I don't think Joe needs any rescuing.

Hey, no problem Paul M., and thanks for clarifying. The fact of the matter is that you, Tim K., and Rich C. did defend Joe. It is good to know that you are just expressing your genuine opinion, and that there isn't some other motive.

I think that I should also clarify that I am not about to defend "Red Blades" actions here. I disagree with the way he has behaved.

However, I think that this has turned into a witch hunt on Datu Tim, when all the facts aren't out yet. I am sure the admins. are reviewing the situation and exactly what happened here will come to light very soon, as Bob said when he unlocked the thread. That is why Bob asked that the conversation be limited to Balintawak, and not the issue at hand; at least not until the admins. find out what happened exactly. Yet, the witch-hunt continues. I think that to blame and make public inferences as to what is going on is not only speculative, but its not fair.

I think that the right thing to do here would be to refrain from judging the situation until all the facts are straight.

My humble opinion.

:asian: