Questions about Balintawak

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?

I think it was 1952 when Bacon formed the system.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it.

I think what Red Blade meant was should I call the system Bacon's or Saavadre's Modern Arnis.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it?

There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.

If Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.

If he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

artyon:

P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Metro Chicago.

This is about an 8 hour drive or a 1 hour flight. Anyone flying in for this event let me know and I'll make arrangements to pick you up at the airport. There are many things to do and see in our area including going to see Niagara Fall.

 

[Cruentus]

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

artyon:

P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

Count me in. Regardless of "politics," disagreements, or "past behaviors," I would be happy to meet a senior instructor in the arts!

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

There is nothing wrong with this. At the same token you're not claiming that you learned it directly from Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze.

If Atillo claims the Saavadres as part of his martial art family tree it would be okay.

If he is claiming that he learned Balintawak from them it would be another.

I have mentioned Atillo's name to Bobby Taboada before in recent phonecon's and he was nothing but respectful and positive about the man.

 

[loki09789]

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?

Joe E. already answered this back on page one of this thread along with a really comprehensive list of websites by Bk Escrima orgs, seems like you could find your own answers from that.

I enjoy discussions, but you mentioned confirming your info/intel. What is the info you have that you want to compare/contrast? It might be more effective than drawing it out like this.

 

[Red Blade]

Okay, let's take it from the top.


Question 1 was:
Why is the art called Balintawak?

Answer: Name of the street the club was on.


Question 2
Who was the Founder of Balintawak?

Answer: Venancio "Anciong" Bacon


Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 4
How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix?

Answer: No straight answer.


Question 5
When was Balintawak formed?

Answer: The early to mid 50's


Do we agree on this so far?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?
Answer: No straight answer.

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
:asian:

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.

(as explained to me...)

The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines. This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait. This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.

There's no argument that Ted Buot is a respected Master within Balintawak. Maybe he was indeed the only instructor allowed to teach for Anciong Bacon when he was in prison, but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines.

When Anciong Bacon was paroled, and Ted Buot was leaving for the US, others were already teaching their own version of Balintawak--more popular of these groups were Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez's groups (which trained together in the 70s). If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

But, this wasn't the case... Ted Buot was already in the US by the late 1970s. Anciong Bacon was still checking Villasin and Velez's students (as well as others), making sure Balintawak was passed down correctly.

Anciong Bacon died of poverty in the late 1970s. He died a poor man. In the 1970s, before the popularizing of Eskrima and other FMAs, Anciong Bacon was just another eskrimador in the Philippines. He was passionate about his art, he taught those who were interested, those who mastered his art taught others who were interested, and so on and so forth. It was as simple as that in the past.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.

 

[bart]

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...
The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance
P.S. I cleared this with GM Buot before I announced this event!

I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at marketing disguised as an attempt at honest exploration. Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves. Regardless of what juniors like us may think about what he says and what he does, it's not for us to "put him in his place." We are not his peers and he is to be treated as an elder. He comes from an old eskrimador family and has a lot to offer regardless of stories here and there.

Joe is right about successorship in the FMA. When GM Bacon got out of jail, the other Balintawak guys recognized him still as the head of their system, but they had already been teaching for a long time and had begun to add their own things to the system. Like it or not, there are many different types of Balintawak, and it would behoove people in the States, just to accept it. Trashing Atillo to his face will close doors for all of us back in the Philippines. Nobody gave permission to GM Bacon to break away from Doce Pares. He didn't need it. Those guys who founded their own systems of Balintawak followed in Bacon's footsteps by doing their own thing. They didn't need to get permission and they kept the name Balintawak not just out of respect for GM Bacon, but because it became something that they made their own. People like Vicente Atillo, Villasin, Velez, etc. are our seniors in the FMA and not our peers. I doesn't matter if we disagree or not with Atillo, he is Vicente Atillo's son and deserves respect simply because of who he is and where he is at in life agewise. Add to that, he fought Cacoy in his prime and others and even though Atillo lost a couple big ones, when "put up or shut up" time came, he "put up." How many of us can say that?

 

[bart]

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

Red Blade, what exactly are your intel sources and what is your background in these arts(FMA/JKD)?

 

[arnisador]

Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves.

This has always been the case at Mr. Hartman's school.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

I just can't help but feel that this thread was a veiled attempt at marketing disguised as an attempt at honest exploration.

I agree with bart on this one... I feel kinda dumb not getting it in time. Great job, you guys!!! Gives a new meaning to the term McDojo Advertising. Red Blade says "where can I see Atillo perform?"... Renegade, "well it just so happens that I, DATU Tim Hartman, am having GM Atillo over at my school for 125 bucks!!!".

or maybe, I just feel sore for being caught up in this advertising ploy without any knowledge. I feel I deserve atleast some sort of commision for providing all that info (I along with others), to make this advertisement work out. Or atleast an apology...

 

[Red Blade]

I’ve taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility. I’ve seen it on the net and in the magazines for a while. I’m seeing more and more people getting involved and I thought I might try it also.

What I seen over the last couple years is bickering over the facts on GM Atillo’s site, the dog brothers’ site and on e-digest. I’ve been a member of MT since 2001 and I’ve seen many debates. Over all I feel that most threads are handled in a mature manner. I thought that I could get as many facts as I could before I start training.

I have collected information on GM Buot & GM Taboada, but I have very little verified intel on Atillo. If I going to make an educated decision on who to train with I need to get all the facts that I can.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

I’ve taken an interest in Balintawak because of its increased visibility.

Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate. it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview. good luck on the seminar anyhow.)

 

[Cruentus]

Lets do this by the numbers...

#1 First, go to this site: www.wmarnis.com; read Datu Hartman's (aka "renegade's") profile. Then, read the list of events.

O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.

#2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."

As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.

#3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.

I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well.

#4 On "successorship," people can do whatever they want. The FACT is that Manong Ted Buot was the only person deligated to teach in the school in Cebu outside of Anciong. This is a fact. No one is claiming that other people can't teach their version of the art, we'd just like it everyone kept their facts straight.

#5 Conclusion:

So, lets start using our brains, here, fella's, before we start blaming people for being disrespectful, or being "MCdojo advertisor's," or any other sillyness. Your reproach doesn't match logically with the facts.

Thank you.

PAUL

 

[Rich Parsons]

(as explained to me...)

The word successor doesn't really apply in the Philippines. This is more a Chinese/Korean/Japanese cultural trait. This is why no one can trace any FMA system or style prior to the 1900s or late 1890s.

There's no argument that Ted Buot is a respected Master within Balintawak. Maybe he was indeed the only instructor allowed to teach for Anciong Bacon when he was in prison, but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines.

When Anciong Bacon was paroled, and Ted Buot was leaving for the US, others were already teaching their own version of Balintawak--more popular of these groups were Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez's groups (which trained together in the 70s). If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

But, this wasn't the case... Ted Buot was already in the US by the late 1970s. Anciong Bacon was still checking Villasin and Velez's students (as well as others), making sure Balintawak was passed down correctly.

Anciong Bacon died of poverty in the late 1970s. He died a poor man. In the 1970s, before the popularizing of Eskrima and other FMAs, Anciong Bacon was just another eskrimador in the Philippines. He was passionate about his art, he taught those who were interested, those who mastered his art taught others who were interested, and so on and so forth. It was as simple as that in the past.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.

Joe,

I also understand that others were teaching their modified or grouped versions at that time. Or their take on things. Yet, Did GM Anciong BAcon give them permission to do so? I beleive they were already established teachers, wiht a good reputaton and coulddefend themselves, so the answer could be they might not have needed his permission. Yet again, did he have them come in and teach at his club like he had Manong Ted Buot do? NO disrespect to any of those old masters and GM's. If you are argueing semantics it is best to make sure we get a valid definition.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Maybe my BS meter isn't working very well this weekend, but why does it seem like, from the very start of this thread, you and "RENEGADE" were working in tandem all along? (actually, it doesn't really matter...it would've been more professional had you guys just said "we're having GM Atillo over for a seminar, please come, here's the info", instead of mentioning innuendos, trying to incite a debate. it's sunday... gotta get back to the woodward interview. good luck on the seminar anyhow.)

Joe-

I have never used tactics like this in the past and I'm not going to start now! You are new to MT, so you don't know my posting history. Take a look of my posting history and you'll see that when I announce a seminar I just come out and announce it. If either Bart or yourself would like to discuss this my cell is 716-432-0600.
:asian: