Question for old-schoolers

[BrandonLucas]

Ok, so, this is a question that goes out to anyone that has been training since, we'll say, the mid-eighties...

What are some of the differences that you see in the training in TKD, or any art, if you were to compare it from the 80's to the training now?

The training can be testing material, the tests for blackbelts (as mentioned in a previous thread), etc....

And I realize that it's probably going to be a case-by-case kind of thing, since no 2 instructors teach the same, but I just remember the blackbelts of that time being more hard-edged than they are now...so I was just wanting to get some feedback from those of you who got the chance to experience the training in that time that I wish I could have been a part of.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that in the eighties, taekwondo was more self defense oriented and the sparring approximated a fight scenario much more so than it does now. Taekwondo hadn't entered the olympics until 1988, so the term 'olympic style sparring' that I see now didn't even exist until that point.

Also, the instructors had all come up in the sixties and seventies when the art was much more fight/SD oriented. That isn't to say that sport didn't exist; tournament fighting was certainly a part of taekwondo for some time by the eighties. With the advent of Olympic taekwondo, however, came the sport focused schools. Also, many schools during the eighties made fitness promotion a part of their marketing. This dovetailed well with the Olympic sport and teaching of kids.

Instructors who began as white belts in the late eighties to mid nineties who were trained to be competative in olympic style received less hard core training. If they started off as kids, they received zero hard core training. These are the instructors who trained the instructors of the current century. They had far less hard core/SD to pass on to their students, and when those students began instructing, they had even less.

Add to that that in the eighties, there was a bit of an MA craze and a lot of schools jumped on the bandwagon, figured out that there was money to be made, and adjusted their curriculums accordingly. The negative effect of this wasn't felt on a wide scale until the early ninties, when students of these highly commercialized/lower content schools became instructors and opened up their own schools.

Fast forward to the current state of taekwondo. There are a few (probably very few) very good sport focused schools and an equally few very good SD focused schools, and a whole ton of commercial schools that teach a commercial, MA for fun and fitness curriculum that has very little in the way of real teeth.

Ironically, these low content/high commercial schools are also often more expensive. Perhaps the economic woes that our nation is experiencing will weed out some of these places and leave the Taekwondo world with a leaner, meaner, and better quality selection of schools.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

One of the biggest problem I have with the before and after is simply the perception of not street worthy, TKD was a battlefield Art used for combat so SD would have been a big part of it and so would have the ground fighting that so many people just forgot about.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I agree with what you are both saying on this....

I personally don't have a problem with the sport side of the art at all...like Terry was saying, it's about the perception. People automatically assume that if you train in TKD, it's all about the sport style, Olympic style, etc...all the time. Even those schools that train for the sport styles don't train those specifically, from what I can tell.

There is still an element of SD in even the sport side, but the problem that I've noticed is an influx of "sportsters" that care only about winning tournements, and don't have that "hardcore" element that Daniel was talking about.

I started training in ITF TKD in '93...I didn't notice a huge jump in all the "sport" or "tournement" style until a few years ago...probably around '01 or so. Now, I'm not sure if I'm just behind the times and all this has been booming for years, but it hasn't been until around that time that I started hearing people make fun of TKD for being a sport and not an art.

I guess what I want to do is to get down to the bottom of the issue so that the art will retain it's honor.

 

[zeeberex]

I think that in the eighties, taekwondo was more self defense oriented and the sparring approximated a fight scenario much more so than it does now. Taekwondo hadn't entered the olympics until 1988, so the term 'olympic style sparring' that I see now didn't even exist until that point.

Also, the instructors had all come up in the sixties and seventies when the art was much more fight/SD oriented. That isn't to say that sport didn't exist; tournament fighting was certainly a part of taekwondo for some time by the eighties. With the advent of Olympic taekwondo, however, came the sport focused schools. Also, many schools during the eighties made fitness promotion a part of their marketing. This dovetailed well with the Olympic sport and teaching of kids.

Instructors who began as white belts in the late eighties to mid nineties who were trained to be competative in olympic style received less hard core training. If they started off as kids, they received zero hard core training. These are the instructors who trained the instructors of the current century. They had far less hard core/SD to pass on to their students, and when those students began instructing, they had even less.

Add to that that in the eighties, there was a bit of an MA craze and a lot of schools jumped on the bandwagon, figured out that there was money to be made, and adjusted their curriculums accordingly. The negative effect of this wasn't felt on a wide scale until the early ninties, when students of these highly commercialized/lower content schools became instructors and opened up their own schools.

Fast forward to the current state of taekwondo. There are a few (probably very few) very good sport focused schools and an equally few very good SD focused schools, and a whole ton of commercial schools that teach a commercial, MA for fun and fitness curriculum that has very little in the way of real teeth.

Ironically, these low content/high commercial schools are also often more expensive. Perhaps the economic woes that our nation is experiencing will weed out some of these places and leave the Taekwondo world with a leaner, meaner, and better quality selection of schools.

Daniel

You paint an interesting picture of what happens when an art gets watered down by over emphasis of sport of SD.

 

[hkfuie]

would have the ground fighting that so many people just forgot about.

My instructor is very old school, but I never learned much groundwork. I am assuming that's grappling type stuff. I would be really interested in seeing some TKD groundwork.

An ITF GM I trained under in San Diego was a Korean marine during the Korean war. He never worked with us on grappling, though I believe he also had a BB in Judo. Too bad. If only I had known to ask...

I am learning some judo now. Love it. But, since TKD is my native language, I would be really interested to see Korean grappling. If that midwest meetup happens in the summer, I will be sure to ask you about it, Terry.

 

[Manny]

I think that in the eighties, taekwondo was more self defense oriented and the sparring approximated a fight scenario much more so than it does now. Taekwondo hadn't entered the olympics until 1988, so the term 'olympic style sparring' that I see now didn't even exist until that point.

Also, the instructors had all come up in the sixties and seventies when the art was much more fight/SD oriented. That isn't to say that sport didn't exist; tournament fighting was certainly a part of taekwondo for some time by the eighties. With the advent of Olympic taekwondo, however, came the sport focused schools. Also, many schools during the eighties made fitness promotion a part of their marketing. This dovetailed well with the Olympic sport and teaching of kids.

Instructors who began as white belts in the late eighties to mid nineties who were trained to be competative in olympic style received less hard core training. If they started off as kids, they received zero hard core training. These are the instructors who trained the instructors of the current century. They had far less hard core/SD to pass on to their students, and when those students began instructing, they had even less.

Add to that that in the eighties, there was a bit of an MA craze and a lot of schools jumped on the bandwagon, figured out that there was money to be made, and adjusted their curriculums accordingly. The negative effect of this wasn't felt on a wide scale until the early ninties, when students of these highly commercialized/lower content schools became instructors and opened up their own schools.

Fast forward to the current state of taekwondo. There are a few (probably very few) very good sport focused schools and an equally few very good SD focused schools, and a whole ton of commercial schools that teach a commercial, MA for fun and fitness curriculum that has very little in the way of real teeth.

Ironically, these low content/high commercial schools are also often more expensive. Perhaps the economic woes that our nation is experiencing will weed out some of these places and leave the Taekwondo world with a leaner, meaner, and better quality selection of schools.

Daniel

Amen Daniel, you just put it the way I feel it.

Manny

 

[Dana]

terryl965 wrote:

"One of the biggest problem I have with the before and after is simply the perception of not street worthy, TKD was a battlefield Art used for combat so SD would have been a big part of it and so would have the ground fighting that so many people just forgot about."

Hi.

I would be curious as to your historical context for the statement that "TKD was a battlefield art...." The name TKD did not come about until the 1950s and the major Kwan founders in the 1940s had backgrounds in Shotokan; an art people often accuse Funakoshi Sensei as making less harsh for public consumption. While many of the early Korean martial arts practitioners may have been in the military or had military service, in the days of guns and knives, it was probably not ever a battlefield art, but merely a good supplement to training. I've talked with folks who trained in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s and while training may have been a lot harsher in the early days than it is today, I do not believe it was ever a battlefield art per say. This is not to say TKD is not effective self-defense taught and practiced correctly.

Dana

 

[terryl965]

terryl965 wrote:

"One of the biggest problem I have with the before and after is simply the perception of not street worthy, TKD was a battlefield Art used for combat so SD would have been a big part of it and so would have the ground fighting that so many people just forgot about."

Hi.

I would be curious as to your historical context for the statement that "TKD was a battlefield art...." The name TKD did not come about until the 1950s and the major Kwan founders in the 1940s had backgrounds in Shotokan; an art people often accuse Funakoshi Sensei as making less harsh for public consumption. While many of the early Korean martial arts practitioners may have been in the military or had military service, in the days of guns and knives, it was probably not ever a battlefield art, but merely a good supplement to training. I've talked with folks who trained in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s and while training may have been a lot harsher in the early days than it is today, I do not believe it was ever a battlefield art per say. This is not to say TKD is not effective self-defense taught and practiced correctly.

Dana

When I refer to TKD it is as the name of today, so to be politically correct lets call it Taekyon or Shotokan or any of the old Kwans like Mudokwan, oh do kwan, but it has all been under the umbella since it became TKD. So lets say Shotokan or Korean Karate, that was tough as a batterfield Art. Today it is referred to as TKD. Sorry for not making it clearer for the masses, but most people here already know what was meant in the statement.:asian:

 

[terryl965]

My instructor is very old school, but I never learned much groundwork. I am assuming that's grappling type stuff. I would be really interested in seeing some TKD groundwork.

An ITF GM I trained under in San Diego was a Korean marine during the Korean war. He never worked with us on grappling, though I believe he also had a BB in Judo. Too bad. If only I had known to ask...

I am learning some judo now. Love it. But, since TKD is my native language, I would be really interested to see Korean grappling. If that midwest meetup happens in the summer, I will be sure to ask you about it, Terry.

I am not talking about Grappling wresting or even BJJ but actual ground fighting you know when you are taking down by your enemy to be killed and you have get out of that type of stituation. remember alot of fights in war back then went to the ground with knives so you must have been trained in some kind of ground fighting.

 

[DMcHenry]

I started back in the mid '70's. Some of the sparring pads were just starting to be used, none were used in my dojang. The TSD I do today is pretty much identical to the TKD I did back then - I don't see much difference. Now when I go watch a TKD school, it all just seem so much more commercial - wearing all the pads for safety but most of the time not allowing any contact at all. Trying to make it all fun for the kids, less focus on good/proper technique.

 

[Dana]

When I refer to TKD it is as the name of today, so to be politically correct lets call it Taekyon or Shotokan or any of the old Kwans like Mudokwan, oh do kwan, but it has all been under the umbella since it became TKD. So let’s say Shotokan or Korean Karate, that was tough as a battlefield Art. Today it is referred to as TKD. Sorry for not making it clearer for the masses, but most people here already know what was meant in the statement.

Well, I don't consider myself the "masses," but Tae Kwon Do, Taekwondo, Tae Kwon-Do still has many faces today besides the Kukki-TKD image of sport martial arts. There are still folks doing Tang Soo Do (a pre-curser to TKD), the Oh Do Kwan is still alive in the Chang Hon school, and Shotokan is still around. Korean Karate still had an evolved influence from mid-twentieth century Shotokan via Japan. By then, training and sparring may have been more brutal (still in a sparring ring context), but I doubt it was training for the battlefield. While there may have more ground-type fighting and weapons self-defense incorporated during War-time/military training, even this was pretty rare to see by the late 1960s and early 1970's. Even Gen Choi who was with the ROK army depicts very little ground defense or defense against weapons even in his 1970s book "Taekwon-Do: The Art of Self-Defense."

I think training has gotten a little safer since those days as our knowledge of human physiology and sports medicine has gotten more advanced. Some clubs focused on adults still play pretty hard, but they may not be commercial successes for obvious reasons.

Mac talks about the introduction of Jhoon Rhee's safety equipment in the mid 1970s (remember the awful baby blue colors Mac?), equipment does not by itself dumb down the training, and it just lets some folks try new things, make mistakes and still be able to go to work the next day.

2 cents!

Dana

 

[DMcHenry]

Yea, I think I remember yellow and white too. We had to use a lot of control, but people did get fingers and toes broken all the time. Without Safe-T equipment, black eyes were pretty common. Accidents do happen, but you had to have very good technique and control to spar without equipment. You certainly didn't spar with your hands down.

 

[seasoned]

I can only give you an idea of my training, and black belt test, and you make the comparison. Early to mid 60”s, no gear, no mats, hard floor. Black belt level and above, body contact with light face contact. If at that level you could not block, you were in big trouble. Once a sparring match started you did not stop until it was called finished, by Sensei. Right or wrong made no difference, it was all we knew, and it was, take it, or leave it. We were the only DoJo in upstate NY, in my area, with a few north of us. Classes were small by today’s standards, and geared toward fighters, not retention. Part of my test was to start sparring with the low ranks, with push ups between each match. As we got tired and could not hold our hands up from push ups, we were vulnerable, and at the mercy of the higher ranks. The last match was with Sensei, with no mercy there either. Black belts and above went through this, and would not allow any slackers into their ranks. I saw many people go to brown belt, only to stay there until they quit. Anyone from the 60’s era would know the DoJo I speck of, and many of us are still around. Some have passed, some have DoJo’s of their own, some are hidden away, trying to duplicate those days gone passed. It was the best of times and the worst of times. Today’s Martial artists are very talented and athletic, with a multitude of techniques. What makes the difference is survival, not what you know, but what you can take. I have seen it over many years, the difference is in the will, which is born out of a certain training, that forges the mind. Your training must take you close to where you will be taken, based on what you are training for.

 

[terryl965]

I can only give you an idea of my training, and black belt test, and you make the comparison. Early to mid 60”s, no gear, no mats, hard floor. Black belt level and above, body contact with light face contact. If at that level you could not block, you were in big trouble. Once a sparring match started you did not stop until it was called finished, by Sensei. Right or wrong made no difference, it was all we knew, and it was, take it, or leave it. We were the only DoJo in upstate NY, in my area, with a few north of us. Classes were small by today’s standards, and geared toward fighters, not retention. Part of my test was to start sparring with the low ranks, with push ups between each match. As we got tired and could not hold our hands up from push ups, we were vulnerable, and at the mercy of the higher ranks. The last match was with Sensei, with no mercy there either. Black belts and above went through this, and would not allow any slackers into their ranks. I saw many people go to brown belt, only to stay there until they quit. Anyone from the 60’s era would know the DoJo I speck of, and many of us are still around. Some have passed, some have DoJo’s of their own, some are hidden away, trying to duplicate those days gone passed. It was the best of times and the worst of times. Today’s Martial artists are very talented and athletic, with a multitude of techniques. What makes the difference is survival, not what you know, but what you can take. I have seen it over many years, the difference is in the will, which is born out of a certain training, that forges the mind. Your training must take you close to where you will be taken, based on what you are training for.

Amen Seasoned

 

[BrandonLucas]

I can only give you an idea of my training, and black belt test, and you make the comparison. Early to mid 60”s, no gear, no mats, hard floor. Black belt level and above, body contact with light face contact. If at that level you could not block, you were in big trouble. Once a sparring match started you did not stop until it was called finished, by Sensei. Right or wrong made no difference, it was all we knew, and it was, take it, or leave it. We were the only DoJo in upstate NY, in my area, with a few north of us. Classes were small by today’s standards, and geared toward fighters, not retention. Part of my test was to start sparring with the low ranks, with push ups between each match. As we got tired and could not hold our hands up from push ups, we were vulnerable, and at the mercy of the higher ranks. The last match was with Sensei, with no mercy there either. Black belts and above went through this, and would not allow any slackers into their ranks. I saw many people go to brown belt, only to stay there until they quit. Anyone from the 60’s era would know the DoJo I speck of, and many of us are still around. Some have passed, some have DoJo’s of their own, some are hidden away, trying to duplicate those days gone passed. It was the best of times and the worst of times. Today’s Martial artists are very talented and athletic, with a multitude of techniques. What makes the difference is survival, not what you know, but what you can take. I have seen it over many years, the difference is in the will, which is born out of a certain training, that forges the mind. Your training must take you close to where you will be taken, based on what you are training for.

This was what I was looking for. I know in my instructor's dojang, we don't train anywhere near that hardcore.

We use pads when we spar, and we have mostly full contact, but I would say it's at 75% power.

My blackbelt test was not exactly as you described it, but I think the punishment aspect was there when I tested.

I really, truly wish dojos and dojangs could go back to that mentality, where you were expected to sweat and bleed.

 

[terryl965]

There are places like that, mine is one of them. You will always leave with a bruise and you will be tired. That is why I go though so many people, my real people have been with me anywhere from 2-12 years everybody else stay about 3-6 months and say it is just to hard. I believe Martial Arts is about being hardcore. Every single person should know this before walking though the doors.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I no longer train TKD and I haven’t for years but when I started it was the late 70s. The difference I have observed in the TKD schools I have visited since is I see much more emphasis (to much) on points sparing and absolutely no work on in close fighting, non-points sparing, locks and takedowns

 

[IcemanSK]

I began training in 1982. My instructor was from Korea & grew up near Osan Air Force base. We went to maybe 3 tournaments a year, so it wasn't a priority. The adult class was 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours long & always diificult. The focus was on technique, power & speed. Repetition of techniques past boredom to the point where you were just sore.....but you still wanted to do the technique well. Sparring gear was Macho pads, a cup & mouthpiece. ...and we sparred nearly every class. We did forms nearly every class. And we did basic techniques & stretching for an hour every class.

It was hard work. The folks in class were our family. Our master was like our father in some ways. The only reason I did even remotely well in high school was because I had to show him my report card. If it wasn't good enough for him, he wouldn't teach me until I got my grades up.

Excessive contact was usually defined as "drawing blood." Chest protectors were bamboo & never used. We learned control so as to not deliberately hurt our opponent. Head gear came out in 1986 & we didn't like it.

It's a struggle to constantly hold a standard for students & parents today. Every few weeks a student tells me of a friend in school who is now a black belt, or goes to a school that doesn't even do forms. Sometimes I wish we didn't have a physical thing as a belt that denotes rank. But I really do think that people value the things in life that they've worked for. That's why I still keep a high standard. That's why after 3 years of running a school, my highest ranked student is 6th gup.

 

[hkfuie]

I am not talking about Grappling wresting or even BJJ but actual ground fighting you know when you are taking down by your enemy to be killed and you have get out of that type of stituation. remember alot of fights in war back then went to the ground with knives so you must have been trained in some kind of ground fighting.

Oh, I understand. "Finishing them off."