Hellpppp???

[granfire]

I am sure we can come up with something similar to this for instructors, since they are not all created equal either.

There are those students who wish to be presented with knowledge and ability on a silver platter, true enough.

Unfortunately there are also instructors who dwell on the titel and are busy counting the money rather than actually instructing, others have favorites, or definite dislikes.

While the original description of the situation was hardly objective, I don't see anything in there that would justify any comeback in the way you provided.

The deal is, she is paying an instructor for lessons and does not seem to get what she is paying for. Kinda like taking your car to Jiffy Lube, paying, then crawling under the vehicle and doing the oil change yourself, does not make any sense. And while not so much in the MA world, I have been told many stories of so called instructors and trainers who's antics were anything but not professional. beats the heck out of me why somebody would do it, but we are all human.

In my organization it is an honor for an instructor to have many Black belts who can carry the lineage. The progress is outlined, little room for personal preferences, but maybe that's the reason we have many successful women Martial Artists.

 

[Tryak]

Well it sounds like it wasn't working out for you anyway there so focusing on moving on I will tell you what is expected of our black belts (ITF style but TAGB affiliation) as a comparison.

For 1st Dan:
Break 2 boards with palm heel or reverse punch
Break 2 boards with foot technique
Break 1 brick with palm heel

Sparring -> 1 step, shuffling, sliding, free sparring (all 1 opponent)
Sparring 2 opponents

Self defense coreographed routine with oral explanation of techniques

Written essay on the meaning of TKD and its impact on your life.
List of 50 good deeds performed
Run 5km prior to testing that day (suggested time of 25 minutes)

All patterns from white to black belt

Oral knowledge: pattern interpretations, tenets, meaning of the belts, understand what a t line is etc.

 

[ATC]

I am sure we can come up with something similar to this for instructors, since they are not all created equal either.

There are those students who wish to be presented with knowledge and ability on a silver platter, true enough.

Unfortunately there are also instructors who dwell on the titel and are busy counting the money rather than actually instructing, others have favorites, or definite dislikes.

While the original description of the situation was hardly objective, I don't see anything in there that would justify any comeback in the way you provided.

The deal is, she is paying an instructor for lessons and does not seem to get what she is paying for. Kinda like taking your car to Jiffy Lube, paying, then crawling under the vehicle and doing the oil change yourself, does not make any sense. And while not so much in the MA world, I have been told many stories of so called instructors and trainers who's antics were anything but not professional. beats the heck out of me why somebody would do it, but we are all human.

In my organization it is an honor for an instructor to have many Black belts who can carry the lineage. The progress is outlined, little room for personal preferences, but maybe that's the reason we have many successful women Martial Artists.

Most of what you state is true and cannot be debated. However you still seem to be taking this person at their word, even though they made many self admitted confessions of her lack of dedication. With her dad being a black belt from the same school why does she not know what she needs to know?

Both of my kids are black belts and I can tell you for sure that they did not wait for the head instructor to make sure that they knew what was needed for any belt they received. At every rank they earned they made sure to practice at home and took it upon themselves to make sure they knew what was needed for each promotion. They did this by asking for help when needed and staying after classes to get that extra help or from me at home when my time permitted.

No instructor can give 100% attention to 100% of his students. That is why there are assistant instructors and Sr. belts.

In anything in life if you do not succeed then you only have yourself to blame. The knowledge is all around her, even in her own house yet she took it upon herself to only do what was taught in class.

Everyday there are white belts in class and basic must be taught and special attention given to the lower belts. Now there are Sr. belt classes as well that definitely would not be catering to white belts so I can only infer by her statement that she is not in those classes (if there are any) but still this is not an excuse.

She has not stated what she did other than wait for her instructor. By her own admission her dad and friend both went to the instructor and told him that they were willing to do what it took to get the black belt. From that point on something happened for them to get their belts. What that something was, we don't know but maybe by going and asking they got some help that was wanted and needed.

She needs to do more. Leaving did not work as she decided to stay or come back to the same school. Why? Who knows but the knowledge is all around her so she has no excuse as to why she does not have it, regardless of the instructor.

 

[Claire]

Congratulations on making the bold decision to leave the club you've been at for so long to change to another one! That decisions not easy. I know, I had the same decision myself in January. Your story is very much like mine and while reading it I could completely understand how you've been feeling. Last year in particular was very bad for me, to have that passion for TKD and not be training as you would like is extremely frustrating!

My training hall was practicaly on my doorstep and I had many friends there but at the end of the day it's your training that's the important thing. I now travel to another hall and to be honest I am now so grateful for what I went through at my other club, without it I wouldn't have discovered this one which I am now very happy at. The 2 instructors are amazing compared to my old one. Their abilities in TKD as well as their teaching abilities are like night and day from my old club. You know, the first few weeks were hard, fitting into an established group of people and getting used to all the minor differences but it really didn't take long. I have now made new friends and I am performing moves I'd never thought I could! Also, they respect me as a woman and treat me no differently from the men at the club which is great too.

Well done! I hope you've found the answer to your problem and can now advance onwards and upwards!!!

 

[Claire]

Okay, so I was so eager to reply to your post that I hadn't noticed the second page where you say you've gone back to you club! Hope it all works out for you x

 

[granfire]

Most of what you state is true and cannot be debated. However you still seem to be taking this person at their word, even though they made many self admitted confessions of her lack of dedication. With her dad being a black belt from the same school why does she not know what she needs to know?

Both of my kids are black belts and I can tell you for sure that they did not wait for the head instructor to make sure that they knew what was needed for any belt they received. At every rank they earned they made sure to practice at home and took it upon themselves to make sure they knew what was needed for each promotion. They did this by asking for help when needed and staying after classes to get that extra help or from me at home when my time permitted.

No instructor can give 100% attention to 100% of his students. That is why there are assistant instructors and Sr. belts.

In anything in life if you do not succeed then you only have yourself to blame. The knowledge is all around her, even in her own house yet she took it upon herself to only do what was taught in class.

Everyday there are white belts in class and basic must be taught and special attention given to the lower belts. Now there are Sr. belt classes as well that definitely would not be catering to white belts so I can only infer by her statement that she is not in those classes (if there are any) but still this is not an excuse.

She has not stated what she did other than wait for her instructor. By her own admission her dad and friend both went to the instructor and told him that they were willing to do what it took to get the black belt. From that point on something happened for them to get their belts. What that something was, we don't know but maybe by going and asking they got some help that was wanted and needed.

She needs to do more. Leaving did not work as she decided to stay or come back to the same school. Why? Who knows but the knowledge is all around her so she has no excuse as to why she does not have it, regardless of the instructor.

You are right, I only took her word for it. For all I know she could be a 50 year old fat and bald guy who never left the recliner in his whole life.

But her story is all we have to go by.

So that is what I made my point about.

You read between the lines, a helpful skill many times, but it leads to assumptions.

While you are right, practicing at home and making sure everything is checked off on the requirements is the students part of the progress, teaching is still the instructor's responsibility, not the dad's or the friends.

I read between the lines that the instructor had his knickers in a twist because the OP chose school over Black belt and that he is having fun pushing buttons. Getting people frustrated to the point of quitting and then basically gloating that they weren't BB material. yieks. Thankfully I have not run into many gender prejudicial jerks, but from where I am now, I have to say life is way to short to be tilting windmills. And given current economic issues that will hit the martial Arts business hard, if it didn't already impact it, a little bit more customer service is called for.

And as for assumptions....the OP might not have time and room to practice and learn at home. Or that her father lives in the same household, by no means a sure thing these days anymore.

Either way you turn it, the instructor does not look good.

 

[searcher]

Sounds like you are in the same boat as a great many of us. I had a falling out with one of my instructors after teahcing for him for 10 years. I left and was the better for it as you will be. If he is a pig, then you don't want to be there anyway. GL in your new school.

 

[BrandonLucas]

My take on the situation with the information given...

I think that both the instructor and the OP are at fault with what is happening...and I tend to think that the fault is about equal on both accounts.

It sounds like the instructor has a problem instructing women, and an even bigger problem instructing in general. A good instructor is not condescending toward anyone, and should not refer to female students as "the women". A good instructor should be approachable at any time, both on and off the matt, for any reason. They should be able to talk to any student about their progress as a student, and what is needed to progress.

On the other side of the coin, a good student should be able to see and understand that rank is nothing more than a place holder. It should indicate what portion of the cirriculum is being learned...it is not a measure of how good you are or are not. By default, a black belt student should be good at what is being taught, simply because a black belt signifies that the student has successfully learned the beginning and intermediate material in the cirriculum...to the instructor's satisifaction.

Think of it this way: if you graduate highschool with honors, and you are the valedictorian, does that make you a rocket scientist? Not necessarily. It signifies that you are placed above the rest of your peers, and are prepared to begin learning the advanced material. How you apply that material is up to you, as a student.

FWIW, I've been working on a form that is new to me, and I've only been over it five times in class over the last 3 months, and I attend class 2 to 3 times a week. But that doesn't mean that I have not learned the form, and that I cannot perform it when my instructor asks me to. I am expected to take the time on my own to further the education that I want to further. Otherwise, I have to be content in going over the form once or twice a month, and probably taking an entire year just to be comfortable performing it. It's easy to research the information that I need now, especially with the internet being so accessable...but even before, there are books that you could purchase, as well as asking senior students for assistance on the side.

The issue that bothers me the most is whether the OP is able to actually speak to the instructor in a normal conversation about training for the requirements for testing. While rank shouldn't be the most important thing, it can and does get rather stale to go over the same material day after day, month after month, and year after year.

As far as the Jiffy Lube analagy goes...I can see the point, but that's not what is happening here, I don't think. It does not appear that the OP is paying for instruction and simply not receiving it. It appears that the OP is paying for instruction, and is receiving instruction, but not receiving the instruction that she thinks that she should be getting. If the instructor wants her to drill basics for the next 5 years, then that's what she should accept from the instructor...otherwise, do like she already did and change instructors. By the same token, if the OP is going to drill basics for the next 5 years, then the instructor needs to make that known, and let the OP know what his/her expectations are.

Don't get discouraged, though. Just train hard, and instead of having a goal of earning a blackbelt, have a goal of being the best that you can possibly be, with no flaws in your basics at all. Maybe that's what your instructor has been trying to get out of you all along....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Its just that everyone else is below me, they recieve the attention I never move forward!

I have returned, by the way, and I have decided not to let one man stand in the way of my aspirations!

This could be good, but keep in mind that you'll need to talk to your instructor and address the things that prompted you to want to leave in the first place. Perhaps you already have.

Either way, best wishes!

Daniel

 

[Kacey]

Not sure why everyone is so quick to put down a man and his teachings after only listening to one persons perspective. All that can be said is that you need to do what you think is best for you. Your statements are only here say and nothing more. We do not know this school or instructor and only have your words to go on. I would think that every school has at least one student that is not satisfied, no matter how many think things are great.

We shouldn't be so quick to take one person words as truth without even knowing anything other than those words.

I understand your concern that we take everything typed in at face value... but I fail to understand your assumption that the OP is deliberately misstating the case. Realistically, could we speak to the instructor, I suspect that truth lies somewhere in the middle. Since we cannot, we have only the OP's words and our own experiences to go on. Having had negative experiences as a female martial artist (not with my own instructor, but with other instructors) that sound rather similar, I am inclined to believe that there is at least some truth in this situation.

The one thing that I do know is that you are indeed not ready. You yourself state that you only know the first 10 moves of Chun Moo and only the first 10 stick attacks, and other self admissions.

If you are as dedicated as you state then you would have found away to learn the rest of what is needed. Did you ever ask any other black belts in your class for help or assistance in progressing past what was shown to you?

Certainly, students should practice outside of class, both with and without other students' help - but that also assumes that other students are available and willing to help this student. In many cases this is so - but if the attitude the OP describes is even close to what she says, it may be that senior students emulate the attitude of their instructor. As you say, we only have one side... I but present this as a possibility.

Your Dad is a black belt and could have shown you and help you practice at home what you needed to know.

This is an interesting statement. One of the instructors I know teaches his instructor's son - who is expected to get his primary instruction from his own instructor, not his father. His father will practice with him, provide feedback on his technique, have him in class, etc. - but the father is very clear that he is not his son's instructor, and that his son's primary instruction should come from his own instructor. On that basis, the father will not work with his son on anything that his son's instructor has not already taught him. And as others have said... why pay an instructor if your primary instruction is occurring at home, from a parent?

To complain that you do not know what is needed and then complain that you want your black belt seems wrong to me. How much do you practice outside of the dojang?

I have many students that only practice in the dojang during class time. The few that do practice at home and come and ask for help never complain. It is alway the ones that expect to be Bruce Lee or Chloe Bruce but put in no effort other than what they do in dojang.

You need to stop complaining and start practicing. If your instructor only shows you 10 moves then learn those 10 and then show him that you know it and then ask for the rest.

This assumes that:
a) the OP is not practicing at home - something that has not been discussed in this thread. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't... and while I use that teaching method myself - not teaching new material until previous material is mastered - other instructors may not.

b) that it is acceptable, in this dojang, for students to ask to be taught new material. I teach my students new material when they demonstrate competence in what they've already been taught... sometimes I'll show them something when they ask, and sometimes I will determine they're not ready, either because they are not competent at things that need to be mastered first, and sometimes because what the student wants to learn hasn't yet been reached in the sequence I teach. But students who try consistently in class, who practice at home (which is evident in their technique) don't need to ask for new material - it will be presented to them.

To complain is easy to succeed is hard. Only you can hold you back, no one else.

Nice in theory... but in reality, there are quite a few things that are beyond the control of individuals, both inside and outside of the martial arts.

 

[ATC]

I understand your concern that we take everything typed in at face value... but I fail to understand your assumption that the OP is deliberately misstating the case. Realistically, could we speak to the instructor, I suspect that truth lies somewhere in the middle. Since we cannot, we have only the OP's words and our own experiences to go on. Having had negative experiences as a female martial artist (not with my own instructor, but with other instructors) that sound rather similar, I am inclined to believe that there is at least some truth in this situation.



Certainly, students should practice outside of class, both with and without other students' help - but that also assumes that other students are available and willing to help this student. In many cases this is so - but if the attitude the OP describes is even close to what she says, it may be that senior students emulate the attitude of their instructor. As you say, we only have one side... I but present this as a possibility.



This is an interesting statement. One of the instructors I know teaches his instructor's son - who is expected to get his primary instruction from his own instructor, not his father. His father will practice with him, provide feedback on his technique, have him in class, etc. - but the father is very clear that he is not his son's instructor, and that his son's primary instruction should come from his own instructor. On that basis, the father will not work with his son on anything that his son's instructor has not already taught him. And as others have said... why pay an instructor if your primary instruction is occurring at home, from a parent?



This assumes that:
a) the OP is not practicing at home - something that has not been discussed in this thread. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't... and while I use that teaching method myself - not teaching new material until previous material is mastered - other instructors may not.

b) that it is acceptable, in this dojang, for students to ask to be taught new material. I teach my students new material when they demonstrate competence in what they've already been taught... sometimes I'll show them something when they ask, and sometimes I will determine they're not ready, either because they are not competent at things that need to be mastered first, and sometimes because what the student wants to learn hasn't yet been reached in the sequence I teach. But students who try consistently in class, who practice at home (which is evident in their technique) don't need to ask for new material - it will be presented to them.



Nice in theory... but in reality, there are quite a few things that are beyond the control of individuals, both inside and outside of the martial arts.

Every one of your arguments is enableling her to fail. Sorry but I do not agree with any of your points. Again you only put excesses in place for this student and any other student.

True story, I had stopped my training as I did not have the time to do so. However both of my children continued to train. One day they came to me and ask for help with sidekicks. This was when they were blue belts. I proceeded to help them by giving them exercises and techniques. They did these for some time and got quite good at sidekicks.

They then were in class one day (I was not there) and that day they were doing sidekicks. The instructor did not like what they were doing. They told the instructor that their dad had shown them this. The instructor scolded them and told them that he is the instructor and that he is a black belt and that their dad was not and to do the drills and techniques that he taught.

My kids came home from class and like after every class I asked them how was class and what did they do that day. They told me what the instructor said and I got mad. I made it a point to keep trainng them the way I thought best and also made it a point to find time to go back to class to prove my point.

Well I got back into class after some time my kids both excelled from both mine and the instructors teaching.

To make a long story short I now instruct side by side with this instructor and he has since adopted many of my teaching techniques. Both my kids are top in the class and also help instruct (even adult classes). I did not just give up because someone put an obstacle in my way.

The one thing we do not do in our dojang is allow for excuses. Even if an instructor is wrong about something that is not an excuses. Overcome it. That is one of our mottos. It is your job to overcome anything in front of you. With or without help. If you can do it on your own great, but if you need help then get it.

I appreciate your comments but I cannot accept them as your way of thinking to me breeds failure.

 

[Kacey]

Every one of your arguments is enableling her to fail. Sorry but I do not agree with any of your points. Again you only put excesses in place for this student and any other student.

True story, I had stopped my training as I did not have the time to do so. However both of my children continued to train. One day they came to me and ask for help with sidekicks. This was when they were blue belts. I proceeded to help them by giving them exercises and techniques. They did these for some time and got quite good at sidekicks.

They then were in class one day (I was not there) and that day they were doing sidekicks. The instructor did not like what they were doing. They told the instructor that their dad had shown them this. The instructor scolded them and told them that he is the instructor and that he is a black belt and that their dad was not and to do the drills and techniques that he taught.

My kids came home from class and like after every class I asked them how was class and what did they do that day. They told me what the instructor said and I got mad. I made it a point to keep trainng them the way I thought best and also made it a point to find time to go back to class to prove my point.

Well I got back into class after some time my kids both excelled from both mine and the instructors teaching.

To make a long story short I now instruct side by side with this instructor and he has since adopted many of my teaching techniques. Both my kids are top in the class and also help instruct (even adult classes). I did not just give up because someone put an obstacle in my way.

The one thing we do not do in our dojang is allow for excuses. Even if an instructor is wrong about something that is not an excuses. Overcome it. That is one of our mottos. It is your job to overcome anything in front of you. With or without help. If you can do it on your own great, but if you need help then get it.

I appreciate your comments but I cannot accept them as your way of thinking to me breeds failure.

As I said, I believe the truth lies between what was written and what the instructor would say were he here to give his side. I am not, as you seem to think, attempting to provide excuses for the OP to use; however, I do recognize that sometimes events are beyond individual control. As I said, I have experienced instructors who refuse to teach me because I am female, who, when asked, told me I would receive no instruction from anyone in that dojang - that's something I can't control; however, I could, and did, choose not to return to those instructors' classes.

As far as your instructor using your exercise... I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion at hand. You chose to teach your sons... that's your choice. I can think of several reason why a black belt would refuse to teach his/her own children or other family members, some of which I consider valid and some of which I consider invalid. Nonetheless, every situation is different and should be treated individually - just because it worked for you and your sons does not mean you have the ultimate solution for everyone.

 

[ATC]

As far as your instructor using your exercise... I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion at hand.

It was in response to your statement below. Because I was persistant and showed that what I was doing was indeed something that works even though he did not want me to teach my son and daughter, his way and his way only. I over came his tunnel vision and opened his eyes. I did not quit nor did my children just quit.

This is an interesting statement. One of the instructors I know teaches his instructor's son - who is expected to get his primary instruction from his own instructor, not his father. His father will practice with him, provide feedback on his technique, have him in class, etc. - but the father is very clear that he is not his son's instructor, and that his son's primary instruction should come from his own instructor. On that basis, the father will not work with his son on anything that his son's instructor has not already taught him. And as others have said... why pay an instructor if your primary instruction is occurring at home, from a parent?

 

[BrandonLucas]

Really, there's no sense in arguing the points back and forth. We don't have enough info from the OP to really make a valid judgement about what is going on, and just going by the info given is going to yield multiple answers, none of which are wrong.

Like Kacey, I think that the truth is somewhere between what is in the OP and what actually happened. It's the same with any other story you would hear from someone else. You are only hearing one side of the story, unless you are able to talk to both parties. The best any of us can do is speculate, and the info we're given to speclate with is just not enough.

In either case, the OP has returned to the instructor in question after leaving, so from here, whatever speculation we can give about the OP is neither here nor there. Hopefully, she can persevere beyond herself and beyond her instructor.

 

[granfire]

I just want to add, some times not walking away is the real failure.

been there, done that, got the T-shirt and lingering regrets, after over 20 years. Not MA, but one of life's lessons...