Question about Legitimacy of What I Learned

[frank raud]

The fact that this guy was inducted into the Canadian Black Belt HOF baffles me.

Not trying to defend O.E. Simon, but his entry into the Hall of Fame is as an Entrepeneur, establsihing business practices in the martial arts
Dr. Olaf Simon

Entrepreneur



Grand Master Simon is nothing short of a living legend in Canadian Martial Arts. Born in Steinort, Germany, in 1929, he escaped from a Russian Death Camp in 1945. After the war, he studied Medicine and then switched to Literature and eventually attained a Ph.D from the University of Jena - one of the oldest and most prestigious Universities in the world.



In 1963, he opened the first martial arts school in western Canada, where Canadian newspapers labeled him as the “Fastest Foot in The West”. His amazing skill, mixed with speed and a flair for the dramatic, earned him international recognition by names like America’s Ed Parker, Okinawa’s Zenpo Shimabuku, and Tae Kwon Do’s Jhoon Rhee. His demonstrations and reputation as a fair referee had Simon in demand all over North America.



His book, “The Law of The Fist”, was first copyrighted in 1969, making it the first book ever written on the subject by a Canadian. He subsequently wrote two more books on the martial arts.



Perhaps the one thing he did that set the martial arts world up for success was his unique and original business ideas that set him apart from so many in the late 1960s and early 1970s. At the time, these ideas were frowned upon but now are considered the norm. Selling annual memberships and running a school as a business not just a club in a back alley were unique and different. He was most certainly a man ahead of his time and he set the standard for today’s schools all over the world, which, in turn, helped make martial arts a household name.

To be fair, I had discussions with Don Warrener about the claim that Simon wrote the first martial arts book by a Canadian. it got rephrased as seen above.

 

[Hot Lunch]

I've had a knife pulled on me three times. One time did, admittedly, cost me an eye, but I survived. The other two times (both in the ER) I was unharmed. So... no. This is not correct.

You also practice traditional Korean martial arts. But rather than coming to disagree with Kung Fu Wang on his statement about martial arts with long histories, you came here to disagree with me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

martial arts with long histories, ...

The Chinese wrestling has long history (246 BC) than any MA systems on this planet. But it still won't help anybody to win a match on the mat.

戰跤史 History & Evolution of Combat Shuai-Chiao – Combat Shuai-Chiao 實戰摔跤

 

[Hot Lunch]

The Chinese wrestling has long history (246 BC) than any MA systems on this planet. But it still won't help anybody to win a match on the mat.

戰跤史 History & Evolution of Combat Shuai-Chiao – Combat Shuai-Chiao 實戰摔跤

Did the OP say anything to indicate that that's what he cares about?

 

[MacHudde]

Did the OP say anything to indicate that that's what he cares about?

My main topic was not about the legitimacy of whether the stuff I learned would work in a fight but rather the legitimacy of what I learned because the man who taught my master didn't learn the entire system, claimed he did, and then ranked himself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

didn't learn the entire system,

Do you think there exist someone on earth who has learned the entire MA system?

Did Bruce Lee learn the short knife form and staff form from his WC teacher? He had never mentioned that. So, Bruce Lee may not be a legitimate WC teacher, but he was a qualified JKD teacher.

 

[MacHudde]

Do you think there exist someone on earth who has learned the entire MA system?

Did Bruce Lee learn the short knife form and staff form from his WC teacher? He had never mentioned that.

I should have used better wording as I didn't mean the entire Kenpo system. What I meant was. Olaf Simon didn't learn everything he needed to be the rank he claimed to be. He gave himself a black belt in Kenpo and then granted himself the rank of master. He even said Ed Parker gave him an 8th-degree black belt in Kenpo.

I view it like this. Say I was a blue belt in Kenpo. That doesn't mean I can go open a school, claim to be a 2nd or 3rd-degree black belt, and train students and tell them everything I am teaching them is up to black belt in Kenpo when it isn't. And that is exactly what Olaf Simon did.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Do you think there exist someone on earth who has learned the entire MA system?

Yes. Everyone with an honorary dan grade has.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You also practice traditional Korean martial arts. But rather than coming to disagree with Kung Fu Wang on his statement about martial arts with long histories, you came here to disagree with me.

The length of an arts history has little or nothing to do with it's value or effectiveness.
I disagreed with you because what you claimed was demonstrably wrong.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The length of an arts history has little or nothing to do with it's value or effectiveness.

There is an argument to be made that the history of an art does have some effect - some positive, some negative. Like a snowball rolling down a hill, accumulation happens, the ball gaining size as refinements, new concepts and principles are added (and sometimes subtracted). Whether these changes are positive or negative can depend on one's point of view.

To a large extent, the art reflects the environment it is evolving in. Kung fu (some styles) took on a softer more flowing aspect during the 1500's as Taoism peaked, reflecting harmonic balance with the physical and spiritual. While this added a philosophical element to the art and useful circular flow, some styles became too flowery, diminishing their combat effectiveness. As sport karate developed in the 1900's techniques became more defined for form and adjusted for sparring effectiveness within the rule system. This gave the art a new purpose other than just self-defense.

I give these two examples to illustrate that TMA has evolved over history, resulting in the arts we currently practice. Whether one sees value in this depends on what MA is to you, a topic much discussed on this forum. But regardless of one's view, modern MA's that had their roots in TMA are a product of this history. Along with this comes remnants of what it was and the changes that has made it what it is. At the very least it has provided a rich source of legends and myths, concepts, theories and philosophies (of combat and life) for us to enjoy and use as we wish for our own personal development. Without that past there is no present.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The length of an arts history has little or nothing to do with it's value or effectiveness.
I disagreed with you because what you claimed was demonstrably wrong.

No, you disagreed with me because you have personal issues with me. Remember the UK vs US standard of living argument? You'll abandon the things you're supposed to stand for in order to get a jab in on me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No, you disagreed with me because you have personal issues with me.

I disagreed with you because what you said was incorrect.

Remember the UK vs US standard of living argument?

You were wrong there, too.

You'll abandon the things you're supposed to stand for in order to get a jab in on me.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night...

 

[Hot Lunch]

I disagreed with you because what you said was incorrect.

I'm the main target for your pedanticism. You ignore others who could easily be.

You were wrong there, too.

Nope, you were. All you did was throw hypotheticals in an attempt to play devil's advocate, while I threw out straight numbers.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night...

Ah, your chosen martial art and your nationality? You put that on full display here. I didn't have to "tell" a word.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Olaf Simon didn't learn everything he needed to be the rank he claimed to be. He gave himself a black belt in Kenpo and then granted himself the rank of master. He even said Ed Parker gave him an 8th-degree black belt in Kenpo.

Question not related to this thread. I'm just curious to hear some perception about "learn everything that goes with the rank claimed"

1. A person learns everything to be a black belt but cannot apply many of the techniques.
2. A Person doesn't learn eventing but can apply 45% of the techniques.

What matters more to the outsider looking to learn a martial art.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Question not related to this thread. I'm just curious to hear some perception about "learn everything that goes with the rank claimed"

1. A person learns everything to be a black belt but cannot apply many of the techniques.

2. A Person doesn't learn eventing but can apply 45% of the techniques.

How are we gauging this? Their win to loss ratio on the streets?

What matters more to the outsider looking to learn a martial art.

I don't think the scenario you're describing is unique to martial arts. Just about any credential you can think of, there are people who have it that can't apply what they were tested on in order to get it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Question not related to this thread. I'm just curious to hear some perception about "learn everything that goes with the rank claimed"

1. A person learns everything to be a black belt but cannot apply many of the techniques.
2. A Person doesn't learn eventing but can apply 45% of the techniques.

What matters more to the outsider looking to learn a martial art.

It's not important how much that you know (such as 100 years Kempo history). What's important is how well that you can apply your MA skill.

If your teacher can teach you how to fight, he is a good teacher. Otherwise, he is not a good teacher.

Is Bruce Lee a legitimate WC teacher? His WC teacher could not do his kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes. Everyone with an honorary dan grade has.

Why is dan grade and history more important than fighting skill?

I had 1 student who had been with me for 8 months only (qualified as a beginner). During those 8 months, we met 4 times a week, 2 hours a session. He didn't want to learn any basic, stance, stretching, kick, punch, footwork, ... He just wanted to learn how to fight. When he arrived, we put gloves on and fight full contact for 2 hours. 8 months later he got into a street fight. His opponent could not even land a single punch on his body. If I want to hire a bodyguard, I will hire him instead of hiring a black belt.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes. Everyone with an honorary dan grade has.

Honorary Dan ranks are routinely given to people with no knowledge or training in any MA at all.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Why is dan grade and history more important than fighting skill?

I don't know where that question came from, but what you're responding to is the answer to your question of who has learned an entire MA system. If you hold an honorary dan grade (really, the highest technical grade), it's because you can perform any kihon or kata in your system on the spot if you were asked to. Well, at least in theory (I added the "in theory" part to keep Dirty Dog away).

 

[Hot Lunch]

Honorary Dan ranks are routinely given to people with no knowledge or training in any MA at all.