Qi Explained

[Kung Fu Wang]

If Qi has nothing to do with:

- punching on your opponent's face,
- kicking on your opponent's body,
- locking your opponent's elbow,
- taking your opponent down,
- choking your opponent out on the ground,

then why should you care about it?

There are so many valuable things to train in MA. Is Qi that important on your training list?

Today, I'll be more interested to make sure that I can still do my "front toes kick, front heel kick, roundhouse kick, side kick" combo over and over. By repeating my drill, I can maintain my power, balance, flexibility, proper breathing, and health. I truly have no time to worry about Qi at all. Will I worry about Qi sometime in the future? I truly don't think so.

 

[Gyakuto]

Another one of these? Well you seem to be a supporting member so I'll give it a shot I guess.

Qi is something that is part of an advanced training system found in some martial arts, notably Chinese internal arts. Some other arts are aware of chi but might not really use it, so they won't have a good set of definitions or information surrounding it. So your opinion is a bit suspect, because you are basically just saying you're uneducated on the matter. It's not an attack, it's true -- you're saying there's no evidence -- not that you investigated it (ex. got lineage in bagua or xingyi) and after going through the training you know it's fake. You are simply operating from a position of no information.

Chi is not something you can just pick up and use. It's part of a martial arts tradition. If you are not a part of that tradition, it is strange that you would want to start telling people what is inside it.

Given all that I would say, don't worry about Chi, even most tai chi people don't know what it is, sad to say.

I haven’t investigated the Loch Ness Monster, Relativity, quantum mechanics, but others have and I rely on their dispassionate work to make value judgements on these phenomenon otherwise everyone would be reinventing the wheel everyday. You build on previous research.

There is no objective evidence for the existence of Qi/Chi/Ki. The great James Randi offers a large cash reward for anyone who can demonstrate these kinds of effects under laboratory conditions. It has never been claimed.

There is no objective evidence for Qi/Chi/Ki just as there’s no evidence for the existence of ghosts, ghouls, telekinesis, telepathy etc, only subjective reports of such as…”oh yes I saw it demonstrated on a stage 39years ago.” “…oh I can feel it in between my hands” and subjective evidence is not credible.

Being very generous, Qi/Chi/Ki is the advantageous use of the levers of biomechanics, the experimenter effect and participant bias.

 

[isshinryuronin]

There is no objective evidence for the existence of Qi/Chi/Ki.

That's because it's not a physical thing. It's an idea. It's the concept of one's total self being used to facilitate and manifest their energy and power. It's a way to describe this feeling as a reference we can generally relate to. So, it exists in our minds (for some) and can be expressed physically.

It's basically a "shorthand" word. Instead of saying, "breathing, relaxing, body in harmony, biomechanics, mindset, balance, visualization, channeling, tension, will, etc.," we can simply say "ki" which is much more convenient. It's a useful term in this regard. Its existence depends on all these other factors working together, being practiced and internalized. But it's not a thing in itself.

IMO, "ki" is more of an adjective in practice. It only becomes a noun when it's a subject we talk about - which we really don't need to do.

 

[Gyakuto]

That's because it's not a physical thing. It's an idea.

And Relativity wasn’t an idea? Evolution through natural selection wasn’t an idea or rather a hypothesis? The difference is that certain people went ahead and did the hard work to support that hypothesis into a theory (a theory being a hypothesis well-supported by evidence not the lay person’s definition.) Nobody has been able to do that with Qi/Chi/Ki because it does not exist.

It's the concept of one's total self being used to facilitate and manifest their energy and power.

Power? Energy? You’re adding ‘woo woo’ onto ‘woo woo’ to get woo woo squared!

It's a way to describe this feeling as a reference we can generally relate to.

Ah…a feeling…a subjective phenomenon not an objective phenomenon. I’m happy with it being subjective but it is not real, it’s a personal feeling.

So, it exists in our minds (for some) and can be expressed physically.

No it can’t because if it could, it’d be quantifiable. You mean you think it can be expressed.

It's basically a "shorthand" word. Instead of saying, "breathing, relaxing, body in harmony, biomechanics, mindset, balance, visualization, channeling, tension, will, etc.," we can simply say "ki" which is much more convenient.

Thank you, it’s as I generously said, the levers of biomechanics, experimenter effect and participant bias.

It's a useful term in this regard. Its existence depends on all these other factors working together, being practiced and internalized. But it's not a thing in itself.

I’m glad I’ve persuaded you to my rationalist way of thinking

IMO, "ki" is more of an adjective in practice. It only becomes a noun when it's a subject we talk about - which we really don't need to do.

It’s just a descriptive word now?

The ‘ancients’ used names and descriptions for phenomenon that they couldn’t explain…but we can now. The Germ theory of disease, magnetism etc. So far this quantification of Ki has not happened and no credible person is attempting to…it’d be career ending

 

[Nachi]

And Relativity wasn’t an idea? Evolution through natural selection wasn’t an idea or rather a hypothesis? The difference is that certain people went ahead and did the hard work to support that hypothesis into a theory (a theory being a hypothesis well-supported by evidence not the lay person’s definition.) Nobody has been able to do that with Qi/Chi/Ki because it does not exist.

Power? Energy? You’re adding ‘woo woo’ onto ‘woo woo’ to get woo woo squared!

Ah…a feeling…a subjective phenomenon not an objective phenomenon. I’m happy with it being subjective but it is not real, it’s a personal feeling.

No it can’t because if it could, it’d be quantifiable. You mean you think it can be expressed.

Thank you, it’s as I generously said, the levers of biomechanics, experimenter effect and participant bias.

I’m glad I’ve persuaded you to my rationalist way of thinking

It’s just a descriptive word now?

The ‘ancients’ used names and descriptions for phenomenon that they couldn’t explain…but we can now. The Germ theory of disease, magnetism etc. So far this quantification of Ki has not happened and no credible person is attempting to…it’d be career ending

Well, there is no proof any god of any religion exists, either, and people live their lives and wage wars over it.

I find qi a good concept to help describe the feeling of the movement you want to learn, for example. To build the tension, maintain the flow, build the stance, help the timing and generally help you imagine the feeling you should have in different aspects of your training.
Or how to work with your energy, in short.
It don't see it as anything supernatural, but a helpful concept. It is not something you can measure.
I believe learning to work with your body is the same as learning to work with your qi. It is to be aware of your body. For me, at least.

 

[windwalker099]

If Qi has nothing to do with:

- punching on your opponent's face,
- kicking on your opponent's body,
- locking your opponent's elbow,
- taking your opponent down,
- choking your opponent out on the ground,
then why should you care about it?

DIdn't you train "Iron palm " ?
Is it only based on physical conditioning or is Qi gong involved in the practice ?

Ku Yu Cheung

With one iron palm slap to the wild horse, it was killed on the spot and later post-mortem dissection of the horse revealed that although no outer physical damage was evident, the spine of the horse was bruised and internal organs had been damaged. This was the result of the intensity of Ku Yu Cheung’s most renowned skill, The Iron Palm.

The incident of the ‘untameable horse’ was history’s last recorded true display of Iron Palm. Earlier remarkable demonstrations of Iron Palm from Ku Yu Cheung are photographed where Ku broke 13 bricks stacked on the ground without spacers with a single palm slap. Ku’s slap was so soft and internal that the bricks broke without a sound.

Gu was a son of Gu Lizhi (顾利之), an adept of Tantui and Zhaquan and security and escort businessman (at the time, a common business for martial artists in China). Gu Ruzhang's father was friends with Yán Jīwēn (嚴機溫), and Gu inherited his Bei Shaolin style which included 10 empty-hand forms, several weapon forms, and martial qigong techniques such as Iron Palm, Iron Body, and Golden Bell

 

[windwalker099]

The history is interesting

Starting in the late 1940s and the 1950s, the mainland Chinese government tried to integrate disparate qigong approaches into one coherent system, with the intention of establishing a firm scientific basis for qigong practice. In 1949, Liu Guizhen established the name "qigong" to refer to the system of life-preserving practices that he and his associates developed, based on daoyin and other philosophical traditions.[17] This attempt is considered by some sinologists as the start of the modern or scientific interpretation of qigong.[18][19][20] During the Great Leap Forward (1958–1963) and the Cultural Revolution (1966–1976)

Popularity of qigong grew rapidly through the 1990s, during Chairman Deng Xiaoping and Jiang Zemin eras after Mao Zedong's death in 1976, with estimates of between 60 and 200 million practitioners throughout China.

In 1985, the state-run China Qigong Science and Research Society was established to regulate the nation's qigong denominations and activities of Qigong Masters.[

KF Wang:

Back in the 80th, we heard Qi Gong masters all over China. Today, we do hear that anymore. There must be a good reason for it.

Might answer the why and what happened.

In 1999, in response to widespread revival of old traditions of spirituality, morality, and mysticism, and perceived challenges to State control, the Chinese government took measures to enforce control of public qigong practice, including shutting down qigong clinics and hospitals, and banning groups such as Zhong Gong and Falun Gong.[10]: 161–174 [23]

Since the 1999 crackdown, qigong research and practice have only been officially supported in the context of health and traditional Chinese medicine. The Chinese Health Qigong Association, established in 2000, strictly regulates public qigong practice, with limitation of public gatherings, requirement of state approved training and certification of instructors, and restriction of practice to state-approved forms

The same thing was done to CMA changing the nature of the practice into one of observing past traditions, instead of the historical reasons for the development of it.

 

[O'Malley]

I like to think of ki/chi as the level of alignment between intent and body. The better your body is able to manifest what you intend to do, the better "ki" you have.

That's why, on the one hand, any kind of physical activity builds "ki" to a certain degree (because your musculo-skeletal system and nervous system adapt to become better at performing that activity), and, on the other hand, some sophisticated physical expressions that are often associated with "ki power" require specific training/conditioning.

Thus, an athlete has better "ki" than an average person, who has better "ki" than a sick person. And one may not be able to push out Chen Xiaowang because he uses "ki": he has trained his body to expand through lines of intent in all directions all while making subtle rotations, which disperses incoming forces. This does not mean that the person pushing him has no "ki", but Chen is using his in a sophisticated way to produce a particular physical expression.

Likewise, Andrea Pirlo would manifest his "ki" through his capacity to coordinate his movements to hit the ball in such a way that it follows the trajectory he has in his mind:

This would also apply to nature, as natural forces are the physical expression (body) of the laws of physics (intent). The "ki of heaven" is gravity, and the "ki of earth" is ground reaction force.

 

[windwalker099]

If Qi has nothing to do with:

- punching on your opponent's face,
- kicking on your opponent's body,
- locking your opponent's elbow,
- taking your opponent down,
- choking your opponent out on the ground,

then why should you care about it?

There are so many valuable things to train in MA. Is Qi that important on your training list?

Today, I'll be more interested to make sure that I can still do my "front toes kick, front heel kick, roundhouse kick, side kick" combo over and over. By repeating my drill, I can maintain my power, balance, flexibility, proper breathing, and health. I truly have no time to worry about Qi at all. Will I worry about Qi sometime in the future? I truly don't think so.

In answer to your question.

There are some practices that are said to depend on this concept...


I think you might remember or have met

Al Novak, a noted - Iron palm master

I did in the 70s as a teenager.
Nice guy, he among others was responsible for promoting CMA in US during it's early years..
as it was made accessible to the gen public outside the Chinese community..

his teachers included

Novak also began studying with T. Y. Wong in the Sil Lum Fut Gar (少林佛家a.k.a. Shaolin Buddha Clan). "We used to have a school in San Francisco, 142 Waverly Place. That's where I started with the Sil Lum system, where I took Fut Gar with Jimmy Lee. We used to go down in the basement and train.

 

[windwalker099]

One of my first CMA teachers...
Mike Staples

Talking about his practice some might find interesting reading..
his experience with what is called "burning hand"

The force of qi, an integral feature of the burning hand, is one of those things you need to
experience in order to really get the idea. You can watch a gongfu master send a student
sailing through the air, but there is a part of you that figures it’s either a trick, or there is an
explanation that isn’t going to boil down some mysterious, unexplained force.

And yet…

My first White Crane teacher was a character of sorts. He was short and stocky, always wore a
silk Chinese vest, and spoke with a kind of Pidgeon English I too would adopt for some odd
reason. He fancied himself a race-car driver, though no one really knew what that was about,
and, so he said, an expert cha-cha dancer (it was a Hong Kong thing). He would make
appearances during our workouts, gathering the students around him to demonstrate various
techniques. One of us…mostly me…would serve as the attacker and he would demonstrate how
to do this or that.

As we practice it, White Crane was a predominantly “long arm” style of gongfu that called for a
healthy program of forearm training. We all worked diligently a hitting, smacking, and generally
abusing our forearms so that they could take the abuse of sparring. Indeed, I was one of the
more fanatical forearm trainers, able to bring tears to the eyes of those working the “three-
point-hit” exercises where babies would cry, women would scream, and forearms would turn to
mush.

And so it was that during one of Mr. Long’s demonstrations, I lined myself up in a typical attack
position, then came barreling in with a punch aimed at Mr. Long’s nose.

At the time, Mr. Long was mostly talking as I was coming in with my punch. He wasn’t paying
much attention to me, and as a result, he deflected my punch by “slapping” my forearm away a
bit too hard.

The “Burning Hand,
” was Mr. Long’s signature technique, and he was quite open about teaching
it those who wanted to learn it. It was an “internal” specialty, different from “external” pushing
power.

More a slap than a hit, Mr. Long would sometimes place a phone book on your shoulder
and give it one of those “slaps.
”

You could feel two things coming through the phone book. The first was a push (the external
component) that would set you back a foot or two. That was to be expected, but it wasn’t
anything to worry about. It was the second thing that was nasty... a sharp, stinging sensation
that penetrated your shoulder.

This second force seemed to follow the more external, first force. It seemed to lag behind. But
the external force was then gone in an instant, while the stinging second force stayed -- and
grew.

Now, I am not a gullible person, and it was going to take more than a trickle of this second
force through a phone book to convince me that this slapping stuff was anything much. And so
it was that Mr. Long deflected my punch with a slap…just a little too hard. And as a result, my
arm locked out in front of me, as if frozen, while a searing pain moved through the flexor
muscle compartment of my forearm.

My jaw clenched shut as I could feel beads of sweatforming on my face. Mr. Long continued to yack away at the other students, unaware of my predicament. I was struggling to breath, actually. I couldn’t move, actually. But out of the
corner of my eye, I could see the other students now looking at me with some concern.

 

[O'Malley]

One of my first CMA teachers...
Mike Staples

Talking about his practice some might find interesting reading..
his experience with what is called "burning hand"

Really cool. I've heard a lot of similar stories from different arts (daito ryu aikijujutsu, tai chi, i liq chuan, i chuan, and even yoseikan budo). I wonder if it's similar to this:

 

[windwalker099]

Really cool. I've heard a lot of similar stories from different arts (daito ryu aikijujutsu, tai chi, i liq chuan, i chuan, and even yoseikan budo). I wonder if it's similar to this:

Hard to say

Others more versed might comment on the "burning hand"
Our training at the time was pretty intense... Geared towards fighting..

Burning hand was considered a specialty hand.. not everyone at the gym
practiced it...at the time I watched, copied as much of it as I could.

Eventually, gaining some proficiency in it...although lacking some components of
the training...I often wonder about my hands now getting a little old, when they give me trouble..

"Caution to anyone trying some of the practices / should be done with guidance from
a teacher with the right medicinal herbs ."

Use to test TWC with others in the infantry unit in Germany
I was part of...Most people said they boxed. I would agree not to kick them.
During a sparring match, I slapped my opponent's forearm.

Stopped him cold, as he had to deal with the pain, and his arm numbing up, causing him to drop it.

good times