Putting yourself into the Form

[paihequan]

Mr. Roley,

Thank you for your post. I agree.

 

[Jill666]

But do you do that in other forms, or confine it to Eight Shape Form?

There's one in Taijutsu (not a formal Kata, but a pattern neverless) that strikes in nine directions with empty hand, any strike, knife, hanbo. It's the underlying principle of movement that is the key. The weapon is whatever.

That idea was very congenial to me after these years in Kenpo.

 

[Jill666]

Is the purpose of the form to teach a principle behind the movement? Or just to increase competent striking within the form?

Just curious.

(I always have questions for you. It's cool)

 

[paihequan]

It is my belief that the form is there to teach or at least lead to the discovery of certain principles, the essence held within that form.

I have always regarded each form as being a complete tradition within itself and try to look at it from this viewpoint.

 

[KennethKu]

Forms are collections of responses the creators of the forms believe/believed to be the right responses to specific attack. If you believe the creators of the forms are/were always right, then you should adhere to the forms 100%. If you believe that knowledge is subject to evaluation and verification, then you should use the forms as the starting point. JMO.

 

[chufeng]

Interesting!
But do you do that in other forms, or confine it to Eight Shape Form?

Jill,

At the lower levels we require all form be done "just-so."

The eight shapes teach strategy and are not classically, Kata, in the way most people think of Kata...but after a time, we do expect that the shape of the form teach more than "just this punch" or "just that kick."

Even our classical forms are torn apart and examined in fine detail...and yes, at the upper level, what once was a sunfist could be a spearhand or a corkscrew punch...

So, we expect the forms to be passed on, intact, as Sifu has passed them on to us; but, we also pass on a way to decipher the code of hidden and substituted techniques...buut much later in the training.

I hope I haven't confused you




:asian:
chufeng

 

[paihequan]

I guess that we each "get out of" forms what we put into them based upon our own individual views and beliefs.

 

[chufeng]

I guess that we each "get out of" forms what we put into them based upon our own individual views and beliefs.

That's not quite it...

You see the substituted technique must contain the essence of the original technique...That front snap kick could be a heel kick or a stopping kick, but it could not be a roundhouse kick...

Does that make sense?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
You see the substituted technique must contain the essence of the original technique...That front snap kick could be a heel kick or a stopping kick, but it could not be a roundhouse kick...

What he said...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[paihequan]

I cannot speak for the Okinawan and Japanese traditions of Kata but many of the Chinese and Taiwanese forms allow for a great deal of "flexibity" and indivualism within their forms. A punch in the form can have the height its performed changed depending on the individual and their understanding of the form. The same with kicks, they can be changed from say a front kick to a round kick, again depending on the experiences and interpretations of the person doing the form.

What matters is not the form but its essence.

 

[Matt Stone]

I would argue that if a technique in a form is changed in the level it is aimed, or the nature of the technique (i.e. substituting a front kick with a round kick), then the student is going beyond the intent and spirit of the form...

Such changes, though minor, can change all the possible applications that were originally intended for that form. Some forms, though few in number, are designed to have change built into them. Most forms, however, are very "set" in what they are trying to communicate.

Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, Korean... Doesn't matter. I'd say that easily 99% of all forms are meant to be left alone. You may understand variations on the techniques in the form later on, but the techniques in the form are intended to be done that way for a reason...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[paihequan]

Matt ,

Thank you for your post.

Most of the Chinese that I've come across feel that "we" in Karate talk about the Chinese arts, in relation to Okinawan Karate, as some sort of Museum piece or "old stuff" that must be regarded archaeologically. This both amuses and annoys them since their arts and related forms are very much still around and never went away, nor were they all that "secret" as some would have us believe.

It is clear that much of that which we in Karate attribute to Gongfu is not Gongfu at all, but Okinawan ... though some of it is obviously derived or inspired by direct Chinese influences.

I was informed by these people that in China, the exact number and precision of each move is variable as long as all the "elements" are there, so there are a lot of little things that differ from person to person .... which I gathered from their perspective was quite normal or natural.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by paihequan
I cannot speak for the Okinawan and Japanese traditions of Kata but many of the Chinese and Taiwanese forms allow for a great deal of "flexibity" and indivualism within their forms.

This is allowable in Bagua but in ShinYi and Taichi it is not.
You should check out the writtings of Hung Yi Shyan.

 

[paihequan]

That's interesting. I know that the Huang Shen Syan people have made several "changes" to their Crane-Fist especially in the area of the San Feng Kuai Chuan or 'Quick Fist' (what they also call "Lohan Fist" which is very close to Ershibada/Nepai) which is Master Huang's fast Taiji form adapted from the Fourth Set of the Fujian White Crane System.

I'd be interested in the writings you speak of.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by paihequan
I'd be interested in the writings you speak of.

These easiest way would be to get hold of a BBC special called "Way of the Warrior".....he is featured in the TaiChi version

 

[paihequan]

Thanks Robert,

I have that series on video and will take a look at the first opportunity that presents itself. Thanks once again.

I guess it largely is an individual view when it comes to forms.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by paihequan

I guess it largely is an individual view when it comes to forms.

Not really.

Forms were basically the collection of “notes” of other teachers that had gone before and should be remembered the way they were “written”, because they were written "that way" for a reason.....whether you see it or not.......all the while you should be making your own “notes” on what you have learned from your experiences while training in that teacher’s “notes”.

 

[paihequan]

Robert,

Thanks for your reply. I agree and perhaps I should have said that we are all responsible for taking our "own notes" when viewing the original message of forms.

For me personally, I seek the "essence" of the form over that of the actual form itself.