Putting another person before your self?

[Buka]

Buka, haha pleeeeeease can I come with you to look for a perfect cheeseburger??? please?? hey yes I understand exactly what you mean about familiar and unfamiliar settings.. that is precisely how it is here.. like what can happen here would never be permitted to happen back home in London.. it is chaos here like it is backward in time.. so yes I can appreciate what you are saying it make sense a lot.. though you would say even in a foreign place you would still know what if you see happening what is not right?? what is not "right" is nor "right" anywhere yes? you agree with this?? so the people are different adn but the thing is still wrong yes?? And then can I ask please you say "if it costs me, it costs me" when you jump in most times.. I have this same philosophy.. do you think intervening it could ever cost you more than you can pay? This is surely a consideration? like Mrs O would agree you are too valuable to get X'd out in a problem that is not your problem yes?? thank you again! x

Yes, we will search far and wide for perfect cheeseburgers, Miss Jenna.

In a foreign place wrong is still wrong, but if it's not readily recognized....the subtleties of things developing could easily be missed.

It's easy to say "if it costs me, it costs me" because I'm older now. What am I going to miss, my golden years?

The Mrs would probably say that, yes, but only because I wash all dishes in the house.
But she is far worse than I in the context of what we're speaking about. She's hard core and has rarely been described as "nice".

 

[oftheherd1]

@oftheherd1, thank you again this is super and make a lot of sense yes.. fear is interesting because I think there is a primal kind of hardcoded fear that we have by virtue of being animal in kind.. though I believe in faith there is antidote to fear.. what do you think of this statement?? it is naive?? I think I am too old and frail to be afraid of much least what can happen to the body.. there is not much remain to be afraid of beyond that yes?? Harm is that what we fear when we do not intervene to help another in a dangerous situation? We are afraid for our physical safety or even our continued existence? I am sure that is a perfectly reasonable fear to have though how does it apply to a person of faith do you think?? There is an inherent ambivalence in how we would feel about our actions and the potential risk therein were we to step into a physically harmful situation.. is complicated somewhat.. I am still interested in the place from where you found your absolute confidence that even if you were injured or like you say beaten to a pulp by a Korean gentleman intervening on behalf of your dearest that you could and would prevent harm from befalling her?? there is faith in this outcome, or not a thing more than evaluations of risk?? I am grateful for your concern thank you, prayers are a reassurance x

.. though I believe in faith there is antidote to fear..


Yes, but within that I think is also confidence, faith if you will, that is not religious.


?? I think I am too old and frail to be afraid of much least what can happen to the body.. there is not much remain to be afraid of beyond that yes?? Harm is that what we fear when we do not intervene to help another in a dangerous situation?


Bodily injury will usually heal in time (unless we are fatally injured, or forever incapacitated). Although I don’t think most people would accept personal injury if they could avoid it. Injury to what we think of as our inner selves, and want we want others to think of us may never heal. I think that whatever has given us our values, religion, law, family, culture, friends, even all combined; we are what we are, what we think we are, and what we want others to think we are. I think that gets buried in our Psyche, and controls a lot of our actions.


I can’t speak for Bill Mattocks, but if I had (and could have) made the statement he made about shame for not acting as he knew deep inside somewhere that he (I) should have acted, I would have done so out of the realization I had injured my sense of what I wanted to think I was, and what I wanted others to think of me (even if I thought they did not yet know where I had failed my beliefs). I don’t think those kinds of things go away easily for anybody. They certainly don’t for me. As far as how it applies to a person of faith, I guess that depends on the strength of the person’s faith, bounced against the other reasons for doing or not doing something.


There is an inherent ambivalence in how we would feel about our actions and the potential risk therein were we to step into a physically harmful situation.. is complicated somewhat..


That may be, and may affect any of us at any time. But it is how we face that fear that defines us as to who and what we are, as well as what we think we are. At least that is what I believe.


I am still interested in the place from where you found your absolute confidence that even if you were injured or like you say beaten to a pulp by a Korean gentleman intervening on behalf of your dearest that you could and would prevent harm from befalling her?? there is faith in this outcome, or not a thing more than evaluations of risk??


I guess I had faith I could prevent him from harming my wife, but I wouldn’t consider it a religious faith. I guess I could say I had sufficient confidence in my ability that whatever he did, even if be bested me, I could ensure it would take him time to do so, and that would provide time for my wife to run away or seek shelter or other aid. I relied on my own abilities as I perceived them, to prevent him from doing anything. I thought all those things were in my favor. At any rate, it all became a moot point as my wife disengaged from the argument. Regardless of the potential, it was just one of those little things that went away for me (even eventually my wife), if not for him.


I would reiterate that when I speak of faith in this instance, I am not really speaking of a religious faith since I didn’t consider the confrontation to be a religious matter. It was simply his selling spoiled food, and his and my wife’s reaction to telling him so. Religion to me, wasn’t part of it, other than I would hope not to violate my religious beliefs in my response. In this matter, I think I did not.

 

[Rich Parsons]

@Rich Parsons, Rich hey awesome on the book!! you have a title?? Hey thank you.. I understand what you mean though you say it is not your place to save the world or any body in it.. yet you have said if you have a capability to act on their behalf at a time of distress you will act.. is this a compulsion to act? You have said you are not your self religious though does it feel in any way like your duty or obligation to act on their behalf to prevent harm as just one human being to another irrespective of any other idea behind it?? I think you have learned a lot from your youth also.. it is this earned experience that I value most.. is why I am asking.. you have a measured way of acting in these situations.. like you say more often it is the aftermath where the real problems lie.. I have found this also.. I can act decisively though the end I bring about is not lasting.. Though I need to know how do you be measured in a harmful situation when you see some thing wrong against another person it is always wrong no?? then we have a duty to stop it no?? thank you again x

If the danger is present and there are those I need to get out first, I get them out. Then I can worry about others. If the situation allows it.

As to always being right or wrong, the only absolute I know is that Change is constant.

In other countries, or cultures, I might ask, why is that done? Or I would not do that, why are you doing this? In many times this engages the person causing the harm or threat and it redirects them from their target. So if it is a moment of anger and they lost it, maybe this distraction can get them back. If not, then I say Sorry, I am not from here, and I did not understand. I asked so you could explain.

I would not go to another country / culture and expect 100 the same. I mean in many countries that have Islam as the primary belief system, treat women in such a way I find it disgusting and horrible. Yet, it is their country and their culture and laws. So I try not to go back, and make sure no business is done there.

Take Japan for example, women are still second class in the work place and if they get married are expected to leave at a certain time to go home and make dinner and or take care of kids. Because of this they cannot get into positions of authority. I was at a meeting with some Japanese, and a Native Tunisia who is a permanent resident of the US for multiple decades was with me and my work superior. He started to get up set as this poor woman could not sit, until all the men had sat, and there was a guy who would come and go on the phone into the meeting while we were waiting for all to arrive to begin. So, if she sat, she would stand when he entered. I had to explain to my Assistance Chief Engineer that this is their culture in their country and we are their guest. He was not happy. The most senior Manager on the Japanese side recognized this and scolded her to sit down. So I praised her help, and her translation skills in the plant to workers who did not speak English well or at all. I stopped before I would normally had, as my point was made that we would not expect her to be punished for this cultural differences. She was critical to our work while there.

When someone is being hurt, II try and stop it. Be it male on male, make on female, female on female or female on male. It is instinctive to me to point to react, yet, I read the situation and if it is too chaotic and or threatening I may choose to leave and or get others out first, and then call for help if possible.

So the desire to help could be instinctual, yet the measured response as you said, I believe is learned and chosen. NOTE: When violence is required, the maximum violence allowed by law is the level to bring to end the threat as soon as possible, and then deal with getting them and yourself assistance afterwards.

So, I guess maybe I am a contradiction .

 

[Jenna]

@Buka, thank you for your consistent outlook Mr O, you make a lot of sense and have a knack for the right word, cheeseburgers on me

@oftheherd1, you have raised some quite deep issues no doubt and you have my gratitude for doing so.. thank you. I agree with how you said what we think we are controls our actions.. do you think it is true the FDR line some thing like the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?? And is it possible to have a heart like this particularly by a grace of faith do you think??I agree completely that a sense of shame can be a seemingly impossible weight to be shifted though I could only say perhaps it is not the most beheficial pattern of thinking and shame has a way of tricking you into believing it is of benefit in keeping some part of you in check.. that is untrue.. I understand completely how it can seem this way though shame is never yours to own.. specially you have a faith.. you cannot believe loving God would ever desire it an dso be rid of it.. anyway sorry to digress though I have worked with people who express shame arising from situations forced upon them you would scarcely believe.. shame encourages you to own it.. please do not buy into it.. examine what it is rationally and it can become clearer that it does not belong to you.. lift your thoughts too.. I do not mean to pontificate.. I feel your pain.. I get it I really do.. it is just not a helpful emotion.. I am interested though when you say you speak of faith and but it is not religious faith, what faith is it? You have faith in your self.. what faith is that? It is not all the same thing.. you are not here by the Grace of God?? you have a faith in man.. I would be interested to know what are the different faiths that come to bear on your life if it is not too much a question I am grateful my friend for your bearing with me.. and you have my wishes x

@Rich Parsons, you are a contradiction? or maybe flexible or adaptable is more accurate Yes you are correct about different contexts and cultures and you have evidently seen this first hand.. and but then again there would be those who would wilfully seek to exploit every situation or misfortune for their own selfish interests.. that is what is going on here.. there is exploitation that you would not believe they are getting away with it.. The chaos here enables this to happen and they know it.. so this is what I mean the wrong thing is the wrong thing no matter who or where.. you understand right? Yes some where that desire to help I think like you say Rich it must be instinctive when even despite that primal part of us anticipating danger in our instinctive action.. There is an implication for me at least that deep down we have some duty of care to others?? perhaps that is naive and but it tempers my approaches to situations like this where I KNOW I ought to intervene and I also know fully I will catch the rough end of it when I do.. It is the measured response that come in afterwards.. it is that measured response that causes like you can read above, shame or regret at either inaction or at unwanted outcomes.. In taking the measured response beforehand we may not act at all to intervene.. this would be fear I think.. Anyway you know I appreciate your thoughts and thank you again for listening and responding.. wishes to you Rich x

 

[GiYu - Todd]

@GiYu - Todd, wow well done all of yours for the 100% pass rate.. hard work paid off! thank you so much for sharing! That is interesting in that terrible car wreck you witnessed that you prioritised on basis of a perceived value of the two driver and that was based on culpability or innocence.. I think it is natural for us to do this.. it is the right thing?? Do we place our selves top of that priorities list? when we intervene in a place of danger we place our selves lower down yes? we ever place our selves at the very bottom or always some place in the middle? And would you say by engaging in the many activities you do and have done that your threshold of risk is higher than a population norm? does this mean martial artists would be more likely to intervene in a physically dangerous situation do you think?? Your thoughts are valued thank you x

I think the mental process is similar to medical triage... the prioritizing of victims. In a dangerous situation, a few factors would be: the individual's level of danger, if I know them (friends/family first), if they are victims of the situation or the cause, age of the person (kids first), if I believe I'm able to help... and the level of danger I would be in to do so. If there is only one victim, the decision has less variables. Multiple victims requires more thought.... but it has to be quick.
I'm sure my risk threshold is higher than many people. Although I try not to be careless about it. I would suspect most MA practitioners would be similar, but no guarantees.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

In what circumstances would you put the safety or physical integrity of another person before your own.. specially if you were quite certain you will bear the damage that would otherwise befall them?

Is it only a reflexive, in-the-moment action? If you thought about it you would react differently?? obrigada J

For my friends and family, I would gladly take a bullet - for any of them.
Having been in a situation personally where I was jumped and took
the beating of a lifetime, I believe I would step in in I saw someone
I didn't know being victimized.. or at least make an effort to find help.

 

[Lameman]

Personally, I have never been able to walk away from someone who needed help. Wether that as a violent situation, money, moving, painting, whatever. The three marks of a man are patience, self control and self sacrifice. I'll even risk my life for an enemy.