Putting another person before your self?

[Jenna]

I did it out of choice, it wasn't an instinct. I don't like it when people act like jerks.

..though can you be sure by intervening that the person acting like a jerk will be any less of a dick.. do you think it could happen as a consequence of your action that things end up worse than before you acted?? Does that make sense? x

 

[Rich Parsons]

[USER=72]@Rich Parsons, Rich, hey thank you.. Tell me when you acted against bullies, what made you act when you did not know the person being harassed? If it is no matter to you, why would you put your self in harms way over that person or people? Do you think there is some thing innate in people to act like this on behalf of another?? And again, if you knew or suspected de-escalation would fail and you knew or suspected you would not come out of a situation well, do you think your mind to act would differ? or is there some thing primal about acting in such a situation? Thank you x


This is what I am interested to know thank you again [/USER]

I went to San Diego in 1988 and I was there with a friend and there was a group of Thugs pushing people on the boardwalk area of the beach. They did it working their way to the beach area and I watched them all the way. When they got to the beach and started in on some college kids (* I was the same age as those college kids *) others had already called the police. I saw them on their phone from their business and from their apartment balconies. They shoved the week one with a knee brace and he went down, this was near me, now. I was leaning against a half wall and said out loud, that "I would not do that if I were you". The leader got upset and changed his focus from the injured person to me. He walked over with his three friends, to me and my friend. He asked me "What did you say?", where I repeated myself real slow like he was an idiot. This gave the injured person the time to crawl and drag himself off the boardwalk and in between two vehicles and to be out of sight. The leader said you are not from around here are you? I said, No, I was from Flint. He had no clue where it was. I told him it was an industrial town about the size of Stockton Ca. He looked confused as he did not know about Stockton. I said in Flint we were more aware of our surroundings. At this point two patrol cars had shown and were talking to two different groups, in the distance. He of course postured and breathed heavy in my face and I just stood there. He then smiled and said he liked my attitude, and turned and looked for the injured kid. His friends who had ran were still gone, but someone else had come to his assistance and helped him up and out of the area. They then moved closer to the businesses and then realized the police , and that others were pointing at them. I waited where I was, and the police were not happy that I had only talked with him. They wanted to know why would I talk to him and distract him it all. Why would I do such a thing and risk myself. I thought how could I not ?!?

I was walking around a place I was managing and I see this person beating someone up who is on the ground in a ball. Even if they started it, when you are in that position you need help. So I walked up and lifted the guy by placing my arm around his neck and lifting. Think Life saving position except not underneath an arm. As I stood up with him, and reached my 6'3" height , he was still bent over. So I then turned and kept him bent backwards over my hip. I walked him out to the parking lot from the back Miniature Golf area. His friends followed me yelling at me to not break his neck. When I let him go in the middle of the parking lot near his vehicle that I had one of his friends point out, he spun around looking for someone taller than his 7'+ height. He then looked down at me, and said "You did this to me?!?" and stepped forward. His friends stopped him as I was waiting for him to react. They then asked if I worked there. I replied yes. And if I did this regularly and I replied yes. They explained to his friend that I must either be crazy or like to fight to be in that situation all the time. I just smiled, and they called me lots of names as they got into their vehicle and left.

Another time I was at a New Year's party and a friend of mine bumped a guy moving through a group of people and spilled his beer. He stopped and apologized and said to come with him as he would get him a new one right then. The spilled beer all went on hand and floor not on the guy who owned the beer. The location was a party room in the top of a barn used for birthdays and certain wedding receptions and wakes. The guy jumped my friend and it was very uneven. 6'3' smaller frame than me with about 10 or so of his friend helping in various stage. I reached in and grabbed to grab the guy off my friend. I pulled the guy back with his torso so he could have his hands to defend himself if he needed it. As I was pulling him back one of his friends hit me with this big smile on his face. I let go and he said me and my front line are here for fun. He was the Quarterback for a local Division I Football school. I walked away, and took my jacket off, and handed it to someone. As I walked away, they all ignored me and continued to beat on my friend. I turned around unencumbered and elbowed the guy who hit me in the face in the back of the head. He collapsed into my arms. I then dragged him to the door and through him out and closed and locked it. I turned and his 10 or so friend (* all football players *) were trying to get to me so the could beat on me. I dropped and rolled under a table and then at that point their frustration kicked in and they started hitting everyone. Which is what I think their plan was all along. I hit a couple and got hit, on my way to my friend. I got to him and got him up and then was able to make room when the Football college boys ran into some Construction men, who picked up chairs and fire extinguishers and used them as blunt weapons and general mayhem with the setting off of the extinguishers. I got my friend out. The same door I locked. And took him down the stairs where I found the Quarterback, who had slipped down the stairs (* on his own drunken state *) and where I called the police, to find out he had called the police on me. :D

The police showed up arrested a lot of people and only talked to me and my friend as lots of witnesses supported what happened.

More instances as well. Just a few listed here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

hey thank you for taking time to reply! Like @Buka, I am grateful too on behalf of others that you have assisted and continue to.. Your job and hobbies both involve risk and but these acts that undoubtedly save others are not instinct and but are careful processed rapid evaluations.. when I read that it is like you have excised the emotive 'you' or the feeling 'you' out of the evaluative process yes?? You are necessarily calculated in the risks you are taking because your life and the life of others depend entirely on that, this is true? I do not know that is true.. if so would the emotive DD be more apt to act in a more careless or reckless way and endanger himself and potentially others do you think? I am wrestling with some thing like this so your view would help alot thank you x

I wouldn't say I've excised my emotions. I do try to keep them pushed aside during a crisis, though. Emotions cloud judgement, and while I am emotional as any, later, it is necessary to keep a clear head while events are unfolding.

 

[Buka]

From Jenna -

@Buka, wisdom eh? the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing, right Hey I want to ask since you have been raised up in tough areas.. I feel your pain -harassed for being different nationality and culture!! I hear you my friend! And but then tell me B like if you happen across a person in difficulty have you any obligation to act on their behalf at all, I mean if I could widen it out do we ever have any obligation like morally to help someone to whom we are in a position to offer that help and under what circumstances are you right to withhold that help when it would be in your power to act on their behalf? I mean like how do we even know it is not better to leave them to what is coming.. we all learn hard lessons from hard knocks right? How can we be sure if we weigh in that we are doing the right thing, specially for the person we claim to be intervening on behalf of?? Your thoughts would help me out a lot here and so thank you again for your input x

It really wasn't that tough an area I grew up in. Everyone had food on their table, most were two parent families, nobody got shot, nobody got stabbed. Big difference compared to today.

Nobody has an obligation to do something they cannot do. If you can do something, I guess it's a choice.
As for being sure if we weigh in - it's instinct I guess. If you've been around enough of something you just know before the average passerby will.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

@Bill Mattocks, Well apparently your immortality has not let you down yet! thank you for your reply.. I am interested why you say it was a mistake to have gotten involved? Was your intention not good? I sense a harshness around your recall of your younger 'foolish' self both for action and inaction and I wonder why so? Perhaps that younger self would have a lesson for the older wiser self to learn? Service in public defence is a noble endeavour though yes? Thank you again

In the past, sometimes I tried to help and found my help not only not wanted, but found myself under attack by both parties. When one witnesses a situation where it appears that someone is being beat down by someone else, it may not necessarily be the case that the person who is 'losing' wants or needs assistance. Since both people involved tried to kick my butt, I'd call that a mistake on my part to have gotten involved.

I have also failed to take action against something I knew was wrong on several occasions, and I wear that shame. I try to be a better person now, that is all I can do.

Here is an example. As a late 20-something, my friend and I were walking on Colfax in Denver and we saw a car driven by an older man (probably around the age I am now, mid-to-late 50s) stopped at a red light. A motorcycle ('chopper') pulled up behind him, and the heavily-leathered biker got off his bike, pulled the driver out of his car, and beat him savagely, leaving him bleeding in the street. I told my friend we should intervene, but he refused to do so. I should have gone it alone, despite my fear of the biker, but I did not. The older man got up, bleeding heavily from the face, got into his car, and drove away before we could get to him across traffic.

I might have gotten my butt kicked by the biker. I might not have been able to do anything to help the older man. But I should have taken action anyway. And I did not. And I own that shame.

Harshness? Not exactly. Clear-headed retrospective analysis. I was not in the right and I should have been. My cowardice shames me. Simple.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng, hello XS, putting your self between those you care for and a potential harmful element yes I understand this.. can you say though why would you -why does any one- act this way when the situation involves some one you do not know or even otherwise particularly care about? Like the older gentleman, you care enough to act? Is it a proximity related thing.. were you to have heard about him having fallen on the local news bulletin would he have been just another name? I am interested in how or why we are prompted to act on the behalf of another.. what do you think?? x

Honest answer; I really do not know, I just reacted to the situation without much thought.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

@oftheherd1, hello! you have made some points I want to ask you about like you can see here there is a pattern here of acting on behalf of those being bullied.. can you explain to me why you might think this view seem prevalent in people?? Is it just among people whom themselves were bullied or some thing else do you think?? And you also like @Bill Mattocks have been engaged in public defence.. would you tell me if having to perform a duty precludes that duty from being a noble act? And in dealing with the incident involving your wife, you put your self in between and were the potential consequences on your mind at all at that stage? I am happy for your tongue-fu haha.. It is a skill perhaps unlike others that only improve with age Hey I want to ask you because you have thanked God for your safety.. I want to ask if you intervene on behalf of someone else knowing or suspecting you may suffer the harm oringinally intended for them and you do so for their sake and protection, is that always the right thing to do in a moral sense?
...

No, I don't think I can explain why, other than some people, and no doubt MA, are more confident in being able to exercise altruism. It is possible a lot of MA have felt bullied and show sympathy, and act out that sympathy because of the confidence. But I think it would more likely be the first, along with any upbringing that taught helping the defenseless. But as I said, I just don't know for sure. Probably a lot of reasons.

And you also like @Bill Mattocks have been engaged in public defence.. would you tell me if having to perform a duty precludes that duty from being a noble act?

I think there is some connection. Many involved in "public defense" probably consider "public defense" a noble act and gravitate to a profession where they can protect the public. Do they stay with it? Do they find fear overcomes their desire to help people? Do they develop too much of a we/they attitude? It would depend on the person and the particular job/location they were in I suppose.

...were the potential consequences on your mind at all at that stage?

Well a lot of things were going on in my mind. I was watching him closely to detect any possible overt move towards my wife. I was considering how it might be perceived by the many onlookers, would they see all the actions to be able to see me acting defensively (I was going to do what I was going to do regardless, if he instigated an attack). But the bottom line was that he was not going to physically attack my wife in my presence. Period. The rest would just have to work itself out afterward.

Hey I want to ask you because you have thanked God for your safety..

I am sure you have noted my belief in God in other threads. It seems natural and proper that I should thank God for things that work to my benefit.

I want to ask if you intervene on behalf of someone else knowing or suspecting you may suffer the harm oringinally intended for them and you do so for their sake and protection, is that always the right thing to do in a moral sense?

I guess that would be dependent on any given circumstance. I don't think there is a one correct answer to situations without knowing all the circumstances.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

@kempodisciple, good to get your input thank you! It resonates how you say about acting without thought for your own safety in the case of accidents yes absolutely.. Can I ask please would you say the chances of you acting reflexively and putting your self in potential harms way for another person depend upon the value of that person to you? I do not mean that as a pointed question, I wonder do we all have the potential will to act thus no matter who the person is or is it quite the opposite and in acting on behalf of another we are, as you have alluded to only acting in our own indirect self-interests? Interested to know what you think x

Not a pointed question at all. In terms of acting consciously, the answer is a definitive yes. I can much more easily see myself risking my life to help my brother or girlfriend then I would helping a random guy I see on the street. In terms of unconsciously, I have no idea. All three times I did so, the person was my friend, one time my best friend, and the other two hovering between acquaintance and friend (I am now close friends with both of them though haha). No idea if this would stretch out to strangers as well, but I get the feeling that it would, since I did not consider who they were before helping them.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

@GiYu - Todd, hey thank you again! Can you tell me please looking back rationally why you acted instinctively to help others, potentially putting your self in the way of serious and potentially fatal harm like you have done when you could have stood by and watched in safety? Does every one have this innate will to intervene or is it personal perhaps because of your own situation you see things differently?? Yet you are drawing the line at intervening where some one have intentionally put their selves in a compromising situation.. Can I ask you then what is the difference between your gf doing stupid stuff and the pilot in the plane crash? It is not arbitrary drawing the line at her actions having caused the situation? If it were not your gf and but some other girl maybe drunk and being harassed is it different do you think?? I am interested to know why we might act specially when we can get our selves in harm as a consequence or not act in which case the consequence is potentially one of regret maybe?? Thank you my friend x

I suspect I have a general protective instinct. I would hope if I were in a similar situation, someone would risk themselves to come to my aid.
But there are people who do stupid things, where other more reasonable people should not risk death/injury to save them. Although, if there is no risk in the rescue, it would probably be attempted.
The ex-GF appeared to be trying to start fights, and was putting me at risk... for no apparent reason. She deserves whatever consequences she gets.
The pilots and passengers, were not doing anything where they would expect to be in mortal danger.
(I'll write more tomorrow. I have to get to the dojo for kids testing tonight.)

 

[donald1]

@donald1, hey thanks.. you like helping people, might that include people you don't really know, like I mean outside of your family/friends? What about some one you don't much care for, would you be likely to walk away if you saw that person in trouble that might benefit from your help? Do you think all people like helping other people, or at least have that feeling somewhere in them -maybe in some it is buried more deeply?? What do you think?

Ive never ran into someone in trouble but if I have then I was completely oblivious to it then. I have helped friends and family and in occasions someone I dont know. I dont think much about it. (Usually my mind is elsewhere) Usually by help is simply noticing a charity group sitting outside the store or a donation box at the church ect. And donating a small bit of money (usually a dollar) like I said, I dont think on it much. i come, I help then finnish. Afterwards im thinking about something else entirely.

 

[Jenna]

@Rich Parsons, Rich, you know I am amazed you are still around after the stuff you have been involved in.. I think there is a purpose for you! specially since these situations which benefit from your intervention seem to root you out! Thank you for sharing these.. you are another one I would ask.. why have you not written all of your stuff down into a book!! Let me ask you what is at the crux of what I hope to understand.. why do you feel inclined to intervene where your intervention may help some one else in those situations you have no obligation or duty to do so? Why do you act when it is not your job, you are not in the role of police, what cause you do it? DO people not all have their lessons to learn, people will not always have you around to help, right? It is an instinct among people who do martial arts maybe?? Thank you again, I am grateful to you as always x

@Dirty Dog, thank you for explaining and I understand exactly and agree how you mean this about emotional clouding of judgement.. It would be your advice maybe in a situation involving the safety of another person is it best to eliminate or put aside any potential emotional consideration in order to ensure best outcome? It can be difficult to do this, right? Like you know if that person were some one you cared for and that emotional consideration could be the thing to persuade you to act irrationally.. Even though I know you are tough you have obvious heart and humanity and so that is why I am asking is it possible to put emotional judgement sufficiently far out of the equation as to make any decision to act a rational one?? Thank you again Jx

@Buka, Aha you will have to forgive me my friend when you explained 'the projects I had thought it was like analagous to being raised in a tough area, though that is just what I pick up on tv and not real life, apologies Still, you are saying about being sure whether to jump in or not is instinct? Some times in following that instinct to intervene there are created consequences further down the line we are not always party to at the moment of our acting, yes? means our instinct to act did not have the result we had genuinely intended.. do you follow how I mean this?? I am not talking about second-guessing an instinct to act, that is not possible in the moment, rather that instinct, even if it has the immediate positive effect, can be shown with hindsight to have been the wrong thing to do.. I hope this is clear.. If this can happen, and this can also happen if our decision was to NOT act, then what is the best thing to be done? This is too much of a question?

@Bill Mattocks, hey thank you again for replying, what you have said is very helpful and but also you have me concerned for you to hear you own this as shame and hold your self responsible.. If you are able to say to me I would want to ask you why is this? why are you claiming ownership of this shame when all you did was not get involved in a dangerous situation, this is what most everyday normal cautious people do, no?? I want to ask you please same question I ask of @Buka above because you have a measured way of thinking also.. like if you intervene in a harmful situation on behalf of another person and -as you had found- it conclude less positively than you had wanted -or- you do NOT act in a situation and then regret the inaction or develop shame-based thoughts then how are you or how is any one to best enable them selves to do what is "right" in that situation specially if there is perhaps not much time for rational cogitating? I mean if it is as you say, retrospectively proven to be a poor decision either to act or not act, does that preclude it from being the "right" thing at the time we acted?? like morally the right thing.. I am sure you appreciate how I mean that term.. least I hope so.. thank you again and thank you for your honesty and forthrightness it is a great help

@Xue Sheng, hello XS, hey will you think on this for me yes?? like you said "Honest answer; I really do not know, I just reacted to the situation without much thought" and I understand how you mean this of course.. I like to know what you mean you just reacted to help the old guy.. or the same could apply to a family member say.. you mean like your muscles just activated? why did they not activate in a way that got you away from this trouble instead of into it?? is it some thing in built into us? do you follow? if not thank you for taking time at least x

@oftheherd1, hey! Well yes I cannot help my self noticing any person of a faith, it is why your view is also important to me and why I persist in asking questions of you hope you do not mind.. you have raised a lot of points I have thought about.. I will not take up all of your time.. just want to ask of you like you pose a rhetorical in respect of public defence which I think cut to the knub "Do they find fear overcomes their desire to help people?" can I ask do you think if we did not all have that -what is perfectly normal and rational fear hardcoded into our psyche- would our desire to help people come out even more?? It is like self-protection and preservation that hinder us from acting in a righteous way?? -again I hope you understand what I mean by that word in the truest moral sense.. what do you think.. it is fear, right?? this is very helpful for me you have got me thinking where is that fear from.. thank you.. it is enlightening me to a truth maybe.. what do you think? there is not fear in a true faith and a pure heart yes? sorry I am off haha.. You also said that the guy was not going to physically attack your beloved wife.. you were absolutely certain of that.. 'period' you said.. I want to ask where did you come by that certainty that no harm would befall your wife in your presence? It is interesting I believe that we can have this assuredness and yet then we also can doubt it and not know what is the right thing to do -I am pointing this at my self in a situation I am in between intervening and fearing consequence for me and for the other or not intervening through fear of physical harm and also of unknown consequence.. either way fear is a factor right? And what is the right thing is surely always the right thing?? I am sorry this is a jumbled question.. I very much respect and appreciate your time though thank you again my friend x

@kempodisciple, hey thank you for replying.. so it seem rationally that we are more likely to intervene or put our selves in harms way on behalf of another peson if that person is of more "value" to us.. yet there is some thing else going on anomalous to that hypothesis that suggest we have cause to intervene anyway.. interesting too that those people subsequently became close friends of yours? What can be taken from that I wonder? I have seen this before where people will rescue strangers from road traffic accidents only to become lifelong friends.. that is interesting to me.. thank you again x

@GiYu - Todd, you make another very interesting point.. like if we consider what we would hope another person would do to assist us were we in harms way might that inform our own decision to act on THEIR behalf I wonder.. that is a good point you have made thank you.. Still I am hearing in your words you have a dislike for the stupid things people do that get them in danger.. we do not all do stupid things some times?? I do alot haha.. Maybe I would not deserve help from any one else in that case?? I know my son had done some regrettable things specially with money, it was never in me though to withdraw my assistance.. I sense there is some thing else in you about that and but I will not pry in public xx.. Hey I sent wishes the testing went as you hoped it would x

@donald1, hey there thank you for your reply.. well let me ask you this, why do you give a small bit of money to someone more needy through a charitable donation? That is money you can spare? Can you forsee circumstances that you would give away money if you could not spare it? thank you again

 

[donald1]

@donald1, hey there thank you for your reply.. well let me ask you this, why do you give a small bit of money to someone more needy through a charitable donation? That is money you can spare? Can you forsee circumstances that you would give away money if you could not spare it? thank you again

I got plenty money , its all good.
A dollar might not mean much to some people but it puts a smile on their faces

 

[Bill Mattocks]

@Bill Mattocks, hey thank you again for replying, what you have said is very helpful and but also you have me concerned for you to hear you own this as shame and hold your self responsible.. If you are able to say to me I would want to ask you why is this? why are you claiming ownership of this shame when all you did was not get involved in a dangerous situation, this is what most everyday normal cautious people do, no?? I want to ask you please same question I ask of @Buka above because you have a measured way of thinking also.. like if you intervene in a harmful situation on behalf of another person and -as you had found- it conclude less positively than you had wanted -or- you do NOT act in a situation and then regret the inaction or develop shame-based thoughts then how are you or how is any one to best enable them selves to do what is "right" in that situation specially if there is perhaps not much time for rational cogitating? I mean if it is as you say, retrospectively proven to be a poor decision either to act or not act, does that preclude it from being the "right" thing at the time we acted?? like morally the right thing.. I am sure you appreciate how I mean that term.. least I hope so.. thank you again and thank you for your honesty and forthrightness it is a great help

Jenna, I am Catholic. It's part of my upbringing to Mea Culpa for my sins of commission and my sins of omission. The things I have done and the things I have not done, which I knew in my heart were wrong.

I do not judge anyone else by the standards I apply to myself, whether those are higher or lower. Sometimes that means I do not judge myself by what others can do and I cannot. Other times it means that I don't judge them by what I can do that they cannot.

As to my decision-making, I know it doesn't take much in terms of conscious contemplation. It's 'gut instinct', but I am sure that my gut instinct is a product of who I am, my experiences, my upbringing, my internal moral code, my ideal of the 'good man' I would like to be. That means my flaws and my strengths play into it as well, I suppose. So it is as if the calculations have all been done; all that is needed is to add the current situation and turn the handle; an answer pops out, saying "Here is what you should do now."

I often walk ahead of a lady to open a door for her. At times, I have been thanked for it. At other times I have been ignored. And a couple times, I've gotten murderous glances or actual nasty comments. Is it objectively right or objectively wrong for a man to open a door for a lady? I don't know. All I know is what *I* do, and that's to open a door for a lady. What *they* do isn't the important part to how I feel about myself for having done or not done it. Does that make sense? My inner guide tells me to open the door for a lady. If I do not do it, I feel badly about myself. Whether or not the action is needed or appreciated. Because I ignored what MY gut tells me is right. The only exception would be if I had been previously informed by a particular person that they did not want me to open doors for them, in which case I am happy to let them open their own damned doors.

Take the above example and put it into the context of someone jumping in to defend another person against violence; it's the same sort of thing. I know what my gut tells me to do. I can go with that or ignore it. The recipient of my decision may or may not appreciate my intervention; but it's my gut that holds me responsible, not what they want or need.

 

[Rich Parsons]

@Rich Parsons, Rich, you know I am amazed you are still around after the stuff you have been involved in.. I think there is a purpose for you! specially since these situations which benefit from your intervention seem to root you out! Thank you for sharing these.. you are another one I would ask.. why have you not written all of your stuff down into a book!! Let me ask you what is at the crux of what I hope to understand.. why do you feel inclined to intervene where your intervention may help some one else in those situations you have no obligation or duty to do so? Why do you act when it is not your job, you are not in the role of police, what cause you do it? DO people not all have their lessons to learn, people will not always have you around to help, right? It is an instinct among people who do martial arts maybe?? Thank you again, I am grateful to you as always x

...
thank you again

Jenna,

It is not my place to save the world.
It is not my place to save an individual.
I have watched young arrogant people who start things get hit and if the try to leave or on the ground and cannot defend themselves then I will step in, yet as long as they want to play the game of pain they started and are loosing I let them do so.

I did it before Martial arts.
I am not religious as Bill mentioned that he was. (* with all the respect given by me for his beliefs *)

I was picked on as a kid. I was teased. I was called names. I was called racial slurs as well.
I did not like it. I also did not like hurting people. So I usually just took it until it got physical and then I would stop them as quickly as I could.
Later I tried to be more subtle and more patient in the physical response, now I provide an equal and opposite measure as provided by the law to end the Attack as soon as possible and then as in many cases, provide assistance to those I just harmed while waiting for official help to arrive.

One such man came back and apologized and said he had learned his lesson.
Others tried to get even. they would escalate. I would respond in equal fashion each time and also call the police to respond and to deal with the aftermath. I also showed from my records that they kept coming back to me and that it was an issue. So that the legal system would pick it up and deal with them.

Is it something I go out looking for? NO.
I even make plans to go to places with friends that are more likely to not have such events happen. I prefer calm.
Yet, if someone is in trouble and in need of help and I can provide it, I will.


As to the book, I have some Intellectual Property issues I am currently working out that should be resolved in the next year or so. I hope.

 

[oftheherd1]

@oftheherd1, hey! Well yes I cannot help my self noticing any person of a faith, it is why your view is also important to me and why I persist in asking questions of you hope you do not mind.. you have raised a lot of points I have thought about.. I will not take up all of your time.. just want to ask of you like you pose a rhetorical in respect of public defence which I think cut to the knub "Do they find fear overcomes their desire to help people?" can I ask do you think if we did not all have that -what is perfectly normal and rational fear hardcoded into our psyche- would our desire to help people come out even more?? It is like self-protection and preservation that hinder us from acting in a righteous way?? -again I hope you understand what I mean by that word in the truest moral sense.. what do you think.. it is fear, right?? this is very helpful for me you have got me thinking where is that fear from.. thank you.. it is enlightening me to a truth maybe.. what do you think? there is not fear in a true faith and a pure heart yes? sorry I am off haha.. You also said that the guy was not going to physically attack your beloved wife.. you were absolutely certain of that.. 'period' you said.. I want to ask where did you come by that certainty that no harm would befall your wife in your presence? It is interesting I believe that we can have this assuredness and yet then we also can doubt it and not know what is the right thing to do -I am pointing this at my self in a situation I am in between intervening and fearing consequence for me and for the other or not intervening through fear of physical harm and also of unknown consequence.. either way fear is a factor right? And what is the right thing is surely always the right thing?? I am sorry this is a jumbled question.. I very much respect and appreciate your time though thank you again my friend x

I don't mind your questions at all.

If we didn't have fear hard-coded in our psyche there would surely be a lot less of us around, whatever else it might lead to. I think if all lacked fear, it might allow many to involve themselves in things that they didn't see a need to get involved in. Would that involvement be related to us "..acting in a righteous way?" I don't know. It might simply be a rational decision that someone needed assistance and we could, therefore would. Or we might retain altruism and act because we had no fear. If that makes sense.

I would guess fear would have to be considered a survival trait, as would the amount of fear we allow to influence us. We have to bounce that off physical and cultural consequences.

"...there is not fear in a true faith and a pure heart yes?" That brings in another perspective and compulsion. I think most people have fear of one magnitude or another in what they perceive as a dangerous situation. How they react to that fear, and whether or not they allow their faith or 'pure heart' to guide them to act to save another, or preserve themselves, would probably depend on the strength of their 'faith' or their 'pure heart.' Culture and personal values imbued in them would also be factors.

I was certain that no matter what happened to the other man or myself, I would not allow him to hurt my wife. Even if I was injured, I had confidence that I could, and would, prevent him from doing that. I really didn't think he could best me anyway. He being a Korean, he was most likely to know no more than some TKD, if that. That would not have equipped him to best me. Even if he was adept, he would not have expected a Hapkidoist to contest him. But regardless, even if I knew he could and would beat me to a pulp, I would at least have provided my wife an opportunity to remove herself from danger. I could not face myself if I did not do that, as defending my wife is unquestionably the right thing for me to do.

I do not know the circumstances you are in with your questions. You are asking right questions. I don't know of course if there are other questions you should be asking. Once you are sure you have asked yourself all the questions pertinent to your situation, only you can then determine what you think is the best course of action. Can you likely change a dangerous outcome for this other person? Can you find a way to do so without endangering yourself, or the other person? Can you find a way to keep yourself out of danger? Can you estimate that danger, and accept that danger to yourself? Can you face yourself if you don't try something to help the other person? Can you justify inaction to the point you don't flail yourself with guilt the rest of you life? Will your action or inaction cause you to make bad decisions in the future? Sorry, no easy answers.

I only know you through Martial Talk. But in that time, I have learned enough to believe you will make the right decision. I will also pray that you will, and that it will be a decision that will help the situation and leave you unhurt.

 

[Buka]

@Buka, Aha you will have to forgive me my friend when you explained 'the projects I had thought it was like analagous to being raised in a tough area, though that is just what I pick up on tv and not real life, apologies

Still, you are saying about being sure whether to jump in or not is instinct? Some times in following that instinct to intervene there are created consequences further down the line we are not always party to at the moment of our acting, yes? means our instinct to act did not have the result we had genuinely intended.. do you follow how I mean this?? I am not talking about second-guessing an instinct to act, that is not possible in the moment, rather that instinct, even if it has the immediate positive effect, can be shown with hindsight to have been the wrong thing to do.. I hope this is clear.. If this can happen, and this can also happen if our decision was to NOT act, then what is the best thing to be done? This is too much of a question?

The projects were tough for the time, but mild compared to today.

Some times in following that instinct to intervene there are created consequences further down the line we are not always party to at the moment of our acting, yes?

Yes. But so far so good, my instincts haven't failed me yet. Doesn't necessarily mean they won't the next time, also doesn't mean anyone else's will or won't. There's also something to be said for the playing field. If I were suddenly in England or Australia or where ever, I would have no feel for, well, anything really. Even New York city, which I haven't been to in thirty years when we'd roam the streets at 3 in the morning looking for that perfect cheeseburger. I'd have no feel for the place now, my instincts would be dull. Or at least not as sharp.

Mostly, I'll go with my gut every time. And jump in most times. If it costs me, it costs me.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

@GiYu - Todd, you make another very interesting point.. like if we consider what we would hope another person would do to assist us were we in harms way might that inform our own decision to act on THEIR behalf I wonder.. that is a good point you have made thank you.. Still I am hearing in your words you have a dislike for the stupid things people do that get them in danger.. we do not all do stupid things some times?? I do alot haha.. Maybe I would not deserve help from any one else in that case?? I know my son had done some regrettable things specially with money, it was never in me though to withdraw my assistance.. I sense there is some thing else in you about that and but I will not pry in public xx.. Hey I sent wishes the testing went as you hoped it would x

I have no problem with people doing stupid things (unless they are criminal things) within reason. The freedom to make choices is part of what make life worth living, even if others may disagree with those choices. I fly planes and helicopters, have skydived, moutain climbed, scuba dived, been hang gliding and paragliding, and of course do martial arts. Many would say those were all stupid. Those were all calculated risks, and I took as many precautions as possible in doing them. I tried my best never to cause risk to anyone else while doing them. And if I was injured in those pursuits, I would pray that anyone attempting to save me would not be harmed or face undue risk in the process, even if it meant they couldn't save me.
Perhaps a better example was a car wreck I witnessed years ago. One reckless driver hit another vehicle. When I stopped to help, the first vehicle I went to was the innocent driver. Only after assessing they were okay, did I bother to check the other driver. I put more value on the condition of the person who was not at fault, and (if necessary) would have risked my safety to rescue them.
Family and friends are always a bit different. Since you care for them, you typically will make greater efforts to help them, and also give them more chances. But sometimes, they can also become a lost cause.
Thank you for your wishes for the testing. They appear to have helped. We had a 100% pass rate for the first time in over a year (although 3 kids opted not to test because they didn't feel they were ready).

 

[Dirty Dog]

thank you for explaining and I understand exactly and agree how you mean this about emotional clouding of judgement.. It would be your advice maybe in a situation involving the safety of another person is it best to eliminate or put aside any potential emotional consideration in order to ensure best outcome? It can be difficult to do this, right? Like you know if that person were some one you cared for and that emotional consideration could be the thing to persuade you to act irrationally.. Even though I know you are tough you have obvious heart and humanity and so that is why I am asking is it possible to put emotional judgement sufficiently far out of the equation as to make any decision to act a rational one?? Thank you again Jx

Sure. And like most things, practice helps. I've had a lot of practice putting emotions aside to deal with later, after the crisis has passed. I suspect it's considerably more difficult for most.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng, hello XS, hey will you think on this for me yes?? like you said "Honest answer; I really do not know, I just reacted to the situation without much thought" and I understand how you mean this of course.. I like to know what you mean you just reacted to help the old guy.. or the same could apply to a family member say.. you mean like your muscles just activated? why did they not activate in a way that got you away from this trouble instead of into it?? is it some thing in built into us? do you follow? if not thank you for taking time at least x

Again, do not know, reflex reaction possibly the guy and his wife were going to fall backwards down the escalator. I was not on it at the time. I actually could have just stood there and they would not have fallen on me. He started to fall back, I jump forward grabbed the rails and caught him. They got to the top and left safely.

blame it on my security job at the time, or my desire, at that time, to become an Police Officer, or possibly the house I was raised in, both parents were ex-Military and medical people.... as for Beijing, it just seemed like the thing to do, they were all oblivious of the biggest Chinese guy I ever saw (Think a Chinese Schwarzenegger, only taller) following us everywhere we went, it was dark and he was following us and I doubted running was an option since one for the 4 of us was a little girl. Luckily, in that case, I was wrong

 

[Jenna]

@Bill Mattocks, Thank you so much for your openness.. I would not argue at all over what are personal convictions you hold.. and if you are unable to feel absolved then I am able to understand and respect this also.. we are all human and therein is our flaw, though it is eternally worthy of an earnestly sought out forgiveness yes? Thank you for your patience in explaining.. And so then if it is as you say like turning the handle of a situation and out pop the egg with the appropriate response inside then we have no apparent choice yes? Our life and every thing in it has programmed us to react in certain ways.. then what we do intervening whether it -in hindsight- proves regrettable, still it is always forgivable, right? I am trying to reconcile this in myself.. How do you feel about how things work after the handle has been turned?? Is it for you to ruminate after what could not truly be said to have been a choice??

Yup for some gals having a gent hold open the door it is an opportunity for their frail precious ego to exploit pffft.. I would agree that what is right in that case -as you have already alluded- is whatever feel right for you in your heart that you would not need to ask subsequent forgiveness for God.. not from people.. people will take offence.. what are we to do about that.. it is their need that is unmet in their offence not ours, yes? we cannot be responsible to gauge every reaction of every other living soul?? We act how we feel is "right".. and that is that.. what do you think? Thank you.. I think there is clarity for me too in how you have expanded out your own thinking.. I am thinking if I act in a way I believe in my heart is the "right" thing then how can I be at fault subsequently.. like how could I possibly know all future consequences with any certainty.. even some thing turn out bad, that could be to the ultimate good.. this is facile you think? I am naive?? I am grateful Bill for your courtesy thank you x.

@Rich Parsons, Rich hey awesome on the book!! you have a title?? Hey thank you.. I understand what you mean though you say it is not your place to save the world or any body in it.. yet you have said if you have a capability to act on their behalf at a time of distress you will act.. is this a compulsion to act? You have said you are not your self religious though does it feel in any way like your duty or obligation to act on their behalf to prevent harm as just one human being to another irrespective of any other idea behind it?? I think you have learned a lot from your youth also.. it is this earned experience that I value most.. is why I am asking.. you have a measured way of acting in these situations.. like you say more often it is the aftermath where the real problems lie.. I have found this also.. I can act decisively though the end I bring about is not lasting.. Though I need to know how do you be measured in a harmful situation when you see some thing wrong against another person it is always wrong no?? then we have a duty to stop it no?? thank you again x

@oftheherd1, thank you again this is super and make a lot of sense yes.. fear is interesting because I think there is a primal kind of hardcoded fear that we have by virtue of being animal in kind.. though I believe in faith there is antidote to fear.. what do you think of this statement?? it is naive?? I think I am too old and frail to be afraid of much least what can happen to the body.. there is not much remain to be afraid of beyond that yes?? Harm is that what we fear when we do not intervene to help another in a dangerous situation? We are afraid for our physical safety or even our continued existence? I am sure that is a perfectly reasonable fear to have though how does it apply to a person of faith do you think?? There is an inherent ambivalence in how we would feel about our actions and the potential risk therein were we to step into a physically harmful situation.. is complicated somewhat.. I am still interested in the place from where you found your absolute confidence that even if you were injured or like you say beaten to a pulp by a Korean gentleman intervening on behalf of your dearest that you could and would prevent harm from befalling her?? there is faith in this outcome, or not a thing more than evaluations of risk?? I am grateful for your concern thank you, prayers are a reassurance x

@Buka, haha pleeeeeease can I come with you to look for a perfect cheeseburger??? please?? hey yes I understand exactly what you mean about familiar and unfamiliar settings.. that is precisely how it is here.. like what can happen here would never be permitted to happen back home in London.. it is chaos here like it is backward in time.. so yes I can appreciate what you are saying it make sense a lot.. though you would say even in a foreign place you would still know what if you see happening what is not right?? what is not "right" is nor "right" anywhere yes? you agree with this?? so the people are different adn but the thing is still wrong yes?? And then can I ask please you say "if it costs me, it costs me" when you jump in most times.. I have this same philosophy.. do you think intervening it could ever cost you more than you can pay? This is surely a consideration? like Mrs O would agree you are too valuable to get X'd out in a problem that is not your problem yes?? thank you again! x

@GiYu - Todd, wow well done all of yours for the 100% pass rate.. hard work paid off! thank you so much for sharing! That is interesting in that terrible car wreck you witnessed that you prioritised on basis of a perceived value of the two driver and that was based on culpability or innocence.. I think it is natural for us to do this.. it is the right thing?? Do we place our selves top of that priorities list? when we intervene in a place of danger we place our selves lower down yes? we ever place our selves at the very bottom or always some place in the middle? And would you say by engaging in the many activities you do and have done that your threshold of risk is higher than a population norm? does this mean martial artists would be more likely to intervene in a physically dangerous situation do you think?? Your thoughts are valued thank you x

@Dirty Dog, makes sense again thank you.. I would imagine in your professional life setting emotion aside or suspending its influence must be necessary and appropriate.. I think you are correct this may be more difficult for most.. well I know for me! This ability you have gained practice at over the years.. it would carry through to a situation where you might naturally be emotionally invested like say where it involved a person close to you or where it involved a situation that maybe had a strong emotional context regarding something in your past if you follow.. this suspension of emotional judgement would still continue in those situations?? If so, and if it is a successful strategy the emotion serve no purpose?? I hope I am not wearing by asking.. thank you I appreciate your thoughts you have already provided x