Pulling Rank

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, wow. Since this is kinda turning into slapping instructors, let me just mention a coupla things and run like crazy.

First off, I've never heard before of Mr. Parker demanding this sort of, "respect." Could you explain where you're getting these stories from, exactly?

Second off, I think you're also relying on a very exaggerated version of martial arts traditions. Were students respectful? Yep. Did they actually do this sort of, "sit outside in the rain, holding up a bowl of rice," routine? Nope--apparently, that comes from 19th-century Chinese novels, not from places like Shaolin--which incidentally, was very far from being any monastery. And some of this exaggeration comes, I suspect, from the fact that a lot of traditional arts were taught in families, so that respect for one's instructor and respect for one's dad in a Confucian culture were all tangled up together.

But third--fairly early on, I heard a quote from one of Mr. Parker's books which I commend to you: "Bow to things, but salute people." You might also want to look up, say, the Army's explanation of what a salute means---it certainly doesn't mean bowing and scraping before one's betters...

Sorry to stick to my point on this, but I really do think that this stuff is just plain wrong.

 

[dragonbyte]

Sir, I would not and have not meant to "slap" at your Instructor. (I meet Mr. Tatum briefly at Mr Trejo's Internationals, know a person who has tested under him, is now trainig in his system, and seen Mr. Tatum move on video and in clips, which shows he has great skill). If I made that impression it is because I may not be the best at putting my ideas and thoughts from my head onto a computer screen. As I try to get across my views it would not be my intent to be disrespectful to any in the art, it is not how I was taught. I would state that anything I write is only my opinion and observations.
I strongly believe that it is not belittleing to anyone to show respect the way we do. I think that "to feel is to believe" and without experiencing it, in our setting you cannot know. My experience with my Instructor is I see him humble to GOD, kind and warm to his students, true to SGM Parkers teaching, Respectful to others, and a Honest and caring man. We do what we want to Honor him because we want to, not by force or threat in any way.

As for SGM Parker, I have heard and read from many sources that SGM Parker acted, and taught differently and was addressed differently to different people. (how many Black Belts does it take to screw in a light bulb.....1 to do it and 99 to say thats not the way SGM Parker showed me...just a joke I read). I don't think I said he demanded it, but I will recheck my post.
I having also studied some in Kung Fu, JKD, FMA and being now part in (by marrage) a Chinese family, I understand why the traditions are kept and IMHO are a good thing. Been to China and seen and interacted with Shaolin "monks" and understand (not agree) why they do the things they do. (got a few interesting stories from that trip)
Seeing that I cannot get my point across and out of respect I will drop this subject for my part unless directly contacted. As it is an interesting subject and I would like to discuss it, I also would like to keep any references about specific Instructors out of public as I speak only for myself and my views. I would happly have you call me collect and will give you my number if you E-mail me (Mr. O'Briant or others posting on this topic as well).
With respect,
Dragonbyte
[email protected]

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...when I'm on a forum, I'm afraid I don't do private messages.

If I may offer a bit of advice--and following out your own logic--don't assume that the way other people do things is necessarily inferior. Even though sometimes, it is. And I might add that while I certaainly wasn't around, the folks I know who were around when Mr. Parker was around NEVER saw him behave this way. Even on ceremonial occasions--the man certainly had his flaws, but I've got a tape of a 1985 black/brown test, and demanding bowing and scraping sure doesn't look like it was one of those flaws.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that of the kenpo folks like James Ibrao, Chuck Sullivan, Frank Trejo, Steve Herring, I've briefly met beyond my own little circle, all are as far as I can see quite unpretentious. In fact, I get the disturbing impression that they're all pretty much nicer people than me.

Just as something to think about: a quote from Golda Meir that I love: "Don't be so humble. You're not that great."

It's worth considering, I think, that sometimes expressions of humility and respect might have within them a big streak of arrogance. There's a book you might look up by Chogyam Trungpa (of Naropa Institute in Boulder, a hotbed of insane "respect," under Trungpa, himself a real putz-and-a-half) titled, "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism." Basically, he argues that pride in one's spiritual attainments is exactly like pride in one's new car--it's another way to hang on to a false attachment, a cheap toy, rather than to really engage what's important. Trungpa himself, of course, apparently hung onto vodka, and limos, and sex with his students, and a lot of arrogance himself--and demanded an exaggerated obeisance from everybody in the community.

There's a good, old article in "Esquire," about the time at a spiritual retreat in Aspen (!) the Big Guy, Trungpa, had his Buddhist police (!) try to drag the poet W.S. Merwin out of bed with his girlfriend and downstairs to an audience with the Grand Poohbah. Merwin shoved one guy and laid a beer bottle up side the next guy's head before he got swarmed. He's been my favorite modern poet ever since.

I'm sorry, again, to disagree so strongly. But this stuff's dangerous. And for whatever reason--I wonder if it isn't the radical nature of kenpo--we (and I mean, "we") do seem to have a problem with it, across the board.

Thank you for the discussion, which I certainly think is worth having.

 

[Mikey]

I have been reading all these posts and just can't sit here anymore and not post anything........so, here is my two cents.
I feel that everyone is entitled to their opinion, this include's Dragonbyte, RmcRobertson, myself, and everyone else......you do things your way and we do things our way.....whose to say who is right or wrong.....You think we're wrong and We think You're wrong......it's all about respect and being humble to those who have paid the price already, so I think it's time to agree to disagree, but there does not need to be mud slinging on the web, (Anyone can be a BadA&& with a screen in front of them), Our Dojo does things our way, we feel that it is respectful to do so, BTW I am in the same Dojo as Dragonbyte, so I guess say what you want.
My email is also on my profile if anyone would like to contact me as well.

With Respect

Mike.

 

[rmcrobertson]

What mud-slinging? Only mud I saw was the repeated claim that people who thought the way I do lack respect, and must not be getting taught it by their instructors.

It was integral to your last post: "it's all about respect and being humble to those who have paid the price already, so I think it's time to agree to disagree, but there does not need to be mud slinging on the web, (Anyone can be a BadA&& with a screen in front of them)," you wrote, relying on a binary opposition between yourself (those who know about respect and being humble) and myself (well, you fill in the blank).

While I don't necessarily assume I'm absolutely right in this or any other case, I will say what I've said before: "Don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out."

It's funny. Folks like me, who so often get accused of teaching, "cultural relativism," and here I am getting accused of sticking up for certain solid standards...I mean, are we supposed to say stuff like,"Well, I don't agree with Hitler, but everybody's entitled to their point of view?"

But instead of even risking mudding anybody, could you just show me where I'm wrong? Could you give me some place where Mr. Parker asked for the sort of--let's just say, "behavior"--you're describing? Could you show me where I'm specifically wrong in what I've written about the history of the martial arts? Could you point out an anecdote I've mentioned that's patently untrue, or show me where I've been illogical? Could you explain the difference between ritual, respect and obsequiousness in some fashion I'll understand?

Otherwise, I'll have to pull one of those Captain-Kirk-defeats-NOMAD dealyboppers, and point out that if I'm your senior in the art, you should be accepting everything I write as gospel truth...including telling you not to accept everything your seniors say as gospel truth...

But instead, I'll probably just clam up. I've said pretty much everything I've wanted to say--not that that necessarily stops me--and I don't really see the point of a yelling match.

 

[Ceicei]

Ok, so much debating here...

Let's simplify something here with a question. A lot of people seem to think it's the same thing....

What's the difference between courtesy and respect?

- Ceicei

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I actually think they're closely related, what with courtesy simply being the outward show or visible sign of respect. However, one issue that these terms raise is that it is quite possible to be extremely respectful while appearing to be discourteous to outsiders.

I'll ask a question or two back: when does courtesy become--something else? And isn't courtesy culturally coded, tied to specific practices that are appropriate at certain times and in certain places? And a Freudian biggie--are there times when "courtesy," is a cover for issues of transference and counter-transference?

 

[Nightingale]

"bow to things, salute to people..."

interesting quote.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Proper respect and address apply both in and out of class. Obviously, in class all Instructors and Masters are to be addressed properly and lining up is done according to proper etiquette.
However, outside of class, in a social setting, proper etiquette still applies. I address fellow Instructors in the proper way out of respect, as I do our Grandmaster. I could NEVER call him by name, even in a social setting. In a restaurant or other setting, our Grandmaster decides who he wants sitting near him. Usually his senior students, though sometimes it is a junior students he wants to talk to. I usually end up sitting near him if not directly next to him. These spots are reserved for his Senior Instructors.
This is what separates traditional arts from simple fighting styles. The philosophy of "Do" carries over outside the dojang as well as inside. In other words, proper manners and etiquette toward fellow students and Instructors applies regardless of where you are.
Regarding the brown belt who cut front of the yellow belts, normally the black belts would set him straight during free fighting:boing2:

 

[MichiganTKD]

There is a big difference between demanding respect because of alleged rank in supposed style, how many patches you have on your uniform, number of stripes on you belt, and earning respect from students because of the years, sweat, aggravation, and effort you invested making your students what they are.
I have carried gear for my Grandmaster, run errands, bought expensive gifts, and acted as a gofer for him. Because he demanded it? He never demanded anything of me except hard work and practice. I did all this, and would continue to do this, because of the tremendous respect I have for him and everything he gave me. This man has invested 40+ years of his life, thousands of dollars, and months of travel time to ensure we had the greatest Tae Kwon Do education available to us. Carrying the occasional box or buying him a meal is the LEAST I can do for all he has given me. I am not his slave, just tremendously grateful for what he's done for me. Likewise, I demand nothing of my students except hard work and trying. Whatever they do for me they do because they love class and Tae Kwon Do.

 

[WLMantisKid]

In our school there's two ranks - Student and Sifu. Us students call eachother by our names and always greet the new guys with enthusiasm and make sure they know all of us. During class, we are silent and do exactly as Sifu tells us. Afterwards, we shoot the crap and talk for a bit before we head home. We work on projects around the school and practice our new movements. He's still Sifu to us out of school, but it's more like "Sifu, those sandals will fit you good, they're not too big" instead of "Yes, Sifu sir"

 

[Aegis]

This is what separates traditional arts from simple fighting styles. The philosophy of "Do" carries over outside the dojang as well as inside. In other words, proper manners and etiquette toward fellow students and Instructors applies regardless of where you are.

I do jujutsu (far more traditional than TKD in terms of age of the art) and nothing of the sort happens. My instructors all insist on being called by their names off the mat and treated as exactly what they are: normal people who happen to share a common interest with you. We go out and have drinks together, tell each other crude jokes, insult each other in a friendly way, etc. If he asked me to carry a bag for him I'd probably do so, but he'd do the same back if I asked him to. We respect our instructors, but they aren't gods, we aren't required to practically worship them. I think most instructors in my style would feel really uncomfortable if you treated them any way other than the one I just outlined.

 

[Marginal]

I do jujutsu (far more traditional than TKD in terms of age of the art) and nothing of the sort happens. My instructors all insist on being called by their names off the mat and treated as exactly what they are: normal people who happen to share a common interest with you. We go out and have drinks together, tell each other crude jokes, insult each other in a friendly way, etc. If he asked me to carry a bag for him I'd probably do so, but he'd do the same back if I asked him to. We respect our instructors, but they aren't gods, we aren't required to practically worship them. I think most instructors in my style would feel really uncomfortable if you treated them any way other than the one I just outlined.

As someone in TKD, I can say that nothing annoys me faster than a lower rank trying to enforce/observe etiquette. Can't stand it when they insist I walk through a door etc ahead of them simply because I started training a year or two before they did. As far as accomplishments go, it's a very thin one IMO.

 

[TigerWoman]

On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me,
a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick. So I politely tell him what he thinks is wrong is probably not in the picture. And he says, well that's a nice story, but... At that point, I tell the KID that I'm 2nd degree, go sit down. (One of the reasons, kids should not be in adult classes) There are too many precocious kids these days, a product of too much parental-endowed self esteem... think patience, patience, patience.

 

[Aegis]

On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me,
a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick. So I politely tell him what he thinks is wrong is probably not in the picture. And he says, well that's a nice story, but... At that point, I tell the KID that I'm 2nd degree, go sit down. (One of the reasons, kids should not be in adult classes) There are too many precocious kids these days, a product of too much parental-endowed self esteem... think patience, patience, patience.

What if there actually is something wrong with your technique? It's hardly unusual for lower grades to spot mistakes that you've grown so accustomed to making that you don't notice any more. You might be a 2nd degree, but your technique is not perfect. You should swallow your pride and be able to accept constructive criticism from any source and work on yourself to overcome the problem rather than putting down someone who spots what they think is an error.

 

[KenpoTess]

So true Aegis.. I have had white belt kids point things out to me that I wasn't aware of.. And I said.. "Oops.. thanks~!! They see things in a different light, a new light, and I just smiled and 'fixed' whatever it was.

On the other hand.. There's a type of personality that no matter what.. wears on the nerves, they always have to get the last word in, or always contradicting the instructor. Maybe they have an analytical mind and can't get a grasp 'around' what you're telling them. They are in the 'Know of' stage.. and they're not ready for the next stage, though they think they deserve all the answers up front. Now those type of students.. I just want to 'throttle' *Grin*

 

[KenpoTess]

When we go out to a function as a group with the head of our organization, We sit according to rank. We have one member of our school who doesn't broach the topic with us, but we hear about it from others. He is an advanced orange belt who doesn't approve of the seating arrangements. He believes he should be at the head table too. *shrugs*
And if you read the above post by me, that's the same person I'm talking about.

 

[TigerWoman]

What if there actually is something wrong with your technique? It's hardly unusual for lower grades to spot mistakes that you've grown so accustomed to making that you don't notice any more. You might be a 2nd degree, but your technique is not perfect. You should swallow your pride and be able to accept constructive criticism from any source and work on yourself to overcome the problem rather than putting down someone who spots what they think is an error.

I guess you had to be there. Don't assume anything. There's humility and then there is humility. And you have to consider the source. There is constructive criticism and possibly destructive criticism. Didn't I say I politely listened to him until he got to be a bit much? Having a lower belt tell me something irrelevant and if taken could mess me up more would not have helped him nor me. I could have said sure, good point to NOT a good point? And then gone on with whatever I was doing? He couldn't have possibly understood my technique. He was 5 years behind me and had never done it let alone begin to understand the mechanics. He also didn't KNOW me and my physical problems.That is why I have a master instructor. This particular kid is a "know it all" and has a motor mouth. There is a rule in our school which has validity. A white belt does not tell a yellow belt how to do something on up the line. There is a reason for this. Because very likely BAD information is worse than none. That is why in Taekwondo, we wait until we are black belts, have passed a test of standards so we can teach correctly or since we are imperfect, to the best of our educated knowledge. I would never offer criticism/advice if I wasn't pretty sure it was good advice. I would NEVER offer criticism to a higher belt – only two in our school – unless asked. He or she has reached a level of understanding, who am I to say I know better. THAT would be pride and ignorance talking. I told him to sit down. He, like some other precocious teens, these days needs to learn humility.

 

[Aegis]

Information should go both ways. If you have to be a higher grade to correct something, there's never going to be much new information or ideas entering the system. In the style I do, if you spot something being done wrong, you help correct it. There's mutual respect between everyone on the mat, but even if someone suggests something stupid they get listened to and calmly told why that's not the way it's done.

The exact quote I had the trouble with was: "On the other hand, nothing annoys me more than a lower rank telling me, a black belt, unasked too, what he thinks is wrong with my kick". It made you sound as though you meant that no-one should dare question a black belt's technique. If that's not what you're really like I apologise, but it's the "no-one lower than me can have anything useful to add" mentality that leads to closed-mindedness in martial arts.

 

[TigerWoman]

Information should go both ways. If you have to be a higher grade to correct something, there's never going to be much new information or ideas entering the system. In the style I do, if you spot something being done wrong, you help correct it. There's mutual respect between everyone on the mat, but even if someone suggests something stupid they get listened to and calmly told why that's not the way it's done.

Apology accepted. "New information and ideas entering the system" of taekwondo do not come directly from lower belts. Or directly from black belts either for that matter if we are students in his school. When we have new ideas that are different from what has been taught, before it is introduced into the "system" it is brought to the attention of the master instructor - it is his school. There has to be a continuity of teaching.

A relatively new person, a student in Taekwondo does not dictate doctrine. I have seen changes but not by lower belts. One time a student in indonesian arts came in while he was an exchange student, but he had to adapt to our style. For ex: After catching my leg and making me fall on the mat (catching is a technique which in TKD we don't do) he was told not to by me and the master. Yes, there is an exchange of new information which results in change but it is between the master and the student.

A lower belt who has just learned a kick is probably not as proficient in it as a black belt. If a lower belt were to tell me my kick was a wheel kick instead of a snap, I would probably think about it and say you're right (or wrong) IF it was in his knowledge level. And that is what I did. But not if someone walked up to me and said a criticism that couldn't begin to be applied and wouldn't take a "no that is not in the picture" I calmly tell him to go "sit down". That's about respect too. No, as a colored belt, I would have never have been so arrogant to consider questioning a black belt's technique. And as I said before there is a reason for it. Colored belts don't teach. Colored belts CAN offer criticism/help to a lower belt if it is respectful. But I learned real fast when I was "helped" that the "information" wasn't reliable. Hence, that is why only black belts teach.