Pulling Rank

[KenpoGirl]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
As to carrying bags, etc...I have to disagree...but within certain parameters.

Visiting instructor, I'll help out. I've picked up instructors at airports and hotels, driven them to dinner, etc.

If mine are preparing for a seminar or something, I'll help carry a bag to the truck. If I'm around and they need a hand with something, and I can, I will help out.

Case in point, at the recent WMAA camp, at any given time I had at least a few of the instructors or seniors in my wagon. It just made sence since I can transport a large group to do so.

I see nothing wrong with that as well. As long as it's something your want to do to show respect and kindness. I would and have done that myself.

What I'm talking about is if the instructor expects you to carry it as it stands there until someone picks it up and takes it away when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.

Now before I get some people grumbling at me, I will add a disclaimer and say I have not to date been required to do anything like this, but I HAVE talked to several people who have experienced this so I thought I'd see what peoples opinion are.

Dot
:asian:

BTW, thanks for all the great replies, keep them coming.

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl

Now before I get some people grumbling at me, I will add a disclaimer and say I have not to date been required to do anything like this, but I HAVE talked to several people who have experienced this so I thought I'd see what peoples opionion are.

Dot
:asian:

BTW, thanks for all the great replies, keep them coming.

I've heard this too I think the problem is they will tolerate it because they're learning from someone famous or senior in thier system. It gives them bragging rights so they put up with it some people wise up and move along. Others are happy being puppets.

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by KenpoGirl
The question is......... Does or should rank apply when outside of the Studio/School/Dojo etc...? (i.e. Doing jobs outside of the school for your instructor as a requirement on top of tuition paid; or waiting for the senior instructor to eat first at a restaurant, or sitting by rank at a restaurant, white belts sitting furthest way etc...)

Hell, no! I'll treat everyone alike outside the dojo. The last function I went to (about two weeks ago) where my instructor was present, I called him by his name, got a kiss on the cheek and accepted a free drink.

As for ranking up at a restaurant, no way. Hopefully everyone is friendly and respectful anyway. If I am in street clothes still and my instructor wants a gatorade from next door, I'll get it- he pays.

 

[karatekid1975]

My school is laid back anyways (except for the training, that is). In training, I address my instructors has Ms, Mr, or Master. We only bow in and out of class, not to each other (as a greeting). I have no idea why, but it's their way, I guess. If I saw one of them outside of the dojang, I'd say their first name (if I know it). I'd give them a hand shake and a smile. They don't mind.

I once saw my master instructor from my TSD dojang outside of the dojang, and I called him Master B. He yelled at me (well not mean yelling, it was more of a whisper LOL), because he was embarrassed LOL. It was in a crowded convenient (sp?) store. So ever since, I called him by his first name and have him a good ol' hand shake outside the dojang. He is a regular guy when he's in street clothes. And he would rather we treat him like that outside of the school. And he was a 4th dan at the time.

 

[KennethKu]

Based on my humble knowledge in eastern culture and value:

The measurement of the character of a superior is based on how he/she demands to be treated/recognized by his/her students. The more picky/strick he/she is, the bigger JERK he/she actually is. The genuine superior is one who is always benevolent towards his/her students. He/she would never pull rank nor demand adherent to protocol.

 

[dearnis.com]

To bad for those who can't learn from a friend.
I actually push these guys and gals harder because I care about them.

 

[jdmills]

My first instructor was (and still is) my oldest friend. I'm 40 and I've known him for about 38 years. Somehow, I just couldn't bring myself to call him "Mr. Van Trieste" but that certainly doesn't diminish the respect that I have for him.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have my students carry the bag of my instructor and the head of the system. When I first started learning it was policy that senior instructors where offered this by the lower ranks. Sometime it is accepted sometimes not.
I also have at least one student at the beck and call of my instructor and the head of the system ( when he is in town) and I have a student stand or sit behind them (when possible) to be their "gofeer"
It's the way I was brought up in the arts I have passed it on to my students
My instructor is my instructor at all times not just when in the school. As I say everyday" Sikaran is my way of life". It is not just an hour a day of practice it is part of my being and the belifes and thought patterns I have learned in the Martial Arts are a part of me at all times.
these are my humble thoughts on the matter only
tshadowchaser:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Running around being someones lackey is ridiculous. Sitting in a restaurant by pecking order is ridiculous. This is the type of nonsense that gives traditional martial arts a bad name.

Respect is important. When I was growing up we called all adults Mr. x or Mrs. x or Miss y. This is how we showed respect. Kids don't usually do that anymore.

Inside many dojos, this Mr./Ms. formality is a way to show respect. But it really isn't necessary. Do you think any of us would respect Mr. Ed Parker less if he asked us to call him "Ed" rather than "Mr. Parker?" Would you respect your "Sensei" or "Sifu" less if you called him by his first name? I don't think so.

I recently started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There is a tremendous amount of respect for instructors and between students--just as much as any of the Traditional Martial Arts schools I've attended. But there isn't any of the bowing, kneeling, or kow-towing of the Traditional arts. We call each other by first name or by nickname. Lots of respect, lots of love, lots of cameradie; No nonsense. It is really refreshing.

 

[RCastillo]

I've been through all the things that have been mentioned, and I have mixed feelings about some of it.

But I will say this for myself. I prefer to be called by my first name, it's not necessary for you to do anything special for me. But, I will do it for you. I'm just like you, and I have my strengths, and weaknesses.

I'm just a teacher, nothing more.:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
I have my students carry the bag of my instructor and the head of the system. When I first started learning it was policy that senior instructors where offered this by the lower ranks. Sometime it is accepted sometimes not.
I also have at least one student at the beck and call of my instructor and the head of the system ( when he is in town) and I have a student stand or sit behind them (when possible) to be their "gofeer"
It's the way I was brought up in the arts I have passed it on to my students
My instructor is my instructor at all times not just when in the school. As I say everyday" Sikaran is my way of life". It is not just an hour a day of practice it is part of my being and the belifes and thought patterns I have learned in the Martial Arts are a part of me at all times.
these are my humble thoughts on the matter only
tshadowchaser:asian:

Would you treat all your teachers from K-12 to college, the same way?

 

[jdmills]

I had professors in law school that I called "professor" and a few that I called by their first name. Surprisingly, as I look back, I respect the ones that I called by their first name more.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Running around being someones lackey is ridiculous. Sitting in a restaurant by pecking order is ridiculous. This is the type of nonsense that gives traditional martial arts a bad name.

Respect is important. When I was growing up we called all adults Mr. x or Mrs. x or Miss y. This is how we showed respect. Kids don't usually do that anymore.

Inside many dojos, this Mr./Ms. formality is a way to show respect. But it really isn't necessary. Do you think any of us would respect Mr. Ed Parker less if he asked us to call him "Ed" rather than "Mr. Parker?" Would you respect your "Sensei" or "Sifu" less if you called him by his first name? I don't think so.

I recently started Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. There is a tremendous amount of respect for instructors and between students--just as much as any of the Traditional Martial Arts schools I've attended. But there isn't any of the bowing, kneeling, or kow-towing of the Traditional arts. We call each other by first name or by nickname. Lots of respect, lots of love, lots of cameradie; No nonsense. It is really refreshing.

Exactly. A lot of the "instructors" are simply on an ego trip.

 

[KenpoDragon]

Well in the classroom, I am Sensei, out of the classroom, I go by my first name. Sometimes it is hard for my students to remember that, but after 20 or 30 push-ups they remember. I expect the same respect outside of the classroom, but I don't go as far as telling them that they have to do favors for me, or wait until I eat until they can eat, that would be silly. That's just my opinion though.

:asian:

 

[redfang]

I train at a small kenpo/ shootfighting school. Everyone pretty much refers to each other by their first name. My wife and I occasionally go out socially with the instructors and a few other students and it is very casual. Despite this, everyone demonstrates a great deal of courtesy and respect for one another. (Even when busting each other's cajones, which happens a lot too.)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Would you treat all your teachers from K-12 to college, the same way?

Personally, it depends.

I recently ran into a teacher from 7th grade...I did address him as "Mr.". He then said to call him by his first name. I just didn't presume now that its 20 yrs later that I had the 'right'.

Some instructors will always be 'mater' and 'professor' and 'sensei'. Both on and off the floor. You don't switch to a first name basis with your doctor once you walk out of the office right?

In some systems, it is expected that the juniors will 'work' for the seniors. I remember reading 1 such story about training in Japan where the students would clean the dojo daily as part of their training.

I see nothing wrong with ensuring that someone is available to assist a visiting master. I know at the sci-fi and anime cons I goto there is usually at least 1 person assigned to each guest. It just makes sence to me.

Now, the hero worship bits, that I disagree with...but, you'll find that in any group I think. MartialArts, fandom, amway.

 

[Wmarden]

Here is what my Sensei told me. On the mat or in the dojo he is sensei. Outside that door he is Bill.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think that Kaith preety much answered the question for me.
I palce a person near or behind them because 1 I came into the arts durring a time when such things where done 2 I feel that as my instructor or the head of the system they deserve a little special treatment
Being the person behind the instructor is a two fold experence. On the one hand you are a gofer and a bodyguard. On the other you learn mountians of stuff you might not otherwise learn by being nearby when you instructor has disscussions with other high ranking people. He/she may also take time to point out things to you and explain certian techniques, forms, history lines that you would not know if he did not tell you.
As for my academic teachers they would still be Mr., Mrs., or Miss even after all these years and yes I would offer to carry theit books or breifcase for them. They where my senior in life and I was taught to respect that.
I respect those who have not been in this type of situation and those who do not do such things. We all came into the arts at different times and in different circumstances. Each of us has his own learning process.
tshadowchaser:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Kaith: Your example of the Doctor is an interesting one. My take on it is very different.

At my school, everyone is assigned an instrucor and gets a weekly private lesson. One of my private-lesson Black Belt students is a Doctor. My wife was a Blue Belt. Her private-lesson instructor was this same Black Belt Doctor. He was also her physician. He is also one of our best friends.

On the mat, he is "Mr. x"
In the Dr.'s office he is is "Dr. x"
On social occasions, we call each other by first name.

 

[Nightingale]

personally, I don't call a black belt by their first name unless I'm invited to do so, no matter the situation. For example, when I first met Clyde, he told me to call him Clyde. So that's what I call him. However, unless he'd told me that, he'd be Mr. O'Brient until I was told otherwise. Better to err on the side of caution than to offend.

Even if I've been invited to use a black belt's first name, on the mat they're always "sir/ma'am" or "mr/ms" unless I'm specifically told that first names are okay in class.