Pulling Rank

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Personally, it depends.

I recently ran into a teacher from 7th grade...I did address him as "Mr.". He then said to call him by his first name. I just didn't presume now that its 20 yrs later that I had the 'right'.

Some instructors will always be 'mater' and 'professor' and 'sensei'. Both on and off the floor. You don't switch to a first name basis with your doctor once you walk out of the office right?

In some systems, it is expected that the juniors will 'work' for the seniors. I remember reading 1 such story about training in Japan where the students would clean the dojo daily as part of their training.

I see nothing wrong with ensuring that someone is available to assist a visiting master. I know at the sci-fi and anime cons I goto there is usually at least 1 person assigned to each guest. It just makes sence to me.

Now, the hero worship bits, that I disagree with...but, you'll find that in any group I think. MartialArts, fandom, amway.

I understand that. But, I am not talking about basic courtesy and protocol. That is expected in a polite society. What I have a problem with is some egoistical martial art instructors tend to put themselve on a pedestal and demand students to pay tribute and worship. And foolishly, some people buy into that bullcrap and bow down to their instructors as if they are in the presence of the almighty. That is ridiculous. You don't treat your golf instructors that way. You don't treat your football coaches that way. You don't treat your personal trainers that way. You don't treat any other instructors/teachers that way. But when it comes to the guys who teach martial art, why should people suddenly time warped into the jurassic era?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I understand that. But, I am not talking about basic courtesy and protocol. That is expected in a polite society. What I have a problem with is some egoistical martial art instructors tend to put themselve on a pedestal and demand students to pay tribute and worship. And foolishly, some people buy into that bullcrap and bow down to their instructors as if they are in the presence of the almighty. That is ridiculous. You don't treat your golf instructors that way. You don't treat your football coaches that way. You don't treat your personal trainers that way. You don't treat any other instructors/teachers that way. But when it comes to the guys who teach martial art, why should people suddenly time warped into the jurassic era?

I'll agree that some people do tend to think themslefs as better than everyone else or they think they know more, or are better qualified to judge what is correct or incorrect. I do things the way I do because I respect the man/men/women, and I follow a tradition that was handed down to me. If I didn't like it or think it was the correct thing to do I'd find a different art to study. By the way I doubt my golf instructor could put me in the hospital with one well placewd punch or kick, I know damn well my Martial Arts instructor can. BUt thatis not the reason I do as I do it is because I choose to.
Much of the old way of doing for your instructor outside of the school has passed into the history of the arts. At times gone by there where "house students" these individuals where ,for lack of a better term , servents (almost slaves) of the instructor. For there services they recieved food, lodgeing, and instruction. They also where privy to many conversations and techniques that others where not. Remember if you stand behind a man a certian amount of trust is placed in you .
I belive in keeping many of the traditions I came into the arts with others do not that is most certianly there right. I just dont attack other who belive in doing it differently

 

[Nightingale]

my karate instructors (and black belts in general) get the same respect from me that one of my college professors or their colleagues would get. Basically, don't use the first name unless they say its okay, and follow the usual classroom protocol.

 

[dearnis.com]

At times gone by there where "house students" these individuals where ,for lack of a better term , servents (almost slaves) of the instructor.

Exactly. But the instructor did have to care for, feed, and clothe these students.
I teach very selfishly with one goal; to train training partners. And I really don't want training partners I don't like to be around. So I can live well without house students, customers, or anyone else who feels compelled to throw title at me, especially off the mat.
Chad

 

[MartialArtist]

Like I said before, I will always call certain people by their title. No exceptions, casual or otherwise. As for the bow down to me, do all my chores, fetch me water, vacuum my house... It's nothing for me to worry about, because I would never call people like that by their title in the first place. The good leaders are the ones who put in as much if not more work than you, and they are the people who do deserve to be called by their title.

There are a few exceptions. If the president of the US came to my house, then I would call him "Mr. President" no matter what he does. But since no big-name influential guy has ever come to my house, I have one less thing to worry about.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
..... I belive in keeping many of the traditions I came into the arts with others do not that is most certianly there right. I just dont attack other who belive in doing it differently....

This is a free country. If grown men see fit to be their masters' company clerks, they are certainly free to do so. If grown men want to elevate someone to the pedestal and worship, they are certainly free to do so. None of that is any of my business. Certainly not worth my attacking them for demeaning themselves. I was merely pointing out the idiosyncracy of it.

 

[ryansaunders]

the rules of a dojo setting dont apply to the streets, when in a dojo you call your instructor sensai or sir, but outside on the streets u simply address your instructor by their given names, this i know because i have been corrected upon by another instructor, this instructor also told me that u should never bow in public because this makes for a target. Grades shouldnt come into effect when out a group. Me and my instructor have a completey diffrent kind of relationship when in the dojo, he insists that his students call him sensai, but ive known my instructor prior, because i used to work for him and he still now insists upon me calling him by his first name, i know this comes down to personal choice with instructors:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

OK I really have to ask. Who is putting whom on a pedestal and worshiping ?
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they worship their instructor. Respect, maybe, treat them as an instructor at all times not as a friend, maybe, but worship, I think not.
These people are people not gods.

Sorry I am not friends with my students, we dont go drinking togeather, we might eat togeather once in a while but I buy. WE lead different life styles and do not work at the same place. We have a 20+ or so difference in age give or take depending on the person. The music I listen to most likely is not what they listen to. The common ground we have is the art I teach. To them the war I was in is history to me its a memory. Give me another 10 years and I may have a different answere some of them may be my friends by then.

When I am in the pressence of my instructor or the head of my system I am honored to be there and I dont think myslef any less a person for respecting them for what they are to me.

If I studied with a friend I would most likely do as many have stated In class he would be MR. or Sir or what ever title the system required and outside we would use our commen names. That is because we would have a common friendship and a martial relationship with the outside friendship perhaps comeing befor I ever studied

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
These people are people not gods.

But some like to be treated as such. You're right though .. it all
boils down to personal opinion and what each can do willingly.
Personally, if I was ORDERED to go get a b.b's bag and that's the
S.O.P. ... and had to open doors for him/her, and call them by
some wicked title .... I wouldn't be their student.

 

[Jill666]

And yes, I call both my dentist and my physician by their first names outside the office. I also have their cell/home phone numbers- because I have doctors that care about their patients and see themselves as someone who works with the patient toward a certain goal, not someone who has something they will dole out if paid and revered enough.

But maybe that just me.

As for being adressed as Mrs. by a lower ranking student just because I have a black belt :erg: I wouldn't know what to do if that ever happened!

 

[7starmantis]

There is a beginner student at my school who everytime he sees me addresses me a sir. Not sir Adam, or Adam sir, strictly sir. "Hello, sir" , "How are you sir?". That kind of thing. I stopped him and told him that I'm not even his instructor, just to call me Adam. He said that I should be willing to accept his simple way of showing respect to me. Kind of made me think. We have become closer out of class and he is down to just a bow and then calling me by my first name, but I don't see any reason to steal from him the enjoyment of showing respect, even if it makes me uncomfortable. My instructor is strictly sifu to me. It just shows respect and is actually shorter to say than his name! When we go out, Sifus are not supposed to drive, also Sifu is never to pay for his own meal. Now, living in 2003 that doesn't happen, we try to do the things we can, if there are several of us he might let us pay for his meal, otherwise he will fightt us for the check. I think its all about your heart. If your trying to show respect but don't have the money to pay for him, is that not still showing respect? Just for us to offer to pay his check is enough. I think its a personal thing, I greet him outside of class as Sifu, but we can crack jokes and laugh and do whatever. In class is different because I work at my school and we are examples, its more formal in class, but even then, our formality would be considered disrespect to some.

7sm

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
OK I really have to ask. Who is putting whom on a pedestal and worshiping ?
I don't recall anyone in this thread saying they worship their instructor. Respect, maybe, treat them as an instructor at all times not as a friend, maybe, but worship, I think not.
These people are people not gods.
...

Assuming you were talking to me, my reference was not directed at any specific person on this thread. I don't know who here is an instructor instead of a student. Don't really care to know either.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
To bad for those who can't learn from a friend.
I actually push these guys and gals harder because I care about them.

I never said anything about caring...

I know my instructor cares about me and what happens to me.
We share a bond, as teacher and student. It is one of love and respect.
Though I must admit, I am in total awe of him.

Having said that though, much as I would love to be his friend, I still prefer the distance between us so that I am forced to stretch.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Of course, there was the time when I trained in American Kenpo. There was a group of us had gathered at the home of one of the senior students, for some informal training and a bit of a chat.

We were sitting eating buiscuts and drinking coffee. I was giving one of the brown belts a hard time because his attendance had dropped off recently. He made a comment about respecting senior rank.

The senior student, who happened to be the highest ranked in school and also the owner of the house, made the comment that rank doesn't count outside of class.

Our instructor looked at him and asked, "Are you sure about that?" as he took the buiscut from his hand and put it in his own mouth.

His response, "Well I could be wrong....."

--Dave

 

[mtabone]

Now that is a great story D.Cobb


I will have to remember that one...






Michael Tabone

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Kirk
If the people who outranked me expected to be able to make
me do pushups, or wait until they decide to eat, or be errand
boy for them or anything else outside of the classroom, that'd be
the day I stop being a student there. I call my instructor "Mr
Abernathy" at all times, and he's never said to do otherwise.
But if a bunch of us are going out to dinner, out for drinks, or
whatever outside of the school, I'll eat when I decide to eat.
They can carry their own equipment to and from their vehicles,
they're adults, fully capable. I didn't sign up to learn kenpo so
I could be somebody's lacky.

Kirk, I think you're missing the point. I'm an American too, and I'm not about to be a lacky to anyone either. In addition, I'm not into kissing anyone's ***. However, I do think our instuctors do merit respect outside the dojang/dojo.

Whenever I see my master instructor in public I show him his due respect because he deserves it. He's teaching me his eastern Art, and he doesn't make me pound out 20 pushups up on the spot when I see him outside the dojang either.

He knows I've learned to respect him for what he has thaught me, and he respects me because I've been so dedicated and so hard core about trying to learn about what he's teaching us... :asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
Kirk, I think you're missing the point. I'm an American too, and I'm not about to be a lacky to anyone either. In addition, I'm not into kissing anyone's ***. However, I do think our instuctors do merit respect outside the dojang/dojo.

Whenever I see my master instructor in public I show him his due respect because he deserves it. He's teaching me his eastern Art, and he doesn't make me pound out 20 pushups up on the spot when I see him outside the dojang either.

He knows I've learned to respect him for what he has thaught me, and he respects me because I've been so dedicated and so hard core about trying to learn about what he's teaching us... :asian:

There are quite a few ma-ists that I've talked to on a personal
level where being a lackey, and getting "punished" by their
"master" does happen.

 

[bob919]

same respect but it should not be a case of people being treated as inferior because of their rank

 

[tonbo]

I have great respect for the owner/head instructor of our school. He is a fun guy to hang out with, as well as an exceptional martial artist. He is also a great mentor.....all while being very humble and modest.

A couple of weeks ago, he and I met for dinner after class to discuss my managing one of our school locations. We had a good dinner, and, when the check came, I grabbed it before he could. He looked at me and said, "No, I'm getting this one." I argued, saying I would feel better if he would let me get it. He let in with the, "I asked *you* to dinner, so *I* need to pay." I responded with, "Yeah, but I'll feel insulted if you don't let me pay". His counter? "I already feel insulted. You should let me pay."

Well, we argued (good-naturedly!) back and forth, and I wrote out the check, thinking all was finalized. My instructor kept saying, "You realize that won't work.". No, I thought, I had him on this one......

The waiter came to get the bill; as he did, my instructor got up and asked him if he had any additional napkins, so he could wipe up a small spill of his water. The waiter nodded, and reached over to another table (empty) to get a couple. For that brief moment, I looked away....maybe a second at the most....and my instructor had grabbed the bill and had his credit card in hand. He handed both to the waiter and smiled. I tried to hand the waiter my check, saying I was paying for the dinner, but my instructor waved me off, saying to the waiter, "No, I've got it. He'll get the next one.". As he sat down again, my instructor just smiled. He said, "Next time that you ask *me* to dinner, *you* can pick up the check".

Fine. He won that one. But next time.....

Anyway, the point to this is that, despite being out of the school, I still have *respect* for my instructor. I am happy to pay for his dinner, as I would with any other of my friends; however, I don't feel a mindless-lackey type need to go wash his car or clean his house or anything like that.

I also gotta respect his speed and deception. He was DAMN fast in getting that ticket away from me. 'Course, I *knew* he was fast, after having sparred him for years.....:rofl:

Peace--

 

[Kirk]

Great story tonbo!