Proud To Be An American

[Blotan Hunka]

We should have rolled through Afghanistan and right into Pakistan IMO. Saddam got what was coming to him and it should have been done sooner IMO as he was still under a cease fire from the last war anyway. But thats just my 2 cents.

 

[Elayna]

Thanks for the Insults guys. Really appreciate it. *rolling eyes*.
You have made my point for me. That instead of standing together on the things we agree on, you flame people, insult them and so much more on the things you disagree on.

And by me saying that about clinton all it shows is that I dont like people who cheat on their spouses. Do you? And as far as him being dumb, i thought it was dumb to cheat on his wife, and to raise the taxes as much as he did. Now anything else I cant say for sure. At that time other then his cheating and the high taxes I was paying attention. I didnt know what to believe. Still dont. Like Ive said before. I believe my eyes, my feelings and the people I trust around me and their opinions.

Now as far as being a conservative, in alot of ways I am, and In alot of ways Im not. I believe in 2 way streets and compromise and 100 percent the betterment of this country. And I support the people of this country. I base alot on character. Not just policies, but character of a man or women. Because when their policies fail thats what they have to lean back on, is their morals and character. So sure shoot me for that. But if you dont care about morals and character then what do you care about?

So I hope instead of bashing me for what we disagree on that we can find something to agree on. Or will you yet again side-step my point.
I dont care if you like clinton or gore or whoever...so what. All I care about is that you try to make the effort to hear my views as I want to hear yours. I have already agreed to several of your points because I am humble enough to do so. However I am also proud enough to stand my ground as you should be in some situations.
But if we are every going to make this country better as a whole, ALL the people have to stand together and make it better. Not agreeing on everything but at least finding middle ground.
I know easier said then done. But once we start trying it will get done.

So stop insulting me and hating me for not agreeing. I may have different views and you may not like them. FINE. Get over it and try to start working with me. Working with other people.

I still havent seen any ideas of how to make this country better yet. The election is a good place to start definatly. But what else? Letters? Phone calls? Writing articles? Calling radio stations? Teaching your kids to find middle ground? Teaching people around you to work together instead of fighting with each other?
What are you doing other then insulting and complaining to help?

Me I teach my son. I talk with my friends. I post on forums. I try to make a difference in the small ways. I know its not alot, but Im only one person and in a country with millions and billions....well, you get the picture.

So...lets see ify ou can get past insulting and actually try to work with people. That is a challenge for all of you!!!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Thanks for the Insults guys. Really appreciate it. *rolling eyes*.

You have made my point for me. That instead of standing together on the things we agree on, you flame people, insult them and so much more on the things you disagree on.


So stop insulting me and hating me for not agreeing. I may have different views and you may not like them. FINE. Get over it and try to start working with me. Working with other people.

Nobody had flamed you, insulted your, or hated you. You began a discussion that has proven to be a hot topic of debate, with some pretty polarized positions. People have disagreed with you and have given their reasons why, and others have agreed with you and given their reasons why. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are flaming you, insulting you, or hating you. It ain't personal, unless you make it so.

Given the volatility of this topic, I'd say the discussion has remained remarkably polite.

 

[Elayna]

To me, to make that statement that Clinton was 'just dumb' is kind of like arguing the 'grass is blue'. But, I guess they do give out Rhodes Scholarships pretty easily these days, don't they?

Maybe its just me but that sounds like an insult. And yes I do believe that this topic has stayed very poilite and decent.
I Thank You all for that, really.

But you are right, I should not take it too personally. My bad.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

We should have rolled through Afghanistan and right into Pakistan IMO. Saddam got what was coming to him and it should have been done sooner IMO as he was still under a cease fire from the last war anyway. But thats just my 2 cents.

If, years ago, we would have supported the Kurds and others in the country when we called upon them to overthrow Hussein, it would have saved a lot trouble and American lives.

Jeff

 

[Flying Crane]

Maybe its just me but that sounds like an insult. And yes I do believe that this topic has stayed very poilite and decent.
I Thank You all for that, really.

But you are right, I should not take it too personally. My bad.

well, this is a topic with some very strong feelings. I don't think that comment was meant as a personal attack on you. Just expressing a different viewpoint in a strong way, that's all.

 

[Elayna]

well, this is a topic with some very strong feelings. I don't think that comment was meant as a personal attack on you. Just expressing a different viewpoint in a strong way, that's all.

No worries. I understand. I definatly should not have taken it so personally. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Flying Crane]

If, years ago, we would have supported the Kurds and others in the country when we called upon them to overthrow Hussein, it would have saved a lot trouble and American lives.

Jeff

Regime change starts at home. It doesn't happen successfully when rammed thru the barrels of foreign guns. That seems to be a lesson nobody wants to acknowledge.

We seem to think we can just roll on into a country, shoot the place up and tell them how to do things from there on out. But nobody is going to accept that method.

As much as I oppose the Bush administration, I would never accept it if the Germans, French, Canadians, Mexicans, Venezuelans, Cubans, Chinese and New Zealanders decided to form a coalition to invade the US, topple the Bush regime and install their version of government that they think is best for us. If that happened, I can guarantee that you and I and a whole lot of others here would take up arms to fight the invaders and kick them out of our country. We would use every single sneaky guerrilla tactic that we could think of, and yes, we might even reach the point of embracing suicide bombings if it got bad enough. This is our home, after all, and we got no other.

And I can promise you, those who acted in cooperation with the occupying forces, and who tried to be part of the new government installed by the occupiers, would find themselves targeted by us as well. We would have a civil war the likes of which is going on right now in Iraq. While we thought of ourselves as "Freedom Fighters", I am sure the occupying forces would label us "Insurgents", and use every language technique possible to make us look like illegitimates and terrorists, to justify their occupation.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If, years ago, we would have supported the Kurds and others in the country when we called upon them to overthrow Hussein, it would have saved a lot trouble and American lives.

Jeff

True. true.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Regime change starts at home. It doesn't happen successfully when rammed thru the barrels of foreign guns. That seems to be a lesson nobody wants to acknowledge.

We seem to think we can just roll on into a country, shoot the place up and tell them how to do things from there on out. But nobody is going to accept that method.

As much as I oppose the Bush administration, I would never accept it if the Germans, French, Canadians, Mexicans, Venezuelans, Cubans, Chinese and New Zealanders decided to form a coalition to invade the US, topple the Bush regime and install their version of government that they think is best for us. If that happened, I can guarantee that you and I and a whole lot of others here would take up arms to fight the invaders and kick them out of our country. We would use every single sneaky guerrilla tactic that we could think of, and yes, we might even reach the point of embracing suicide bombings if it got bad enough. This is our home, after all, and we got no other.

And I can promise you, those who acted in cooperation with the occupying forces, and who tried to be part of the new government installed by the occupiers, would find themselves targeted by us as well. We would have a civil war the likes of which is going on right now in Iraq. While we thought of ourselves as "Freedom Fighters", I am sure the occupying forces would label us "Insurgents", and use every language technique possible to make us look like illegitimates and terrorists, to justify their occupation.

After we pushed Hitler back across the Rhine should we have stopped? And if we had how much more crap from him should we have tolerated?

 

[michaeledward]

Maybe its just me but that sounds like an insult. And yes I do believe that this topic has stayed very poilite and decent.
I Thank You all for that, really.

But you are right, I should not take it too personally. My bad.

You have made an assertion, which I have challenged.

I have defended my position in that former President Clinton received a Rhodes Scholarship. I believe that approximately 24 students a year are granted this award. They tend to given to some of the brightest college seniors in the country, and have been for a century.

If you wish to defend your assertion that President Clinton is "just dumb", step right up.

---

As for your defense ... .

What Mr. and Mrs. Clinton do in their private lives is none of my business. If Mrs. Clinton chooses to forgive her husband for indiscretions, it is, should be, and remains, between them.

Next, President Clinton did not raise taxes. Only the House of Representatives has the ability within our Constitution to raise taxes. They are directly elected every two years. They are the closest elected officials to the citizenry, so if taxes are raised, your Congressman is accountable to you sooner than any other federal official.

But, that being said - that the Federal budget came into balance during President Clinton's term - that the nation became fiscally responsible - can be described accurately in many ways. I do not believe that fiscal responsibility can be described as 'dumb'. But if you care to try, please do.

Oh, and by the way, I don't believe I have made any statements about my personal opinions concering Mr. Clinton. I believe the statements here are independent of personal opinion.

That instead of standing together on the things we agree on,

I do not agree on anything in your initial premise. And the more the conversation goes on, the less I agree with.

This war is wrong. It was launched through lies from our highest elected officials. I believe our military soldiers have confused their duty to the oaths they swore, and their duty to their superiors.

I believe the only way to support the military is to call for the immediate redeployment from Iraq. Our military are targets for the insurgents; nothing else. The military is being broken by this effort - an effort I have called illegal.

President Bush should be impeached for lying to the American public.

Further you assailed over 1 billion religous followers with your attacks on Muslems and Islam. Completely ignoring that a 'Christian' nation invaded an 'Islamic (albeit Secular) nation'.

 

[OUMoose]

After we pushed Hitler back across the Rhine should we have stopped? And if we had how much more crap from him should we have tolerated?

What has that got to do with anything involving the conflicts today, other than some emotional "rousing"? You tell me, how many terrorists cells have we "pushed back" across some geographic boundary? Oh right, there isn't a boundary anymore to push across, nor is there a specific or recognizable enemy. The only bearing Nazism has on today's world is the neo-fascism that's fed over the airwaves as "news". Unfortunately, that comes from both sides of the fence this time.

I guess one of the differences you could point out is that Hitler was a fantastic public speaker. Bush is... well... not. :idunno:

 

[Elayna]

Michael,

As far as the smartness of Mr.Clinton, that can be debatable. Maybe not through book smarts, as he was. But through "street" smarts yes. I will not get into it though, as our definitions are most likely very different and that is not the point of my thread.

Now as far as the quote you put from me I dont understand it as that has a comma at the end of it so therefore you either didnt complete it or you are taking out of context, which we all know is not a proper way to prove anything. So please elaborate more on what you were meaning by that particular quote from me.

Also as far as "assailing" 1 billion Muslim and Islamic people. If you go back and look in my first post I specifically state that I in new way believe that all Muslims felt the same way. I also sated
P.S. I 100 percent believe not every Muslim hates america.

I made sure to state that the "Muslim Terrorists" as I see them seperate then the everyday "Muslim" person walking the street.
Just as we hear make sure and state that a "Catholic Priest" assaulted a young boy. It is the same difference. Does not mean it is and isults to "Catholics" it is just a statement.
I went to school with several Muslim people. They were very nice and we were very close friends until I moved away with my parents. I also have great respect for the poetry that can be found in the Koran. Poetry used figurativly.

As far as Mr.Clinton and his love life being his business, it has long been known that when you are the President of any country your business whether personal or not is the business of the country that you are running. I personally do not want someone that cheats on their spouse as the leader of my nation. But that situation is long dead. Im over it.
As far as the taxes things all I know is that I never heard Clinton disagreeing with taxes. That may not be a good enough reason for you for me to think badly enough for him, but because of those tax raises it made it very difficult for my family and many other families to live. Very hard.
So sorry if you dont like my reasonings, but they are mine.
Im not asking you to agree with me.
And this will be the last time that I repeat that.
So I hope you take the point.
State your point of view. But I dont think it is right to tell people that they are wrong to think the way they thing, because Im pretty sure there are those out there that think the same thing about you.
And yet that is my point.
We will disagree. We will agree to disagree. But even when you said
***in your defense....
you gave nothing that helped defend my point of view.

So when will we stop bickering and start trying to find common ground.

I conceed that the government should only have a minimal place in the peoples lives. I agree with that. I think we should always question our government. I think that once our people have made it to where the Iraq people can do ok on their own that they should leave. I dont think invasion is always then answer unless really really neccessary.
I think the U.S. has alot of cleaning up to do that should start on our own soil first.

Those are only a few things that Im not sure if we agree on, but I hope it will give us a start.
It only takes a few to start trying to agree to start a domino affect.
Im sorry if you dont like me for whatever reason. But I like you even if I think you can be a pain in the *** sometimes. I see that as a good quality in small doses. LOL

Anyways....you all have a good night. And I hope my point has been made and heard somewhere.

 

[crushing]

But, that being said - that the Federal budget came into balance during President Clinton's term - that the nation became fiscally responsible - can be described accurately in many ways. I do not believe that fiscal responsibility can be described as 'dumb'. But if you care to try, please do.

It's unfortunate that the budgets didn't meet the actual spending and the debt continued to skyrocket. The tech bubble did help until it burst and the economic growth started to slow in 1999 and the markets started there decline in 2000 leading to the recession.

http://www.toptips.com/debt_history.htm

09/28/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32

The debt continues to grow. It looks like it will pass $8,500,000,000,000 tonight based on the debt clock at the same site referenced above.

 

[matt.m]

Wow, I served from 92-97. I bet that means that I know a lot of Clinton's actions concerning foreign policy. Sorry, even though I was put in harms way (Haiti, Liberia, Tunisia, Albania, Israel) it was for more or less humanitarian reasons.

Consider this: A man is not worthy of trust or running the country because of extra marital affairs. Anyone heard of John F. Kennedy? However, it is ok to go on shaky intel into war.

I seem to remember in the 90's if you lost your job you could find another one rather quickly. Not only that, but american wages along with wage increases stayed steady with inflation and at times outpaced it.

Sorry, but the way the Republican party has been during the Bush Admin. just is a sore spot with me.

 

[michaeledward]

Michael,

As far as the smartness of Mr.Clinton, that can be debatable. Maybe not through book smarts, as he was. But through "street" smarts yes. I will not get into it though, as our definitions are most likely very different and that is not the point of my thread.

Now as far as the quote you put from me I dont understand it as that has a comma at the end of it so therefore you either didnt complete it or you are taking out of context, which we all know is not a proper way to prove anything. So please elaborate more on what you were meaning by that particular quote from me.

Also as far as "assailing" 1 billion Muslim and Islamic people. If you go back and look in my first post I specifically state that I in new way believe that all Muslims felt the same way. I also sated
P.S. I 100 percent believe not every Muslim hates america.

I made sure to state that the "Muslim Terrorists" as I see them seperate then the everyday "Muslim" person walking the street.
Just as we hear make sure and state that a "Catholic Priest" assaulted a young boy. It is the same difference. Does not mean it is and isults to "Catholics" it is just a statement.
I went to school with several Muslim people. They were very nice and we were very close friends until I moved away with my parents. I also have great respect for the poetry that can be found in the Koran. Poetry used figurativly.

As far as Mr.Clinton and his love life being his business, it has long been known that when you are the President of any country your business whether personal or not is the business of the country that you are running. I personally do not want someone that cheats on their spouse as the leader of my nation. But that situation is long dead. Im over it.
As far as the taxes things all I know is that I never heard Clinton disagreeing with taxes. That may not be a good enough reason for you for me to think badly enough for him, but because of those tax raises it made it very difficult for my family and many other families to live. Very hard.
So sorry if you dont like my reasonings, but they are mine.
Im not asking you to agree with me.
And this will be the last time that I repeat that.
So I hope you take the point.
State your point of view. But I dont think it is right to tell people that they are wrong to think the way they thing, because Im pretty sure there are those out there that think the same thing about you.
And yet that is my point.
We will disagree. We will agree to disagree. But even when you said
***in your defense....
you gave nothing that helped defend my point of view.

So when will we stop bickering and start trying to find common ground.

I conceed that the government should only have a minimal place in the peoples lives. I agree with that. I think we should always question our government. I think that once our people have made it to where the Iraq people can do ok on their own that they should leave. I dont think invasion is always then answer unless really really neccessary.
I think the U.S. has alot of cleaning up to do that should start on our own soil first.

Those are only a few things that Im not sure if we agree on, but I hope it will give us a start.
It only takes a few to start trying to agree to start a domino affect.
Im sorry if you dont like me for whatever reason. But I like you even if I think you can be a pain in the *** sometimes. I see that as a good quality in small doses. LOL

Anyways....you all have a good night. And I hope my point has been made and heard somewhere.

Elayna,

I have no desire to find common ground with you.

Your comments demonstrate beliefs and attitudes that are alien to me, to my understanding of how human beings interact, to my understanding of the founding principles of my country, and to the basic precepts of the worlds religions, regardless of what justifications you assert. Your analysis is flawed when compared to known facts. And, you contradict yourself in your own posts.

I apologize for mucking up your post. I will do my best to take my leave of this thread now.

Michael

 

[Don Roley]

I see again that you are invoking 9/11. I will reiterate my previous point: Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the hijackers or their leaders came from or were harbored in Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Hussein was a prick of unimaginable cruelty, but he had nothing to do with what happened to us on September 11, 2001.

But as I said, the lesson we learned from 9-11 were very applicable to him.

I missed a lot of the debate in the last 24 hours and it has gone off in many tangents. So I will deal with only this issue for now.

Yes, Hussein had no contact with Al- Queada and did not support them in their attack on the US.

But what of the lessons of 9-11?

Some will say that Hussein was no threat to the US and we should have left him alone.

Well, by that logic, neither was Osama Bin Laden or the Taliban.

Can anyone name me an advantage, resource or ability that Osama had that Hussein did not have or could get after the sanctions were lifted?

Because I can list a whole lot of things Hussein had that Osama would have killed to have. Hussein had a hell of a lot more money, two members of the UN security council willing to go to bat for him, countries that owed him favors, the resources of a real goverment and military.... just to name a few.

Yet with all the disadvantages that Osama had compared to Hussein, he managed to kill thousands of Americans.

9-11 showed us what happens when we play the game of trying to discover attacks and deal with those that want to kill us after they make their move. We played defense for years and let a guy who openly wanted to do harm to Americans get away with attacks on our citizens and build up support. Am I talking about Osama or Hussein? Osama attacked the twin towers in the 90s, and we didn't blast the country that sheltered him off the map. Hussein tried to kill an ex-president as well as things like trying to run a bio weapons program under the noses of UN inspectors and he was still in power afterwards.

9-11 taught us that it does not take aircraft carriers or tanks to do harm to another nation. It taught us that people who attack us and are allowed to survive try to kill us again. And it taught us that even a small group of people can manage to kill thousands of innocent people.

Everything that Osama had on 9-10-2001 Hussein would have had and more as soon as he got his patsys to lift the sanctions. He hated America just as much and was even more nutty than Osama- who never tried taking on America in a stand up fight.

Hussein had no hand in the operation of 9-11. But 9-11 showed us the dangers we faced from even people with no ability to land tanks on our beach. If you think the US should have done more to stop the 9-11 attacks by attacking Osama until he was dead, why leave Hussein to do his stuff and get lucky at some point?

 

[Monadnock]

As an (last) addendum to my previous posts and to further clarify my position, I believe the war on terror is necessary but obviously not progressing they way that it should.

I would never side with the loudmouths of the board, but they do have a point on the war's overall success rate thus far.

The trouble is, that today everything can be broadcast and shown on TV. War is ugly; babies, mothers and fathers die. The innocent are lost just as the enemy. But once the decision has been made to go in, it can't be done half heartedly. But as of late, this country is hell bent on the "gentle war" to appease, well, the loudmouths, foreign nations and other people with loose grips on the reality of what war is.

We all know the United States is the most powerful nation on earth, militarily among other ways. There is NO reason Iraq should be in the state it is aside from improper execution, in my humble (non-military) opinion. But the decision to go in was right, and that is what I stand behind, including the troops over there.

Bash the administration if you must, criticize the execution of the war, but to deny it's importance is suicidal.

See you on the other boards. Snide comments and ad hominums will still be smiled at.

 

[Flying Crane]

The trouble is, that today everything can be broadcast and shown on TV. War is ugly; babies, mothers and fathers die. The innocent are lost just as the enemy.

Ah, but very very little of this is shown in American TV. We are too delicate in our sensibilites to view these images. What is shown in US TV is dramatically softened and censored so that we won't recognize the true horrors of war, and we can sit back in comfort and not worry too much about how terrible the situation really is, and how responsible for that fact the US is in creating a completely unstable situation over there. Show us the images of mangled bodies from the blasts, and the assassinations. The US public needs to see these images plastered all over the TV, so that we can understand what it is really like in a war zone. Maybe then we will not be so eager to go to war, and maybe then we will look in earnest for alternate methods to solve our differences, rather than falling back on military might.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Even assuming that we should not have gone into Iraq (I think we should have gone into Iran instead), we are there, and the policies we've implemented made a hash of things. We would be doing ourselves, the Iraqi people, and the world a huge mis-service if we just pulled out without putting things right. We went in there and it's now our responsibility.

If we pulled out now, we'd just be sending our young men and women there again a few years down the line. No amount of argumentative tactics will change that fact.

Jeff