Properly identify what you teach and learn.

[Jared Traveler]

He's right, but it's not something you learn from any MA. One thing people are taught to do, which is been caught on camera for both jackings and attempted abductions, is driving right through them (and there's good ways and bad ways to do that, which have to be taught by people with relevant experience)--but it takes a bit of training or life experience to recongnize the signs, which brings us back to "left of bang," human behavioral profiling and analysis.

Again, this is where context matters a LOT. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Has this happened to anyone in your area before? Did they stop? Did they attempt to drive through?

This would be apart of a threat assessment of types of crimes in your area, or an area you are traveling to. This can be important to understanding how to best respond. But you are certainly thinking and that's great!

 

[Jared Traveler]

For the purpose of this discussion, what would you consider success in that scenario?

The goal in most scenarios regardless if force is used or not should be de-escalation in my opinion. I might accomplish de-escalation through words, through use of force, or through compliance. It all depends.

In this case de-escalation through compliance would be your most likely way to problem solve. By the nature of the scenario, it's not a homicide, it's a carjacking. Let them have the vehicle to de-escalate the situation.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Again, this is where context matters a LOT. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Has this happened to anyone in your area before? Did they stop? Did they attempt to drive through?

This would be apart of a threat assessment of types of crimes in your area, or an area you are traveling to. This can be important to understanding how to best respond. But you are certainly thinking and that's great!

Thinking? Lol, this is a known method for being ambushed in the car taught in evasive driving courses, and there is dashcam footage of people doing it.

Researching a given area for types of crime and criminal TTP is yet another discipline.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Last point for this-after posting I took a look again at the OP. You list:
Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training
As the different realms.

The carjacking could fit into a couple of those realms, but not sure where having your bag stolen fits into.
Martial Arts Training: Not a direct relation, IMO. It's related, as those skills transfer over a bit, but it's different than what most martial arts teach/train for.
Self-defense Training: This isn't really self-defense either. You're defended by simply not engaging.
Combatives Training: This is military training right? I suppose retention would fall under hear, but only if he were holding the bag, not if the bag was at a table and he was waiting in line or something along those lines.
Safety Training/Personal Security Training: I must be missing something because these both sound like the same thing to me. And neither are really relevant to a stolen bag-both would say leave the bag alone because you don't know if the robber has a gun, or stole your bag with the intent to lure you out of the store.

Combatives isn't really "military training." It's basically "what's the quickest way to deal with this threat," and you can throw in all sorts of variables that change how it goes.

"Personal security training" sounds like it's more in the realm of "Gray Man Theory," and "Left of Bang," basically not bringing attention to yourself and staying out of bad situations.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I've dealt with one gun. You pretty much walk a thin line. You don't want to look to weak because you might get shot. You don't want to look too strong because now you are a threat and you get shot. You don't want to piss then off because you get shot. You don't want to step to far away because you get shot. You don't want to step too close because you get shot.

Youend up talking to buy time and an opportunity to walk away alive or to get a jump on the gun. Butdon't focus too hard on being the gun or you might get shot.

Basically, you want to have Resting Ryan Gosling Face.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Thinking? Lol, this is a known method for being ambushed in the car taught in evasive driving courses, and there is dashcam footage of people doing it.

Researching a given area for types of crime and criminal TTP is yet another discipline.

I agree. Evasive driving, driving as it pertains to ambush survival are all legit skills to aquire. All I'm saying is(and I think we are on the same page here) is find out what is working in your area, if possible, through a threat assessment. That's not always possible, or relevant, I understand that.

You are vulnerable when you stop and try to comply, you are also potentially vulnerable when you try to drive out of a situation. So it comes down to staying calm and thinking under stress, making decisions based on the details of what is happening. I think we agree on this.

I feel like I'm deviating from the point of the original post, which ultimately wasn't about carjackings, so I will try and get back on task though.

The last thing I will try and say about mitigating a carjacking, is to keep in mind that when it happens, you may not be the one driving the vehicle. That's a big problem if your only plan is to drive out of it.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I agree. Evasive driving, driving as it pertains to ambush survival are all legit skills to aquire. All I'm saying is(and I think we are on the same page here) is find out what is working in your area, if possible, through a threat assessment. That's not always possible, or relevant, I understand that.

You are vulnerable when you stop and try to comply, you are also potentially vulnerable when you try to drive out of a situation. So it comes down to staying come and thinking under stress, making decisions based on the details of what is happening. I think we agree on this.

I feel like I'm deviating from the point of the original post, which ultimately wasn't about carjackings, so I will try and get back on task though.

The last thing I will try and say about mitigating a carjacking, is to keep in mind that when it happens, you may not be the one driving the vehicle. That's a big problem if your only plan is to drive out of it.

If you are somewhere at risk, you should have researched in advance what those risks are and how locals deal with them. If carjackings are a thing, you shouldn't let anyone drive you don't trust in that situation.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Combatives isn't really "military training." It's basically "what's the quickest way to deal with this threat," and you can throw in all sorts of variables that change how it goes.

"Personal security training" sounds like it's more in the realm of "Gray Man Theory," and "Left of Bang," basically not bringing attention to yourself and staying out of bad situations.

Much of security training is left of bang called "avoidance" but also much of it is right of bang called "mitigation." Sometimes you can mitigate with "martial arts" other times it might take firearms training, which would fall under a well rounded "self-defense" program, depending on your theology of violence. Sometimes you mitigate with your words, or by simply walking away.

But I would say personal security is the umbrella that many of these other skills fall within, assuming your training is comprehensive. Both left and right of bang.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Combatives vs self-defense. The distinction here is important, I think. There is more crossover here, but the differences are critical to understand. I think in reality there are very few true combatives programs being taught to civilians. There has been a lot of self-defense blended into the combatives programs. To the point where you find people claiming to teach combatives, but in reality they are actually trying to understand and teach self-defense through a combatives system. But without a deep understanding of how to teach self-defense.

 

[drop bear]

Combatives vs self-defense. The distinction here is important, I think. There is more crossover here, but the differences are critical to understand. I think in reality there are very few true combatives programs being taught to civilians. There has been a lot of self-defense blended into the combatives programs. To the point where you find people claiming to teach combatives, but in reality they are actually trying to understand and teach self-defense through a combatives system. But without a deep understanding of how to teach seself-defense.

On the flip side the adopt a cop program which takes police away from specialist combatives or self defence and putting the instruction in the hands of civilian martial artists. Seems to be working better.

Adopt-A-Cop | Checkmat Lynchburg

www.checkmatvirginia.com

 

[Jared Traveler]

On the flip side the adopt a cop program which takes police away from specialist combatives or self defence and putting the instruction in the hands of civilian martial artists. Seems to be working better.

Adopt-A-Cop | Checkmat Lynchburg

www.checkmatvirginia.com

Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.

If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.

 

[drop bear]

Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.

If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.

No. I am talking about cops doing BJJ. And that being so much better than what they were learning that specifics don't really matter.

 

[drop bear]

Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.

If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.

Also. Why do you think police were doing those garbage systems?

 

[Jared Traveler]

No. I am talking about cops doing BJJ. And that being so much better than what they were learning that specifics don't really matter.

The specifics don't matter? As I said, I'm sorry but my previous statement stands.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Also. Why do you think police were doing those garbage systems?

Great question, but way off topic from my original post. On another thread I might dive into unrelated police topics. Even though this is probably a waist of my time. But for the purpose of this conversation, police defensive tactics, police firearms training, police use of force, police scenario training, police room clearing tactics, all of it is contextualized to the specific job at hand.

Details and nuances matter if you are going to effectively teach a subject matter.

 

[drop bear]

The specifics don't matter? As I said, I'm sorry but my previous statement stands.

The point is police had a industry specific system. The moved to a more generic one.

What do you think the reason for that was?

 

[Jared Traveler]

The point is police had a industry specific system. The moved to a more generic one.

What do you think the reason for that was?

Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

..o.

Unfortunately, I've had guns pointed at me before. It sucked every time.

But one time, in our early twenties, three of us were in Florida, went to the everglades, and had shots fired into the bushes near us. (We think we stumbled onto a drug operation.)

We ran so fast, scared out of our minds. Jumped in the car, took off like a bat out of hell, drove three hours to Key West at eighty miles an hour, changed clothes, hid the car, and drank all night, still scared shipless.

Our courage knew no bounds.

Courage was in your feet and it knew a lot of bounds that day.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Hey these are fantastic questions, of which I have a lot of thoughts on. PM me or start a thread on it. I don't think it's a bad question, I just think it will distract from what I'm trying to talk about here.

The reality of, well, reality based fighting programs, is that people get hurt before anyone learns.

Student: "How do you know that a stab to the left ventricle is a fight-stopper?"

Instructor: "Because I've personally witnessed it in the field, every coroners report with that injury points in the same direction, and you find countless CCTV videos of it."

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Are you referring to updating antiquated, ineffective, government approved watered down, police department defensive tactics programs? And replacing them with programs that were not created in the 1970s, based on what we know now that actually works? Bringing in civilian instructors who partener with law enforcement personal, to create specific up-to-date programs that work for cops? Taking into account their use of force requirements, duty belt and vests worn? Taking into account that they need survival techniques, and control and arrest techniques? If so yes, this is great. And also exactly in line with my point on how context and details matter.

If you think law enforcement is officially letting just anyone teach them martial arts, based on what people are learning at the dojo down the street (because it's all the same) you are out of touch with what is actually happening.

People greatly overestimate how in touch with reality LEO admins are, in terms of where they allocate resources. Good combatives programs are expensive, and gyms with instructors certified in them are not common--thus the next best thing is local BJJ.