Properly identify what you teach and learn.

So it is theoretical.
The environmental variables, the manner in which the aggressor initiates, the verbal engagement with the aggressor, the technique against the knife, the target placement with the knife, the fact that the aggressor pretty much immediately drops after being "stabbed" in the armpit/shoulder/neck/back of neck, the interaction with the bystander, and the manner of conversation with the "police"--are not theoretical.
 
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.
Survive, so I assume you mean just give the car up. Which is the only sane answer. Why then do you think Tyson is ill-equipped for that.
 
I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.

If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time.

So you guys need to figure out what outcome you're working for to have a discussion about it.

For my own input, my argument is the same. If I'm going to try to take on 3 carjackers from a seated position, the only way I'm winning that is if I've got some of captain america's super serum.

However, if I mean to survive, then most likely I'm going to survive. You could argue I need verbal de-escalation skills for that, but
A) that's not a martial art skill,
B) that's not something most security trainings actually teach well, and
C) That's not something you would really need for this particular situation (that Jared came up with). Most of the time a carjacking is occurring, people are not looking to kill the person they're stealing the car from, they're looking to take the car quickly. Especially if they're blazing weapons.
I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.
 
If you are somewhere at risk, you should have researched in advance what those risks are and how locals deal with them. If carjackings are a thing, you shouldn't let anyone drive you don't trust in that situation.
That assumes any given person knows someone trained or experienced enough to be trusted with that situation. Most don’t.
 
That assumes any given person knows someone trained or experienced enough to be trusted with that situation. Most don’t.
I mean..this is effectively a thread on tactical training, which is a field with sub-disciplines. The average person doesn’t even know how to indentify and categorize pre-predation behaviors in the moment.

The statement implies, that if you don’t fit the category, then perhaps you should be the one driving.
 
I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.
Some people have lived very comfortable lives, and the thought wouldn’t cross their mind.
 
Survive, so I assume you mean just give the car up. Which is the only sane answer. Why then do you think Tyson is ill-equipped for that.
He doesn’t. Drop Bear was doing the “MMA or bah” speach, and he was pointing out that pro-level boxing skills aren’t necessarily going to help you in this situation.
 
This is probably a great weapons disarm class. That's part of the problem though, it leaves the student feeling that to survive the carjacking, I need to wrestle over a loaded gun. It's good skill to have(you might needed it in a carjacking), but that's not the same thing as teaching realistically how to survive a carjacking. You are actually teaching people to escalate an economic crime, into a situation where you get shot.
 
I was going from his assertion that someone specially trained would fare better than Mike Tyson. That seems to imply more than just survival, since Iton Mike could probably give his car up as easily as I could.
Right, while any idiot can just give up his car, there can be a lot more to it than that. Again, different skill set.
 
I don't have to disprove RSBD.

It has to prove itself.
It already has—CCTV, phone cameras, hospital records, law enforcement records, military records.

There’s also the stories of people we know personally, who’ve been through street fights.

Modern gunfighting, the military’s CQB courses, and knife-fighting could not exist in their current forms, if your assertion was true.

I do not get your problem.
 
This is probably a great weapons disarm class. That's part of the problem though, it leaves the student feeling that to survive the carjacking, I need to wrestle over a loaded gun. It's good skill to have(you might needed it in a carjacking), but that's not the same thing as teaching realistically how to survive a carjacking. You are actually teaching people to escalate an economic crime, into a situation where you get shot.
I was always taught to not try anything, until I there were cues I wasn’t getting out alive.

Any instructor who doesn’t emphasize that is probably not a good instructor.
 
I was always taught to not try anything, until I there were cues I wasn’t getting out alive.

Any instructor who doesn’t emphasize that is probably not a good instructor.
I agree. Also keep in mind that clue is hard to nail down. It might be simply prior knowledge, leading up to the weapon being presented.
 
I agree. Also keep in mind that clue is hard to nail down. It might be simply prior knowledge, leading up to the weapon being presented.
Which is why it is essential to be taught accordingly by qualified instructors. I was always taught:

a) Pay attention to escalating aggressive behavior

b) Never get in the car

c) Being asked to kneel is typically a death sentence
 
It already has—CCTV, phone cameras, hospital records, law enforcement records, military records.

There’s also the stories of people we know personally, who’ve been through street fights.

Modern gunfighting, the military’s CQB courses, and knife-fighting could not exist in their current forms, if your assertion was true.

I do not get your problem.

Why couldn't they exist?

And untrained people win fights.
 
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Which is exactly why the adopt a cop type programs are good alternatives/supplements to the training cops are officially given.

What I found interesting Is that they are a generic system. So you basically are just sponsored to train at whatever club is going in the area.(sort of)

Now having a definite view regarding industry training I always had a bias that this was going to be the case.

But the figures are starting to support that.

And hopefully it forces the industry guys to lift their game a bit.
 
The environmental variables, the manner in which the aggressor initiates, the verbal engagement with the aggressor, the technique against the knife, the target placement with the knife, the fact that the aggressor pretty much immediately drops after being "stabbed" in the armpit/shoulder/neck/back of neck, the interaction with the bystander, and the manner of conversation with the "police"--are not theoretical.

So then they did all that stuff. And were not acting that stuff because theoretically it is how that scenario plays out?
 
Why couldn't they exist?
Because the only instances in which lethal weapons are tested the way you desire, is in street fights, gang turf wars, counter-abduction, law enforcement raids, war, and counter-terrorism. These incidents are recorded, and debriefed on, so the relevant parties learn from them.

So then they did all that stuff. And were not acting that stuff because theoretically it is how that scenario plays out?

Military and police special operations do very similar scenario training.

CAG/Delta/ArmySOF doing hostage rescue drill

Former IDF Training EU police special operations
 
Which is why it is essential to be taught accordingly by qualified instructors. I was always taught:

a) Pay attention to escalating aggressive behavior

b) Never get in the car

c) Being asked to kneel is typically a death sentence
I would be careful with B. and C.

B. Is highly contextualized depending on where you are on the planet. Also I would never say never.

C. Is simply not the case. Regardless lots of specifics to consider here depending on the situation.
 
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