Properly identify what you teach and learn.

[Xue Sheng]

I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?

I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories

The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?

Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it

 

[Jared Traveler]

I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories



Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it

Hello Xue

Great question! I would say "personal security training" could have prevented the assault. At the point she became aware of a problem she was in a "self-defense situation." A self-defense situation that is the type of situation where her "martial arts training" helped her. In this situation, based on the totality of the circumstances she would have even been justifed in using "combatives training." If she had been injured "safety training" in applying medical self-aid might have been needed.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Gentleman I'm hitting three flights and will be on airplanes for the next 24 hours or so. I might get WiFi, but if not, I will enjoy talking when I can.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I find that the longer I do this type of work, certain things become clear. One of those things is how important definitions are to bringing clarity to what you are learning, and what you are not learning. What you are teaching and what you are not teaching. Here are some terms to consider definitions for.

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same. It is important to know what you are teaching and learning. Your thoughts?

Simply put--there is a fair amount of overlap, but there are critical distinctions per each.

Some example considerations:

--Law
--Human Behavioral profiling and analysis, the "Left of Bang" mindset
--Understanding criminal ambushes and natural lines of drift
--How protecting a "principal" changes the way you implement technique
--Discreet ready positions
--Chaining strikes and lining up opponents
--Weaponology and weapons of opportunity
--Deescalation and pre-fight psychology
--Methods of drawing a weapon, and how to do so discreetly if need-be

 

[Jared Traveler]

Simply put--there is a fair amount of overlap, but there are critical distinctions per each.

Simply put, I would agree. Teaching these subjects professionally, the differences become much more important to understand.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Simply put, I would agree. Teaching these subjects professionally, the differences become much more important to understand.

Yes, I edited with elaboration.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

The first one, nobody is going to fare well in, except Liam Neeson. The second, what makes you say Tyson would be at a disadvantage over someone specifically trained to deal with fighting with a phone in one hand and coffee in the other?

Easy. Three guys with AK47s carjacking him. Or someone stealing his bag while he is on his phone at a coffee shop

There's a way for everything, and theoretically by a miracle you could pull if off--but unless you got grenades, armed ISR assets and backup--you're basically fucked.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Respectfully.. Yes, I do. And not everyone is Mike Tyson.

Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It might indeed. You sound antagonist, and implying I'm a fool. What would you do if three people with AK47s wanted your vehicle?

Ignore him. I looked up old posts on the subject, which he happened to comment on. He doesn't say strictly incorrect things, but he's been rude and argumentative for the sake of it going back years.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.

Mike Tyson, as I understand, grew up as a gangbanger-- which would mean he probably acquired relevant practical fight knowledge.

I agree, but there is a big difference between sucker punching someone and ethically and legally defending yourself.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I will be honest, I do not feel it i necessary to drill down that far to make such specific categories

Interesting you should say that. I know a "Taijiquan" teacher, whose daughter now teaches Taijiquan at his school. She was a Sand/sanshou fighter, and a rater good one.

She was attacked on a street in NYC one night, while walking hone. She was talking on a cell phone and carrying a bag of groceries in the other hand. A guy ran out of an alley and grabbed her by the wait, she instinctively turned and hit the guy in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, knocking the guy on his butt. He got up and tried again, she hit him again, in the face, with the hand holding the cell phone, he fell again. At that point the guy ran away. She did not drop the bag of groceries or break the cell phone. I wonder how the OP would categorize her training...and to be honest why would you want to, or need to categorize it

Her training could be categorized as this - Reacting with aggressiveness, strength and confidence without hesitation. This category of training eclipses those previously mentioned. While they are all shades of MA, without this category being trained none of the others matter.

 

[lklawson]

Martial Arts Training
Self-defense Training
Combatives Training
Safety Training
Personal Security Training

These skills are not the same.

Except when they are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Jared Traveler]

Except when they are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Agreed, but that is largely missing the point. In fact it is the overlap that creates false confidence and misunderstanding. Leading to people not receiving the training they need, or being trained incorrectly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Mike Tyson is keeping his bag.

Mike is down to earth about boxing and street fights. I think he would give up the bag of it was in his best interest. Having kids or being married tends to make his less willing to take things to the extreme. At least for me there have been 5 occasions where the 19 year old me would have gone to the brink of death"cause I don't let people link me. But that changed when I got married and changed again when I had kids.

Don't get me wrong I don't have any dislike of violence. I just see me existence as more value than just me. People depend on me to have my s- -t together if I'm not around then they will suffer. I didn't have that mind set in my early 20's.

 

[Jared Traveler]

You would not want a cyber security guy, teaching a martial arts class. You would not want a martial artist developing a security plan for someone who receives a threatening text message. Being able to teach a fire drill, or tornado drill does not qualify you to teach self-defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not true at all. Carjackings are something a great multitude of people have survived. And there is specific training to mitigate this, and to avoid it. I'm no antagonist, so please don't take it that way. But these comments are proving my point. Skill and knowledge at teaching one thing does not equate to skill at teaching a different subject matter.

You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Mike is down to earth about boxing and street fights. I think he would give up the bag of it was in his best interest. Having kids or being married tends to make his less willing to take things to the extreme. At least for me there have been 5 occasions where the 19 year old me would have gone to the brink of death"cause I don't let people link me. But that changed when I got married and changed again when I had kids.

Don't get me wrong I don't have any dislike of violence. I just see me existence as more value than just me. People depend on me to have my s- -t together if I'm not around then they will suffer. I didn't have that mind set in my early 20's.

I agree. In the hypothetical situation where we celebrate Mike's ability to get his bag back(or another skilled fighter) we forget. He also might get someone else he loves killed over a $65 worth of property in a bag. This is what you get when you think martial arts is the same as security training. Excellent observations JowGaWolf.

And again, most people are not Mike Tyson. But what you do often see is a lot of aggressive people try to get their property back and get hurt in the process.

 

[Jared Traveler]

You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You specified a carjacking with three heavily armed assailants. No single person will fare well against that.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's this type of thinking that proves my point. You are I assume an accomplishment martial artist, but are not qualified to teach someone on how to mitigate a carjacking situation. Please don't take offense, but you realize their are professional classes for unarmed, and untrained people on how to do this? And unarmed, untrained in martial arts people survive carjackings all of the time, aided by their security training.

I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.

If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time.

So you guys need to figure out what outcome you're working for to have a discussion about it.

For my own input, my argument is the same. If I'm going to try to take on 3 carjackers from a seated position, the only way I'm winning that is if I've got some of captain america's super serum.

However, if I mean to survive, then most likely I'm going to survive. You could argue I need verbal de-escalation skills for that, but
A) that's not a martial art skill,
B) that's not something most security trainings actually teach well, and
C) That's not something you would really need for this particular situation (that Jared came up with). Most of the time a carjacking is occurring, people are not looking to kill the person they're stealing the car from, they're looking to take the car quickly. Especially if they're blazing weapons.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think you are both using different definitions of fare well.

If by fare well, we mean win a fight/keep your car against these hypothetical people, then yes (gerry), no one will fare well. If by fare well, we mean survive the carjacking and not be hospitalized/killed, then yes (jared), people succeed with that all the time.

So you guys need to figure out what outcome you're working for to have a discussion about it.

For my own input, my argument is the same. If I'm going to try to take on 3 carjackers from a seated position, the only way I'm winning that is if I've got some of captain america's super serum.

However, if I mean to survive, then most likely I'm going to survive. You could argue I need verbal de-escalation skills for that, but
A) that's not a martial art skill,
B) that's not something most security trainings actually teach well, and
C) That's not something you would really need for this particular situation (that Jared came up with). Most of the time a carjacking is occurring, people are not looking to kill the person they're stealing the car from, they're looking to take the car quickly. Especially if they're blazing weapons.

Defining success during criminal attacks is critical, I agree. In fact this is a key component of personal security training. However as a martial artist you have a hammer and everything tends to look like a nail. I completely agree that being carjacked by three guys with AK47s is not a situation for martial arts skills. The lack of crossover here is pronounced, as it was intended to be by the example.

I would also agree that most security training is not done well. A big reason for that is that people haven't taken the time to understand the differences needed to effectively teach the subject matter.

Monkey Turned Wolf, you are exactly right.