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Hey Chris,
I respect your opinion and your willingness to debate on the internet as you are a master at it.
However, I think I will instead of looking at internet posts or reading books will base my opinion from contact with friends living and training in Japan and of course my own travel to that country. Some of these friends who also not only speak but can read the language and while most are in the Bujinkan and may practice another art as well. The one friend works there, speaks the langauage and also only studies in a Koryu. No offense but his opinion is golden to me.
He is just a guy an individual per se studying an old Japanese system and he really likes it too. However he is a realist and sees it for what it is. Often I find irregardless of where the system originates that someone who practices it outside of the country tries to be more, do more or over romantices their training than someone who is actually training there. That is cool we all have our romantic wishes. Everyone does!
Xue is right in that if a style believes it is more overall important than the students then it is a work of ego or collective group ego.
Now if we look at the origional OP's idea regarding Bubba and Jones it goes to the idea that both have the same training yet one is better than the other. Now I am not saying a group or teachers or system is not important in an individuals growth. However, in the end in any circumstance or situation it will come down to the individual. Surely you can see this?
If you are attacked tomorrow, you the individual will have to deal with the situation in some manner. Your choice to train in the Martial Sciences will hopefully benefit you. However, your actions in that moment will be what determines your fate.
That is similar to when Bubba steps in the cage. His actions determine his fate whether he wins or loses. His choice of who he trains with and how hard he trains and his natural individual abilities determine the outcome.
Jones can give advice from the sidelines but Bubba the individual has to determine whether he takes it or not or even if he has the ability to hear it. Bubba the individual is the one that has to process everything and in turn determines what happens. Because in the end it comes down to the individual and their abilities and skill sets.
iI is kind've like at work. You may have graduated from the best University in your field. Trained with the best as well. However, when you are at your job if you the individual are not working hard and doing a good job your going to lose that job! You might have a friend at work that can bail you out a few times but in the end if you do not take care of business your going to be unemployed. You can even have a collective group working towards a goal but in that group each individual has to do their job. Otherwise with whatever they are doing it can all fall apart. A group is only as strong as the sum of it parts. Those parts are individuals! Hope the clarity helps.
While I have no desire to get involved in any of the back and forth that is going on here, I do want to add this link to a brief article written by Dave Lowry for the owners of koryu.com. It was written as a final admonition to the large number of people that were trying to join their dojo. In my opinion, it does a good job of summing up the attitude of all of the koryu that I've been associated with. It also gives a glimpse into why some people call those of us that practice the koryu elitists and cult members. So You Want to Join the Ryu?
I dont think thats the case in this thread.
The OP stated that two guys with the same training from the same school have different results in the ring. He states that he believes that thus is because, when it comes to victory in the ring, in combat..etc, what ultimately matters more than the "system" is the person implementing the system. Any system that teaches practical techniques can be MADE effective by the right person.
How this got spun off into "koryu" I don't know, but Im guessing there are person/political/"system" reasons behind it.
By the way I like Chris and have no issues with him personal or political! Nor do I think I should be lumped into a category having trained in a wide assortment of martial systems both old and new. (so I don't think I should be lumped as the Bujinkan guy having also trained in other Japanese martial arts, hint, hint )
Personally I do not care about any system, style, irregardless of country of origin, how old they are, etc. I love all martial endeavors and those that practice them and respect anyone that trains in them and that means I respect them even if they do not agree with me on a topic and I am more than cool with that as well!
So no hard feelings of any sort on my part here! (I can talk politics with people of different political views to)
I think we can all agree an individual decides he or she wants to learn some form of martial arts, self defense, etc. So they go and join a system. They train, they learn and hopefully become proficient if they have the individual characteristics to do so.
If they have to use what they learn "the individual" implements it and if they are practical and he or she has the right abilities they may work! In the end though the system was not implementing the training it wil be the individual. So training and a system with guides are important but in the end the individual will have to make it all work! Their abilities will determine if it can. (the individuals abilities) This is pretty undeniable irregardless of the system trained in whether old or new.
Even whether the system is modern or old with little to no practical skill sets. Say a system has no martial value but is just for personal growth. Personal growth indicates that the system is geared toward the individuals personal growth!
If is system is only for the group then let me tell you that doesn't exist because why would any individual stay if they get nothing. (maybe they got brainwashed)
If we look at Koryu and if you are a practitioner you get nothing? Really? I don't buy it and have anecdotal proof that this is not true.
Koryu practitioners get the training from the system and a connection to other individual people practicing in that system. So they the individual are getting some thing.
They are also the indivdual who would implement that training if needed.
I don't see it as a chicken and an egg argument as in the end any group is a collection of individuals doing some thing. Some in any group will be good at whatever they are doing, some will be mediocre and some will quite frankly be bad.
Everyone on this board is an individual with their own unique experiences. Those experiences help to make us into the individual that we are. Just saying.
Firstly, apologies for continuing with this. My aim is to end it by addressing each point, and hopefully, clarify exactly why I am stating that Brian is incorrect... as he's looking at it from the wrong direction. For any uninterested in this side of things (and I really can't blame you for that!), sorry.
And here we go... Brian, that is a complete mis-representation of the mentality of Koryu. There is no "ego", or even "collective group ego" at play here... there is just the recognition that, in Koryu, you are working towards a different aim. You don't get that. That's obvious. But it doesn't make you (or Xue here) right.
And I hope to have ended it on page 2 post #28 and again on page 3 post #32 but here we are on page 5 Post #64
Doesn't make us wrong either.....and everything is not Koryu.... but to be honest this is just getting silly so...you want to be right....alrighty then....your right.... .are we done
And I am coming from an experience base where I do know what I'm talking about, and what the reality is. The way you are telling me that I'm not looking at things with a realistic viewpoint is firstly wrong, and secondly offensive. You are not familiar with the context, that's fine. But it doesn't mean that what you are familiar with is applicable. It isn't.
I know your Iai background as well, Brian... so let me talk to you Iai student to Iai student (can't remember if you did Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu or Muso Shinden Ryu, but as they're basically two variants on each other, we can talk pretty safely). My system (of Iai) is Muso Shinden Ryu, for the record.
So let's look at studying Iai. There are many different reasons for studying Iai, but when you do study it, what is the purpose of the art being taught? In other words, why are you being allowed to learn it in the first place? The basic answer is that the art is taught in order to pass it on... not necessarily to turn you into a devastatingly effective swordsman... and, as you learn the system, you are expected to focus on learning the system the way it is taught (you learn the kata as they are, in the order they are, rather than allowing you to explore your own preferences for what you "want" to do with a sword). In other words, if the kata states that you step forward and draw your sword horizontally, then slide forward and cut straight down, followed by a large "chiburi" action, and a specific noto, but you prefer a different noto or chiburi, or really like cutting with an upward angle instead, as you think it's better, it doesn't matter what you think or prefer... you do the system the way it is meant to be done. If you don't want to do what the art says, you don't train in it. You learn the system to learn the system. And you get taught the system with the aim of you learning the system... so that the system is preserved and protected. The students wishes/desires really have no place there... obviously they need to want to learn the system, but beyond that, there is no real emphasis on what the student wants. It really doesn't matter.
You know I was trying to multiquote and this site boxed a post I had been on and off working on since early this morning! Bob Hubbard I blame you for that!
Wow Chris really?
Sorry if your offended! Maybe your taking this thread a little to seriously? I could easily have been offended all the way along it but I'm not as it is just an internet thread!!!
You are a master at internet debating. That is a compliment! It is some thing I most certainly am not because quite frankly I just do not have the time. No time to grammatically correct someone, no time to carry on an endless debate. You see when I got up this morning I woke up got the kid's up, fed them, checked email for book, dvd orders, etc., checked my blog and checked here. All in about five minutes or so. Then I logged on to this thread and proceeded to respond. Only being interrupted along the way by taking kid's to school, walking the dog and seeing the wife off. Shortly my first private of the day will roll in and I will be off training with him and then onto my morning training routine. (that is after all what is important) All the while probably still logged on here as it will take a while to respond to some thing that is quite frankly not worth my time. (not that you are not worth my time so please do not take it that way) However my daily activities is in the end just a personal individual issue that I have and has no bearing on the thread at all. (maybe on individuality) Except that I was paying a you a compliment for being a really, really good debater in that you have the time, skill and ability to do so!
So let's carry on. Not trying to hurt your feelings. I do respect you as a person and that you are entitled to your opinion even if you decide not to like me!
To everyone else apologies all around to you as well! Not trying to offend anyone here!
So carrying on.....
There are many different reasons to study Iai. In my individual perspective I study Iai to give me a sense of broader depth with Japanese sword movement. It has absolutley nothing to do with passing on the ryu, rank or really that particular ryu in and of itself. I will not pass it on as an instructor. (my instructor knows this) It was conveniently located (only an hour and a half drive from my old home) and the instructor is very good. I'm just studying to have a different perspective and that is why this individual studies it. Within the group that I train with (which is not often anymore except when I get back because I have moved across the country even though I practice everyday) there is one friend who studies primarily to have a hobby and get out of his house. That is his individual reason for studying. Another studies because his girl friend does and it gives them some thing to do together. If she stopped he would be done as well. (I know this for a fact as we have conversed several times on the subject over a beer) Another individual that I introduced to the group studies because he really, really likes it. He might even become an instructor down the road if I judge it correctly. (might) However, out of this group there are really only two people interested in the ryu in more than a superficial manner and that is the instructor and myself. Now my interest is only to have a different perspective with no intention of ever teaching or passing it on. While his is if I am judging it correctly by conversation is to be proficient and have some thing meaningful to do now and in his retirement. (though there could be more) I would say that the students wishes and desires as far as the training go have a lot to do with what is going on. Lord knows people try it out stay a bit and then many leave realizing it is not for them. Now the ryu is being passed on that does not mean that that there is no variation or change happening. I know this based on training with other practitioner's in the same ryu from different teachers. While we all do things fairly similarly you can see deviations here and there. Because in the end we are all individuals and while learning a system there will be individual characteristics coming out. That is reality! Take for instance if someone has a body type, injury or physical impairment that will not allow them to do the kata exactly the same way as the instructor. They may be able to do it closely but there will be some deviation or change of form for them. These slight deviations seem to be fairly common throughout Iaido in general or any martial practice for that matter. Not to mention when someone leaves a ryu and started another one whether in the present or way, way back in the past. Some individual came up with this stuff after all! (or a group of individuals) Probably because they thought they could do it better. Or because they had divine inspiration which we both know is a theme with some Koryu. (gives great cover to individual expression) There is also time in a ryu after learning the katas to take the training beyond that of course and that does lead to even more experimentation. (I know you know this already) Katas help you learn but in the end you take the training and make it your own! Maybe I am with a bunch of people who are just not romanticising it quite as much. Maybe you are with a group that romanticises it quite a bit more. That is cool as well! Really I have no problem with someone having a very romantic viewpoint of their system. If it works for you and your training more power to you and anyone else as well! However to say it is all about the ryu is just not accurate, not even close, not reality! It will always come down to the individual and the group any group will fall apart without the individuals. If the system is implemented it will be the individual. It also takes the individuals to keep the system going. Finally, individuals will change the system along the way as well. Nothing is going to be preserved in a vaccum. The Koryu systems haven't, older systems haven't modern ones won't be either. Changes made by a headmaster or instructor along the way happen and that is reality. Some, obviously the Koryu arts of Japan have done a very good job in staying very, very close to the original than others but they have gotten tweaked along the way as well. That is part of the natural human process!
Now as pgsmith said in his post and along with the article some times Koryu members are seen as cult like. That does not mean they are nor did I imply that. However, out there in the cyber world that is a general impression even if it is inaccurate! It does not help though when Koryu practitioners do things to make this image seem real. Similarly it would be inaccurate to characterize the Bujinkan as cult like because of the charismatic "cult of personality" of Hatsumi Sensei! Frankly if you have not met him you have no clue what I am talking about. (really, no clue) Similarly if you base anything of a video he has done you also are out in left field. (you just don't have the depth to understand) Yet, that does not mean you cannot criticise him or form an opinion. That would be your individual choice! However that brings us back to the point that neither is a cult! Which is the reality of the situation!
Koryu are about the ryu! A ryu started by an indivudual or a group of individuals. Through time practiced by a group of indviduals who whether they wanted or not probably made some small deviations along the way. Some of course did see some deviational change by a leader along the way. Now they are a very old, very old systems practiced by a group of individuals who will naturally have a multitude of reasons why they started and continue to practice. Even if there is a cohesive group reason put out by the founder, etc, etc. Each person will have their own individual reason why they practice and continue to practice. One persons reason will probably not be another persons reasons, etc. This I know already based on being told so by a practitioner. Your reason to study, practice Koryu will likely be different in some way than other Koryu practitioners. Really how could it not be! While you are from your posts all about the ryu and passing it on. Frankly, we both know not every Koryu practitioner is that way! Some people just want to train and acquire a skill set even if they may never use it, etc., etc. Just like any martial practice has people there for different reasons! In the end we are all individuals with different things that drive us and with different needs.
The Koryu arts do a wonderful job self selecting students. Really they do! However, they are not the only systems that do this or have done this through time. Many a martial system through time has selected students for various reasons. Propagation of the system, abilities, willingness, loyalty and yes throughout time for money as well! That last one has been a driving force for a lot of systems even if they purport some thing else! The Koryu arts are a model in one sense for anyone or group starting some thing up. Self select, find people on board with the program and bring them in, consciously and subconsciously reinforce this, always push this thought forward, find a few who will stay and continue said process and repeat. It really is a great way to ensure that a system or group carries forward over time. (saw this with a book club once) With the right individuals doing so you will get success. Unfortunately without the right individuals you will get failure and the system or ryu will die which we both know has happened! The ryu or system died or succeeded because of the individuals in the end! Which brings us back to it being the individual that is important! Even in Koryu! There wants, needs, etc. are very important to ensure that the system moves forward and does not die. You might have that one driven student who ensures it will go forward because in the end his drive was to be the one at the top. He may even purport that he does not want to be but secretly he did.
Now the above took me quite a bit of time to compose and frankly I do not have all day or hours to pick apart each and every post. I just don't have the time Chris! If your intention is to win via volume you will. Which is a great internet debating tool!
Nothing I have said has in any way told or is trying to tell other Koryu people that their practice is not meaningful, fantastic or anything else. I am just pointing out that their practice is an individual one in the end. Beautiful, meaningful and a wonderful practice! They are by all accounts wonderful systems and art! Beautiful really!
Sorry again if you take offense but maybe your skin needs to thicken a bit or maybe you need to realize that your just one individual Koryu practitioner? Lighten up a bit it is almost like we are Democrats or Republicans back here in the states. People should be able to talk about things without getting their knickers in an uproar!
If you want to be right and that will make you feel better I am more than happy to say that you are right!
I'm done as well Chris we could go round and round and right round. Feel free to have the last word if you wish!
Really no hard feeling as well! I still respect your opinion even if it may not be one that I could agree with! Still we are cool I would buy you a beer if you came over here!
Now onto some personal training!!! I am feeling inspired to train!!!
It was pointed out earlier in the thread, but not really responded to, that people are using completely different meanings of the word "matters" and this is confusing the discussion.
Celtic_crippler was using it in the sense of "the attributes of an individual matter more than the system he/she studies in determining his/her effectiveness in a fight."
Chris is using it in the sense of "within the culture of koryu arts, a value exists which states that the preservation of the system matters more than whatever benefits the individuals practicing it might gain from that practice."
The first is an empirical statement about which real world factors determine a certain outcome. The second is a value judgment about what outcomes are most important. Someone could absolutely believe both statements with no contradiction whatsoever.
That said, the modes for arguing with one of those statements or the other are very different.
Celtic_crippler's proposal is a hypothesis about physical reality. As a start towards disproving it you'd need to gather a decent number of untrained individuals, measure their natural physical and mental attributes, randomly assign them into groups to train in one art or another, then test each one in matches against individuals with corresponding natural attributes from one of the other training groups. If students of one art consistently outperformed students of another art in these tests to a statistically significant degree, then there would be evidence that the system did matter. It does get more complicated, because the original hypothesis was that the individual attributes matter more than the system, not that the system doesn't matter at all. That leaves open the possibility that the individual accounts for 55% of the variation in the final outcome and the system counts for 45% .. or it could be 90%/10% ... or something in-between. If you really wanted to examine the idea scientifically you would need some careful experimental design and statistical tests to determine the relative proportions of the influence of the individual versus the system.
Chris's thesis is a value judgment about what goals are important in a given context. There's no scientific study that can possibly prove or disprove it. On the other hand, folks are free to disagree with that value judgment, even if they are not operating within the same context. I can say "within my religion, x is a virtue and y is a sin and that's just the way it is." However other folks are free to tell me "those are terrible values - there's nothing wrong with y and no one should think that x is a good thing." If I'm going to have a conversation with those folks, we're going to have to find some higher justification for our positions than just saying "that's the way it is." (Chris is also making an empirical statement that the overwhelming majority of koryu practitioners share this particular value judgment, but it seems that the main thrust of his argument is that the value is the correct one in this particular context. Chris, please correct me if I am misreading you on this.)
I have some more thoughts regarding both celtic_crippler's and Chris's arguments, but I don't want to write a book in one post - it makes it difficult for folks to respond to all my points and I'd also like to see if we can get a little more clarity in the discussion based on what I've said so far.
The student is always more important than the system, style or art if for no other reason than this; No students...no system, no style, no art.
There are a lot of styles of Baguazhang in China and some are pretty darn good but they are dying out because there are no students. Taijiquan as a martial art is dying due to a lack of serious students who are interested in the martial arts of it or due to those that do not have the patients to learn it so they try shortcuts and basically you end up with something like Karate-Taiji which is still not taijiquan.
Also pick a style, any style and you find some who are very good at it and some who are not and they can be training with the same teacher for the same amount of time same age. Some train harder, some are just gifted and others have found the art that fits them mentally and or physically. Some just like the mystique or the mythology which surrounds and art and really never get it.
A person may be horrible at Karate and incredible at Aikido...or they may excel at both or be horrible at both they may just not be driven to train or it may be martial arts is not their thing or it could be they stumble on a Savate school or a JKD school or a Systema School or a Judo school and their one of the best there is.