Proof the Individual Matters More than the System, Style, or Art?

[Chris Parker]

Brian, sorry, mate, but that's the reality of Koryu. And if you don't understand or see that, then I'd question what understanding of Koryu you have... this same idea is promoted by every Koryu teacher I have met, or talked to, or engaged with, or studied under, it is what is promoted within Koryu communities, it is the way they work. You are aware that the Bujinkan is not Koryu, and this is one of the reasons. But, really, I am one of the people training in them... and I am telling you what the reality is. I haven't romanticized it at all, when it comes down to it. Yes, some students will come, and others will go, there's no difference there... but that's not really relevant. If anything, it'd show that the student isn't the focus... if they were, perhaps more students would stay.

There is no need to create any kind of feeling of being "special".

Again, Brian, this is just reality, regardless of what anyone outside thinks.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Your fine to feel that way Chris. It is just not reality. Let's just say while I have a firm, sound understanding of Koryu I do understand why you are promoting this view. It however is just not reality! We will just have to agree to disagree and move on our merry ways. No hard feelings but your not going to convince people on this one. Even then I respect that you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Chris Parker]

Brian, I'm going to be blunt here. It's not my opinion. It's not what I want Koryu to be like. It's not my desire to make them seem "special". It's not me romanticizing anything about them. It is, simply and purely, the way Koryu are. If you think this is opinion, you really, really don't understand Koryu. It's backed up by, well, all other Koryu practitioners. It's backed up by the article I linked earlier. It's backed up by the other articles on Koryu.com. It's backed up by threads such as this one: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95634. It really, really is the way Koryu are. I don't need to convince anyone, you, Xue, or anyone else. What I'm doing isn't to convince, it's to educate. I'm telling you the way things are. It is reality, whether it matches your views or not. But, if it doesn't match your view on Koryu, then you don't understand Koryu. And you do realize you're trying to tell a Koryu practitioner what practicing Koryu is about??? Does that sound like a realistic approach to take?

So, really, Brian, it is reality. And, bluntly, that's the end of the story there. If you disagree, you absolutely don't have a "firm, sound understanding" of Koryu.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

As I said above Chris I really understand why you are promoting this view. However romanticised it may be. You can say this is the way it is and all Koryu practitioners agree with me. However, the reality is that Koryu are just a group of individuals practicing an old martial system. That's it, really nothing more even if they want it to be. They may want it to be more in keeping with an idea of specialness, group conscious but the reality is that is what they are. Nothing more or less. A group of individuals practicing a martial system. As a group of individuals practicing a martial system I have all the respect for them in the world! Now I know a Koryu practitioner and he does not hold the same view as you. I think in the end you are doing a disservice to someone else and how they may perceive the Koryu arts of Japan. I think you make the Koryu arts sound kind've cult like and I do not think that is your intent or how you want them perceived by the general public. The bottom line is individuals practice martial arts. That is the reality! There is no way around it. In the end it comes down to the individuals and their practice even if the group process is very prominent! That is just the way it is and wanting it or believing it to be another way will not make it so!

Let's just say you can have your view but not everyone will agree irregardless of your point of view.

Now we have kind've taken over this thread from Celtic Crippler's orgional intent which was to show that two people can have the same training and yet not end up being as good. The individual in the end is what matters. Their mental, physical and spiritual make up determines who they will become as a martial practitioner. In the end it really will always come down to the individual practitioner!!! Jon "Bones" Jones or Bubba show this to be true!

 

[Cyriacus]

I feel like i should reiterate something i said earlier...
Chris seems to be, unless im mistaken, addressing the importance of the art itself and the student themself in that format specifically.
Brian seems to be, unless im mistaken, addressing how people use the stuff theyve learnt and whether or not the system itself is as important as the person and the teaching.

From my point of view, youre discussing two different things.

 

[Chris Parker]

As I said above Chris I really understand why you are promoting this view. However romanticised it may be. You can say this is the way it is and all Koryu practitioners agree with me. However, the reality is that Koryu are just a group of individuals practicing an old martial system. That's it, really nothing more even if they want it to be. They may want it to be more in keeping with an idea of specialness, group conscious but the reality is that is what they are. Nothing more or less. A group of individuals practicing a martial system. As a group of individuals practicing a martial system I have all the respect for them in the world! Now I know a Koryu practitioner and he does not hold the same view as you. I think in the end you are doing a disservice to someone else and how they may perceive the Koryu arts of Japan. I think you make the Koryu arts sound kind've cult like and I do not think that is your intent or how you want them perceived by the general public. The bottom line is individuals practice martial arts. That is the reality! There is no way around it. In the end it comes down to the individuals and their practice even if the group process is very prominent! That is just the way it is and wanting it or believing it to be another way will not make it so!

Let's just say you can have your view but not everyone will agree irregardless of your point of view.

Now we have kind've taken over this thread from Celtic Crippler's orgional intent which was to show that two people can have the same training and yet not end up being as good. The individual in the end is what matters. Their mental, physical and spiritual make up determines who they will become as a martial practitioner. In the end it really will always come down to the individual practitioner!!! Jon "Bones" Jones or Bubba show this to be true!

Brian, no. You have completely missed the point, and are showing no clue about Koryu. You know one guy who trains Koryu, and you're basing your comments on that? Mate, I'm coming from a number of years involvement, and discussing this with teachers and practitioners of a large number of Koryu... I've shown other people (again, Koryu practitioners and teachers) saying the same thing. How on earth are you thinking you have any justification in saying that I'm "doing a disservice" to them... when you're the one who is saying my (genuine, personally involved) take on things isn't accurate... really, mate, I know you like to be diplomatic, but here, you're just plain wrong.

Say, here's another example:http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/93854-The-purpose-of-the-ryu

Brian, you're wrong. That's all there is to it. There is no "cult" mentality (I'm sorely tempted to make other comments here), and don't see how you can read that into what I've said. You don't get it. That's fine, I said it wasn't easy to understand, especially when you come from a background that is so removed (as you do), but please, stop trying to tell me what my own practice is about. You've gotten it wrong consistently.

I feel like i should reiterate something i said earlier...
Chris seems to be, unless im mistaken, addressing the importance of the art itself and the student themself in that format specifically.
Brian seems to be, unless im mistaken, addressing how people use the stuff theyve learnt and whether or not the system itself is as important as the person and the teaching.

From my point of view, youre discussing two different things.

And, in that, Brian is wrong, and has missed entirely what has been said, when it comes to Koryu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let me ask a question... where in this post does it specifically mention Koryu or for that matter where does is specifically mention ant Martial art as part of the question?

Let me give a little background in the event you do not follow TUF on Fx. The current UFC Lightweight Champion, Jon “Bones” Jones is one of the coaches for a team of fighters competing for a UFC contract. He picked a fighter for his team from the gym in which he trains MMA, Robert “Bubba” McDaniel. Whether out of loyalty or perhaps the thought that Bubba was qualified to win fights for him because they trained together outside the UFC, Jones picked Bubba for his team and quite simply, Bubba has not performed well at all.

I was thinking the dichotomy between Jon “Bones” Jones and his team mate Bubba’s skill and performance in the octagon is a great example of how “what” and “where” one trains is not nearly as important in producing a quality martial artist as the individual themselves.

Plenty of debates have been waged throughout the centuries over what system, style, or art is the best and I believe the obvious answer is all of them and none of them. They all offer the opportunity for improvement; however, the most important variable in that equation is the individual.

Thoughts?

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, and likely Chris will tell me I am..... but it seems to be a fairly general question about "all" styles not specific styles and with that in mind I will say once again, and for the last time

The style, and I don't care what style you throw at me, is not as important as the students it teaches. Admittedly there needs to be good students and I do not feel that you should water down or make a style easier just for the sake of propagating the name because if you do that the style is just as dead as if it is no longer being taught.

If a style, any style, has the overall belief that it is more important than its students then it likely will die and it may actually deserve to die since in my opinion it is all just collective ego at work. And if that is OK for a given style then so be it, but it does not have the fight to force its beliefs, feelings or views on an other style since it does not share their history and in many cases the culture from which that style came.

Now with all that said I have no idea what Koryu is or where it came from, I have done some little bit of research since this came up and It appears to be a lot younger than many styles out there but based on traditional Samurai training and Budo, of course this could be wrong since I am only getting this form 2 websites and one seems to refer a lot to what it is based on but not where it comes from

http://www.koryu-bujutsu.com/

http://www.koryu.com/

However I would like to learn more so if someone could point me in the direction of a good link or book I would appreciate it

 

[Tgace]

Let me ask a question... where in this post does it specifically mention Koryu or for that matter where does is specifically mention ant Martial art as part of the question?



It seems to me, and I could be wrong, and likely Chris will tell me I am..... but it seems to be a fairly general question about "all" styles not specific styles and with that in mind I will say once again, and for the last time

The style, and I don't care what style you throw at me, is not as important as the students it teaches. Admittedly there needs to be good students and I do not feel that you should water down or make a style easier just for the sake of propagating the name because if you do that the style is just as dead as if it is no longer being taught.

If a style, any style, has the overall belief that it is more important than its students then it likely will die and it may actually deserve to die since in my opinion it is all just collective ego at work. And if that is OK for a given style then so be it, but it does not have the fight to force its beliefs, feelings or views on an other style since it does not share their history and in many cases the culture from which that style came.

Now with all that said I have no idea what Koryu is or where it came from, I have done some little bit of research since this came up and It appears to be a lot younger than many styles out there but based on traditional Samurai training and Budo, of course this could be wrong since I am only getting this form 2 websites and one seems to refer a lot to what it is based on but not where it comes from

http://www.koryu-bujutsu.com/

http://www.koryu.com/

However I would like to learn more so if someone could point me in the direction of a good link or book I would appreciate it

If I were a gambling man I'd say this article has some sort of "roots" into why he's so wrapped up in the issue:

http://www.hemelbudo.org.uk/Articles/WhatKoryuBujutsu.pdf

 

[Chris Parker]

To take that in order, the OP doesn't specifically mention Koryu... it offers "proof" that, regardless of the art, it's the individual that is important. In fact, that in all cases, the "most important variable" is the individual. I offered examples where that wasn't the case, based on the last word of the OP ("Thoughts?"). Then it went from there when I was questioned to provide reasons... and when yourself (and later, Brian) didn't understand the context of Koryu, and therefore disagreed.

When it comes to your research, forget the first link entirely. It's a modern amalgam of modern, dominantly eclectic systems and practitioners who don't have any connection to Koryu, and are using the name to give themselves a feeling that they have some connection to some imagined Samurai mythos. They have no clue. Koryu.com, on the other hand, is a good starting place. But, in essence, Koryu are Japanese arts that have continued unbroken to today, and have their foundation date prior to the Meiji Restoration (1868, approximately), although there can be some contention (some only use the term to refer to arts that predate the Edo period, which was from about 1608 onwards, and tend to constantly use the term "Koryu Bujutsu" to describe what they're meaning... their take is that only arts from a time of true warfare make the cut... but that gets into some other complicated ideas).

Koryu are the systems that were learnt by Samurai. Not arts that are "based" on it.

EDIT: Sorry, Xue, forgot to give some further suggestions... the books from Koryu.com (Sword and Spirit, Koryu Bujutsu, Keiko Shokon) are good starts... as are books like Prof. Karl Friday's Hired Swords and Legacies of the Sword. I'd also strongly recommend Old School (and Dueling with O'Sensei) from Ellis Amdur (second editions coming soon...). And right now, a new book has just been released (waiting for my copy now, actually) by Dr David Hall, the Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts that's getting great reviews. Other books, such as the ones from Serge Mol, can give good overviews, but have some issues. But when it all comes down to it, to really understand it, you need to participate in it.

 

[Chris Parker]

If I were a gambling man I'd say this article has some sort of "roots" into why he's so wrapped up in the issue:

http://www.hemelbudo.org.uk/Articles/WhatKoryuBujutsu.pdf

You'd lose, then. Budo Taijutsu is absolutely not Koryu, the Bujinkan is not Koryu, neither is the Genbukan, the Jinenkan, or anything else. Some of the Ryu that are contained in them are, but they are not passed on as such, and really, in their current guise, aren't Koryu. That's not where my Koryu training lies. And I have yet to come into contact with any Bujinkan member who knows or understands the first thing about Koryu, or what the distinction is (why the X-Kan's aren't Koryu).

 

[punisher73]

I think the basis of this argument is more cultural. The chinese changed things and the okinawans changed things to fit the student. As such long ago, classes were VERY small and taught almost one on one with the instructor being able to adapt the material to the student with their strengths. In Japan, there is "-do" and kata for MANY activities, there is A WAY that things have to be done. The student wasn't the primary focus it was the art.

So, if your focus is on self-defense then the student should matter more than the art. If you are passing on history and preserving a method than the art is more important than the student. Neither approach is "right" or "wrong", it just is what it is with different focuses.

It reminds me of a filipino martial art I read about one time in a magazine. The art was created by a man that was missing an arm. He took his previous training and adapted it for himself and his limitations. He then taught the art to others. I was always baffled by that, why as a person with 2 arms would I want to learn an art limiting myself to only one arm? So, in this case we can see both sides of the student being more important than the art. First, adapting the material based on a limitation, but then also why limit students that don't have that limitation.

 

[Chris Parker]

If I were a gambling man I'd say this article has some sort of "roots" into why he's so wrapped up in the issue:

http://www.hemelbudo.org.uk/Articles/WhatKoryuBujutsu.pdf

Just to highlight why this is a bad article, it makes numerous errors, starting with mistaking what the Skoss' (the husband and wife who run Koryu.com) were actually saying. There is a large effort to point out that, in the Bujinkan, "Ninjutsu" is only a small part... without realizing that the Skoss' were using it (as many, including many in the Bujinkan do) as a basic overall term for the Bujinkan, and it's teaching methods. Today, they'd most likely use the term "Budo Taijutsu"... or possibly still "Ninjutsu", as their article came about due to the large number of times they were asked about "Ninjutsu as a Koryu" from people asking about the Bujinkan. Next, there are mistakes in what Koryu are, how they are defined, and so on... there is a giant mistake in trying to link Akiyama Yoshin Ryu to the Takagi Yoshin Ryu (completely unrelated), mistakes in terminology ("yarijutsu"? The proper term is "sojutsu"), as well as some major gaps in the understanding of exactly where the two primary arts he talks about really come from (in their present form).

In other words, it misses the point completely, and makes major mistakes throughout, rather than taking the time to understand what they were being told. So no, that article isn't really anything to do with my position here.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Chris,

I respect your opinion and your willingness to debate on the internet as you are a master at it. However, I think I will instead of looking at internet posts or reading books will base my opinion from contact with friends living and training in Japan and of course my own travel to that country. Some of these friends who also not only speak but can read the language and while most are in the Bujinkan and may practice another art as well. The one friend works there, speaks the langauage and also only studies in a Koryu. No offense but his opinion is golden to me. He is just a guy an individual per se studying an old Japanese system and he really likes it too. However he is a realist and sees it for what it is. Often I find irregardless of where the system originates that someone who practices it outside of the country tries to be more, do more or over romantices their training than someone who is actually training there. That is cool we all have our romantic wishes. Everyone does!

Xue is right in that if a style believes it is more overall important than the students then it is a work of ego or collective group ego.


Now if we look at the origional OP's idea regarding Bubba and Jones it goes to the idea that both have the same training yet one is better than the other. Now I am not saying a group or teachers or system is not important in an individuals growth. However, in the end in any circumstance or situation it will come down to the individual. Surely you can see this? If you are attacked tomorrow, you the individual will have to deal with the situation in some manner. Your choice to train in the Martial Sciences will hopefully benefit you. However, your actions in that moment will be what determines your fate. That is similar to when Bubba steps in the cage. His actions determine his fate whether he wins or loses. His choice of who he trains with and how hard he trains and his natural individual abilities determine the outcome. Jones can give advice from the sidelines but Bubba the individual has to determine whether he takes it or not or even if he has the ability to hear it. Bubba the individual is the one that has to process everything and in turn determines what happens. Because in the end it comes down to the individual and their abilities and skill sets. iI is kind've like at work. You may have graduated from the best University in your field. Trained with the best as well. However, when you are at your job if you the individual are not working hard and doing a good job your going to lose that job! You might have a friend at work that can bail you out a few times but in the end if you do not take care of business your going to be unemployed. You can even have a collective group working towards a goal but in that group each individual has to do their job. Otherwise with whatever they are doing it can all fall apart. A group is only as strong as the sum of it parts. Those parts are individuals! Hope the clarity helps.

 

[pgsmith]

While I have no desire to get involved in any of the back and forth that is going on here, I do want to add this link to a brief article written by Dave Lowry for the owners of koryu.com. It was written as a final admonition to the large number of people that were trying to join their dojo. In my opinion, it does a good job of summing up the attitude of all of the koryu that I've been associated with. It also gives a glimpse into why some people call those of us that practice the koryu elitists and cult members. So You Want to Join the Ryu?

 

[harlan]

It would be nice if this conversation could get past the back and forth of 'I'm right'. Not saying I have the answer, of course,

1. The original post header is a absolute statement that is a 'generalization', and practically by definition it is bound to be proven wrong. It is open to being so if even ONE case can be shown.

2. That case has been shown: koryu.

3. Now...when it comes to any martial art who am I going to listen to on this point? Someone who says he practices it, and posts links to koryu sites that seem to have some veracity? Or, someone that doesn't practice but shares second-hand the views of koryu acquaintences? Really, both are anecdoctal, and I should think we are above ad hominem slurs.

I'd restate the original statement, maybe even a poll. Something like 'In your experience, what is the mainstream thinking of others in your art XXX..'

We all only know what we know, until we know more. I'll say this, I don't study any established 'koryu', and yet find some similarities in POV as I study my plebian 'ko-ryu' and 'goju-ryu'. But...that is just me. It's the student's take..what they are willing to do/be. It's all chicken or egg...

(sorry about the bold...can't figure out what I did there...)

 

[Tgace]

It would be nice if this conversation could get past the back and forth of 'I'm right'. Not saying I have the answer, of course,

1. The original post header is a absolute statement that is a 'generalization', and practically by definition it is bound to be proven wrong. If is open to being so if even ONE case can be shown.

2. That case has been shown: koryu.

3. Now...when it comes to any martial art who am I going to listen to on this point? Someone who says he practices it, and posits links to koryu sites that seem to have some veracity? Or, someone that doesn't practice but shares second-hand the views of koryu acquaintences? Really, both are anecdoctal.

I'd restate the original statement, maybe even a poll. Something like 'In your experience, what is the mainstream thinking of others in your art XXX..'

We all only know what we know, until we know more. I'll say this, I don't study any established 'koryu', and yet find some similarities in POV as I study my plebian 'ko-ryu' and 'goju-ryu'. But...that is just me. It's the student's take..what they are willing to do/be. It's all chicken or egg...

I dont think thats the case in this thread.

The OP stated that two guys with the same training from the same school have different results in the ring. He states that he believes that thus is because, when it comes to victory in the ring, in combat..etc, what ultimately matters more than the "system" is the person implementing the system. Any system that teaches practical techniques can be MADE effective by the right person.

How this got spun off into "koryu" I don't know, but Im guessing there are person/political/"system" reasons behind it.

 

[harlan]

Certainly. But the thread title is what it is, and I didn't read anything in the original post that (to my mind) ameliorated/amended it.

 

[Tgace]

Certainly. But the thread title is what it is, and I didn't read anything in the original post that (to my mind) ameliorated/amended it.

Are we discussing the "title" of the thread or the first post in the thread?

 

[harlan]

I think the thread has gone off on a tangent. Interesting, but still I don't think what was original intended. Unfortunately, the thread title is what it is, and so the discussion.

I do think the emphasis on the first post was about producing a quality fighter, and whether it was the style or the individual that was more important. (Seems obvious to me...koryu! Wait...I mean...the individual. )

Are we discussing the "title" of the thread or the first post in the thread?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think the thread has gone off on a tangent. Interesting, but still I don't think what was original intended. Unfortunately, the thread title is what it is, and so the discussion.

I do think the emphasis on the first post was about producing a quality fighter, and whether it was the style or the individual that was more important. (Seems obvious to me...koryu! Wait...I mean...the individual. )

Harlan I like your style. Your cool!