9th degree promotion from a man who died 2 years ago

[isshinryuronin]

in another thread you and I discussed my suggestion that the dan rankings be eliminated and only two black belt ranks ought to exist: non-teacher, and teacher. Beyond that, there would be no higher promotions. This is a perfect example of what my idea is intended to eliminate. I know that nobody will adopt it, at least not on a wide scale use. But this is why I came up with it.

In the early days of karate, there were just a few ranks like you describe. While on mainland Japan, the kyu and dan colored and black belt system of Judo master Kano was adopted by Shotokan in the 1920's (the Japanese love to be organized and standardized), this did not catch on in Okinawa (more independent types) until post World War II. Prior to that, the experts had only 4 instructor ranks: sensei, renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi (these titles are still with us today.)

The difference between then and now is that these titles, as well as 8th, 9th, and 10th degree black, had real street cred back then. Why? Because they were not given out by some other guy who promoted himself, a buddy, or some guy who charged money for them. They were given out by a board of recognized and unimpeachable masters who stood at the apex of the karate world. Guys who studied from the legendary godfathers of karate, like Bushi Matsumura, Higashionna Kanryo, Kyan Chotoku, and Itosu Anko. Their students like Miyagi, Funakoshi, Chibana and Mabuni, among others, were those that made up the board.

While the organization, name, and members changed over the years, its function and credibility did not. So the judges were not like Judge Judy (a reality TV judge), but more like the U.S. Supreme Court.

Note that these board members represented multiple Okinawan styles. So there was no hegemony. To become a master, you had to be accepted by the other masters (from competing styles.) Zenryo Shimabukuro, Hohan Soken, Chojun Miyagi and Tatsuo Shimabuku (as well as his younger brother, Eizo) received their highest ranks in this way. You were accepted by your peers.

This system is still, more or less (mostly less but still credible), in place today in Okinawa and Japan. In the USA and no doubt elsewhere, there are some organizations, especially those with strong ties to Okinawa/Japan, that carry on this tradition of credibility and authenticity. But for the most part, self-promotion and bogus masters are running amok and give karate a bad reputation.

So, going back to that original thread of "What is a black belt", I think we can set some objective standards, a fairly high bar, to judge quality from crap. Whether the pretenders and uninformed like it or not.

 

[JR 137]

In the early days of karate, there were just a few ranks like you describe. While on mainland Japan, the kyu and dan colored and black belt system of Judo master Kano was adopted by Shotokan in the 1920's (the Japanese love to be organized and standardized), this did not catch on in Okinawa (more independent types) until post World War II. Prior to that, the experts had only 4 instructor ranks: sensei, renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi (these titles are still with us today.)

The difference between then and now is that these titles, as well as 8th, 9th, and 10th degree black, had real street cred back then. Why? Because they were not given out by some other guy who promoted himself, a buddy, or some guy who charged money for them. They were given out by a board of recognized and unimpeachable masters who stood at the apex of the karate world. Guys who studied from the legendary godfathers of karate, like Bushi Matsumura, Higashionna Kanryo, Kyan Chotoku, and Itosu Anko. Their students like Miyagi, Funakoshi, Chibana and Mabuni, among others, were those that made up the board.

While the organization, name, and members changed over the years, its function and credibility did not. So the judges were not like Judge Judy (a reality TV judge), but more like the U.S. Supreme Court.

Note that these board members represented multiple Okinawan styles. So there was no hegemony. To become a master, you had to be accepted by the other masters (from competing styles.) Zenryo Shimabukuro, Hohan Soken, Chojun Miyagi and Tatsuo Shimabuku (as well as his younger brother, Eizo) received their highest ranks in this way. You were accepted by your peers.

This system is still, more or less (mostly less but still credible), in place today in Okinawa and Japan. In the USA and no doubt elsewhere, there are some organizations, especially those with strong ties to Okinawa/Japan, that carry on this tradition of credibility and authenticity. But for the most part, self-promotion and bogus masters are running amok and give karate a bad reputation.

So, going back to that original thread of "What is a black belt", I think we can set some objective standards, a fairly high bar, to judge quality from crap. Whether the pretenders and uninformed like it or not.

As a point of order, Miyagi never held any formal dan rank during his lifetime. He was given a black belt from the emperor of Japan’s designee or the emperor himself (I’m not sure of exactly who/title). He was simply a black belt. And he never promoted anyone to black belt nor any other rank; he felt that only a person of the status of his promoter could award rank. Some have said he was working on a rank system when he died, but he never finished it and awarded any rank.

Miyagi’s top students promoted him to 10th dan (I think that rank) after he passed away. They then promoted each other to various dan ranks according to their pecking order. Miyagi also never formally nor publicly named a successor. Several claimed he named them successor however. The Miyagi family gave Meitoku Yagi Miyagi’s belt and gi several years after Miyagi’s death, signifying him as the successor of sorts.

I’m not familiar with the backgrounds of the others you mentioned; just Miyagi’s. It’s easy and common to put Miyagi into a group like that. He was an outlier in regards to rank.

 

[Headhunter]

Well, I will say that putting someone’s signature on a certificate after that person is already dead is pretty bad form. Putting his name as a reference to lineage would be fine, but the signature implies the fellow was there to sign it. I’m guessing there was a pile of pre-signed certificates, or even certs that were pre-printed with the fellow’s electronic signature on it and the protocol and agreement was that these were used for promotions and it was understood. Perhaps those ought to have been destroyed when the fellow became deceased. But if someone else actually took a pen and signed Mr. Trejo’s signature after Mr. Trejo was dead, well that is fraud plain and simple, there is no way around it.

Personally, I think the Kenpo world has gotten so twisted around with this kind of thing, it just doesn’t surprise me. Glad I’m no longer a part of it.

@isshinryuronin, in another thread you and I discussed my suggestion that the dan rankings be eliminated and only two black belt ranks ought to exist: non-teacher, and teacher. Beyond that, there would be no higher promotions. This is a perfect example of what my idea is intended to eliminate. I know that nobody will adopt it, at least not on a wide scale use. But this is why I came up with it.

I agree with the last part. To me in Kenpo any dan rank after third is just artificial. I understand third dan is considered a head instructor so that’s fair but after that they become more for show than anything. Used for promotion to sell your school to uneducated people who believe that having a high rank dan means they are superior when in fact in my experience I’ve found the lower dan ranks a lot more competent and can actually fight and mix it up while the higher dans prefer to stand around talking. My personal view is I’ll take a third When I deserve it but after that I’m done with testing for them. Having a head instructor rank is a good thing to have under your belt but after that I have no use for any other rank

 

[Headhunter]

I hold rank in Kenpo and one of my certs has Ed Parker Sr's signature on it as well as my instructor at the time, and witnesses. Parker was dead long before I tested for rank. I never thought of my rank as not being legitimate.

I don’t know about your rank being legitimate or not but if Ed Parker didn’t sign your certificate then his signature shouldn’t be on it because it wasn’t him who put his signature to it. It’s a forgery and by doing that (not saying you do but others certainly will) people can go around waving the certificate “look Ed Parker promoted me I’m one of Ed Parker’s black belts “ or whatever the rank was.

now that doesn’t mean you weren’t deserving of it and I never said that of the gentleman in question either but using a dead mans signature and making out he endorsed the promotion. That’s forgery plain and simple. Not your fault it’s the fault of whoever did that

 

[isshinryuronin]

As a point of order, Miyagi never held any formal dan rank during his lifetime. He was given a black belt from the emperor of Japan’s designee or the emperor himself (I’m not sure of exactly who/title). He was simply a black belt. And he never promoted anyone to black belt nor any other rank; he felt that only a person of the status of his promoter could award rank. Some have said he was working on a rank system when he died, but he never finished it and awarded any rank.

Miyagi’s top students promoted him to 10th dan (I think that rank) after he passed away. They then promoted each other to various dan ranks according to their pecking order. Miyagi also never formally nor publicly named a successor. Several claimed he named them successor however. The Miyagi family gave Meitoku Yagi Miyagi’s belt and gi several years after Miyagi’s death, signifying him as the successor of sorts.

I’m not familiar with the backgrounds of the others you mentioned; just Miyagi’s. It’s easy and common to put Miyagi into a group like that. He was an outlier in regards to rank.

There is no doubt much of your story is true, but keep in mind all styles, especially Okinawan, have myths and legends about their history. As stated, basically no one in Okinawa had a black belt prior in WWII (maybe a black sash), although Funakoshi awarded karate's 1st black belts in Japan in 1924. I read that Miyagi was the 1st awarded Kyoshi (expert/master instructor), by the 1st governing body of Okinawan masters (of which he was a member) so he definitely had peer approval for that honor.

The masters, themselves, like Goju's Miyagi and Yamaguchi, did not concern themselves too much with dan belt ranks - that was something for the students. When they did give themselves dan ranks, it was with the approval of the council of masters (the Butoku Kai or its subsequent incarnations.) This was really done, as Funakoshi was among the 1st to realize, to fit in with the Japanese way of conforming with the other already established martial arts. This is true of the Okinawans wearing a gi, as well. As the saying goes, "To get along, you have to go along." This is very true in Japan.

I think the main point is those early masters held their ranks and titles with the consent of the other masters. NO ONE questioned these guy's credentials as they were given by the highest authorities possible - the creators of what we know as modern karate.

 

[dvcochran]

There is no doubt much of your story is true, but keep in mind all styles, especially Okinawan, have myths and legends about their history. As stated, basically no one in Okinawa had a black belt prior in WWII (maybe a black sash), although Funakoshi awarded karate's 1st black belts in Japan in 1924. I read that Miyagi was the 1st awarded Kyoshi (expert/master instructor), by the 1st governing body of Okinawan masters (of which he was a member) so he definitely had peer approval for that honor.

The masters, themselves, like Goju's Miyagi and Yamaguchi, did not concern themselves too much with dan belt ranks - that was something for the students. When they did give themselves dan ranks, it was with the approval of the council of masters (the Butoku Kai or its subsequent incarnations.) This was really done, as Funakoshi was among the 1st to realize, to fit in with the Japanese way of conforming with the other already established martial arts. This is true of the Okinawans wearing a gi, as well. As the saying goes, "To get along, you have to go along." This is very true in Japan.

I think the main point is those early masters held their ranks and titles with the consent of the other masters. NO ONE questioned these guy's credentials as they were given by the highest authorities possible - the creators of what we know as modern karate.

I hope I can say this without offense. I have immense respect for all the names you listed as well as many others. However, you are talking about people from 120 years ago. Pioneers? Yes. Legends? Without a doubt. Many, many things have changed since then in the martial arts world. One of particular note is the number of practitioners. Structure and organization have become increasingly important. Even with the significant increases in both, we all know there are ghosts in the machine that allow for hacks and unqualified people to claim high ranks.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I hope I can say this without offense. I have immense respect for all the names you listed as well as many others. However, you are talking about people from 120 years ago. Pioneers? Yes. Legends? Without a doubt. Many, many things have changed since then in the martial arts world. One of particular note is the number of practitioners. Structure and organization have become increasingly important. Even with the significant increases in both, we all know there are ghosts in the machine that allow for hacks and unqualified people to claim high ranks.

You have no argument from me. I think the explosion in karate's popularity throughout the western world was something the pre-1950's masters never anticipated. Therefore, they did not design the structure and organization needed to control the quality of the art on a worldwide scale with millions of practitioners. I'm not sure structure and organization has become more important over the years, but certainly has become more fragmented and in most cases, less rigorous. Additionally, with so many schools and instructors across the land, the community is not as close knit as it once was and one's teaching reputation amongst one's peers became less important. At least, that's my take on it.

Even back in the 1920's and 30's when karate first became popularized, a number of masters had two teaching curriculum: One for the general public, and one for their hand-picked core students. This held true into the 1950's when U.S. servicemen based in Okinawa received instruction. Not only were they the "general public", they were not even Okinawan, and were there for only a short time. So the karate they brought back and that was spread around the world was not the "real" (for lack of a better word) karate. Who knew at that time that, before long, millions of Westerners and many thousands of schools would be engaged in it? This unexpected phenomenon, I think, caught the masters unprepared (or perhaps they just didn't care what those Westerners did????) Anyway, IMO these factors all combined and set the stage for our current state of affairs.

 

[dvcochran]

You have no argument from me. I think the explosion in karate's popularity throughout the western world was something the pre-1950's masters never anticipated. Therefore, they did not design the structure and organization needed to control the quality of the art on a worldwide scale with millions of practitioners. I'm not sure structure and organization has become more important over the years, but certainly has become more fragmented and in most cases, less rigorous. Additionally, with so many schools and instructors across the land, the community is not as close knit as it once was and one's teaching reputation amongst one's peers became less important. At least, that's my take on it.

Even back in the 1920's and 30's when karate first became popularized, a number of masters had two teaching curriculum: One for the general public, and one for their hand-picked core students. This held true into the 1950's when U.S. servicemen based in Okinawa received instruction. Not only were they the "general public", they were not even Okinawan, and were there for only a short time. So the karate they brought back and that was spread around the world was not the "real" (for lack of a better word) karate. Who knew at that time that, before long, millions of Westerners and many thousands of schools would be engaged in it? This unexpected phenomenon, I think, caught the masters unprepared (or perhaps they just didn't care what those Westerners did????) Anyway, IMO these factors all combined and set the stage for our current state of affairs.

I don't at all doubt that happened in some instances. Whether it was intentional by the instructor or just from a lack of available time by the enlisted people. There is no question that much of the early western MA expansion was influenced by military that received some degree (all or partial?) of training over seas. I don't know how much I buy into the left out training theory as a diminishing factor however. It leans awfully hard toward 'secret mystic skills' like in the old 70's Kung Fu movies and such. It is not mentioned nearly as much but there was positive western influence on eastern MA's during the timeframe you mention. Plus in the 100 years or so I am certain any such skills have been refined/improved or outright supplanted.
It should also be noted that there was also a sea of eastern instructors that migrated west in the 40's - 60's. I think this somewhat unbalances the equation of the western expansion by partially trained military instructors.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don't at all doubt that happened in some instances. Whether it was intentional by the instructor or just from a lack of available time by the enlisted people. There is no question that much of the early western MA expansion was influenced by military that received some degree (all or partial?) of training over seas. I don't know how much I buy into the left out training theory as a diminishing factor however. It leans awfully hard toward 'secret mystic skills' like in the old 70's Kung Fu movies and such. It is not mentioned nearly as much but there was positive western influence on eastern MA's during the timeframe you mention. Plus in the 100 years or so I am certain any such skills have been refined/improved or outright supplanted.
It should also be noted that there was also a sea of eastern instructors that migrated west in the 40's - 60's. I think this somewhat unbalances the equation of the western expansion by partially trained military instructors.

There was nothing "mystic" about what the Okinawans kept from the public. To be accepted in schools and become standardized, many techniques were left out or were redesigned for safety and ease of teaching to large numbers. Thank goodness there were a number of Orientals that came to the USA with not only a fuller understanding of the techniques, but of the discipline and respect typical of the original TMA methodology. But compared to the number of Westerners opening schools in the 60's and 70's, I think the number was not that great.

To get away from the discussion of content, and back to quality - numbers and commercialization, and overall lowering of the bar (seen in all phases of our culture) is the new reality and must be accepted. It is the tradeoff between quantity and quality. In the end, the determining factors are the instructors' training, diligence, sincerity and respect for the art that will equate into quality of teaching. Bogus experts will still be out there for the unsuspecting, but we can only be responsible for ourselves.

 

[dvcochran]

There was nothing "mystic" about what the Okinawans kept from the public. To be accepted in schools and become standardized, many techniques were left out or were redesigned for safety and ease of teaching to large numbers. Thank goodness there were a number of Orientals that came to the USA with not only a fuller understanding of the techniques, but of the discipline and respect typical of the original TMA methodology. But compared to the number of Westerners opening schools in the 60's and 70's, I think the number was not that great.

To get away from the discussion of content, and back to quality - numbers and commercialization, and overall lowering of the bar (seen in all phases of our culture) is the new reality and must be accepted. It is the tradeoff between quantity and quality. In the end, the determining factors are the instructors' training, diligence, sincerity and respect for the art that will equate into quality of teaching. Bogus experts will still be out there for the unsuspecting, but we can only be responsible for ourselves.

Agree, but there a considerable portion of the responsibility is on the student. Willingness and commitment go a very long way.