Pressure Point Controvsery

[MasterArtMason]

This is one of the reason it got such a bad rap too! There are a lot of people claiming this knowledge who do not know much of anything. Gives the real guys a bad name. Aside from the "kyusho" explaination there also needs to be real world explanations of why and how something works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Truth goes through 3 stages, first it is laughed at, then it is violently opposed, finally is accepted as self evident. I believe the pressure point sciences are finally approaching the 3rd stage. The reason for the controversy is simply. Big egos, poor marketing, and people being envious of other's success. Some how thinking success is a sellout, when in fact failure is the sellout.

I have been involved in the arts as a student, and school owner for 33 years now. I began my pressure point study in 2001 after attending a seminar. Adding this information to any martial art system is a game changer.

About 20 months ago I moved from Canada to Romania to enjoy a quiet life, which I am. Currently, back when I arrived here I created an organization for those who wish to learn about pressure points, without the politics. It is called the Kyusho Jitsu World Alliance. We are growing continuously as people see the benefits of this information. The membership to the Alliance is free, and there is also a free course available. I do not wish to violate any forum rules, so if you want links send me a message.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Art

What pressure point work are you talking about? If it's pain points, those work, except when they don't. If it's the ones that are intended to do heavy damage or create disruption, some of them work (disrupting blood pressure at the neck can work), though they are mostly (not all) high-precision points that have limited access in fights.

You refer to pressure point science. I'm not aware of any rigorous studies that support traditional pressure point models. Can you point me to some?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not looking for information on the subject as I have spend 16 years full time learning and still. do.

Just a friendly comment about what this statement communicates to others. You say you still are still learning, but that you are not looking for information on the subject. Can you see how that sounds odd?

 

[MasterArtMason]

"sci·ence
noun: science
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.|"

It does not have to be by a major university or government group to be science. This is the dictionary definition of the word. It will never be studied by any funded groups because there is no $$$ to be made doing so.

 

[MasterArtMason]

Just a friendly comment about what this statement communicates to others. You say you still are still learning, but that you are not looking for information on the subject. Can you see how that sounds odd?

Because I am still in contact / learning with my teacher of 15 years, who is also an acupuncturist. So i am not actively seeking information from the masses any longer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a question for the teachers &/or more experienced individuals: Do pressure points work in real fights?

Why I ask, is because of it's articulate nature. If you miss a pressure point by a millimeter or even less, then its usefulness erodes.

Is it not difficult to apply them when you are under pressure?

Some do, and reliably (depending what we call a "pressure point" - the OP hasn't given us much about his definition, so he and I might use different definitions of them). A brachial stun is arguably a pressure point strike. There's a blood pressure sensor in a corotid sinus (I think I'm getting the terminology right) that has a small but predictable useful effect (larger on me, because I have low BP). That one is hard to hit, but not a super-high-precision target - within about an inch diameter. Most of the pain ones are relatively easy to get to, but their usefulness falls off under adrenal load. There are some others - one in the shoulder knotch, for instance - that temporarily disrupt muscle response (and hurt). That one is also not high-precision, but I'm not sure how much adrenal load affects it, and I think heavy musculature in the area would make it very hard to hit (converting it to a high-precision target).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because I am still in contact / learning with my teacher of 15 years, who is also an acupuncturist. So i am not actively seeking information from the masses any longer.

Why not broaden your base. Nobody knows everything about a topic, and there are always related topics that expand our knowledge. One of the best benefits we get from those outside sources is they sometimes challenge our understandings, which can help us improve how we explain things, improve our understanding of things, or help us see where we have a misunderstanding of things (and we all do somewhere in our "knowledge" - we're all still learning).

 

[hoshin1600]

as a side note,, i am and have been open to any kyusho "master" trying to use pressure points on me (other than neck strikes and a right cross to the chin) and so far despite some being supposed 8th degree masters in kyusho ryu ...i havnt been knocked out or convinced of their legitimacy.

 

[MasterArtMason]

Because I am still in contact / learning with my teacher of 15 years, who is also an acupuncturist. So i am not actively seeking information from the masses any longer.

Time

Some do, and reliably (depending what we call a "pressure point" - the OP hasn't given us much about his definition, so he and I might use different definitions of them). A brachial stun is arguably a pressure point strike. There's a blood pressure sensor in a corotid sinus (I think I'm getting the terminology right) that has a small but predictable useful effect (larger on me, because I have low BP). That one is hard to hit, but not a super-high-precision target - within about an inch diameter. Most of the pain ones are relatively easy to get to, but their usefulness falls off under adrenal load. There are some others - one in the shoulder knotch, for instance - that temporarily disrupt muscle response (and hurt). That one is also not high-precision, but I'm not sure how much adrenal load affects it, and I think heavy musculature in the area would make it very hard to hit (converting it to a high-precision target).

That is very accurate. You are referring to ST9 and 10 in this case. The "availability" of different points on the body will also vary from style to style, situation to situation. Also the focus of the style. There are many points on the head, that can result in knockout or dizziness under stress also because of the different nerves and muscles involved.

As for heavy muscles I have found this often works against them as tendons and nerves tend to be stretched which makes them more vulnerable. But this is only my experience doing it. There are points i get a very good response on about 80-85 percent of the people i have worked with. This is a decent percentage.

 

[MasterArtMason]

Why not broaden your base. Nobody knows everything about a topic, and there are always related topics that expand our knowledge. One of the best benefits we get from those outside sources is they sometimes challenge our understandings, which can help us improve how we explain things, improve our understanding of things, or help us see where we have a misunderstanding of things (and we all do somewhere in our "knowledge" - we're all still learning).

Time for than anything. I run a school / dojo in Canada, one here in Romania and do the pressure point thing via seminars and online. Full time, very few hours left in the day. Experimentation with students is always a great learning experience. Seeing the response to different points etc. This is why I say we are always learning. If we pay attention.

 

[MasterArtMason]

as a side note,, i am and have been open to any kyusho "master" trying to use pressure points on me (other than neck strikes and a right cross to the chin) and so far despite some being supposed 8th degree masters in kyusho ryu ...i havnt been knocked out or convinced of their legitimacy.

Awesome! Thank you! And thus the controversy because of misrepresentation of how it works. As you say except the neck or chin. (The chin has many points and nerves that protect the integrity of the jaw and the jugular vein), same with the neck. They have tried to convince the world that pressure point knockouts are "light touch" when in fact, they are not. You can demonstrate this on some people by overloading the nervous system, but that is demonstration not application. If someone is attacking you, light touch won't matter. But if you hit the point, you will get a result, one you might not get otherwise. I have taken some very hard shots to the head, ended up with a concussion and a skull fracture one. But I did not lose consciousness or stop fighting. But if they cause the occiptal nerve at the back of the head, I would have been out. (GB20)

 

[hoshin1600]

But if they cause the occiptal nerve at the back of the head, I would have been out. (GB20)

i am not a practitioner of kyusho pressure points so forgive my ignorance here ....if GB20 is the point at the base of the skull where the neck bones connect ,,,then yes i have been knocked out from a strike there, and it really doesnt take much. but again i consider that a point on the neck.

thus the controversy because of misrepresentation of how it works

the real controversy is the philosophy beneath the art. in America any 8 year old kid knows if you kick a male between the legs, he is going to crumple up in a ball on the ground. its common sense, getting kicked in the testicles hurts. but the entire philosophy around "Asian" pressure points revolves around the chi meridian lines and the disruption of chi. the entire kyusho philosophy is dependent on the belief of chi and Chinese type medicine.
this is why i purposely exclude the neck and chin. the claims of chi disruption as a cause for the "knock out " result have been predicated on disrupting chi centers in a specific sequence that cause the knock out, not western biology.
if you want to try to use western biology to explain kyusho, then we dont need kyusho and we dont need chi. we can just look at Grays Anatomy and learn normal every day biology that anyone can do from reading a book and trying it out.
without magical Chi,, your mastery of kyusho and being special falls apart.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, this is the sort of avoiding the question nonsense I get when I ask instructors who don't actually know for real, and so just waffle until everyone forgets the original question, and they can move on.

I'm not a teacher of pressure points and its reality, not waffling, not trying to get you to forget anything....and you avoided my question...What works 100% of the time? Answer is nothing.

I have been on the receiving end of pressure point attacks, I was not a willing subject nor was I expecting it, and the points that were used against me worked. However it is not something one picks up in a weekend seminar, there is a lot of study that needs to be done to know where to attack and you do not need to know all that many either. It is like anything else in martial arts, it takes training, it is not a quick fix.

 

[MasterArtMason]

i am not a practitioner of kyusho pressure points so forgive my ignorance here ....if GB20 is the point at the base of the skull where the neck bones connect ,,,then yes i have been knocked out from a strike there, and it really doesnt take much. but again i consider that a point on the neck.


the real controversy is the philosophy beneath the art. in America any 8 year old kid knows if you kick a male between the legs, he is going to crumple up in a ball on the ground. its common sense, getting kicked in the testicles hurts. but the entire philosophy around "Asian" pressure points revolves around the chi meridian lines and the disruption of chi. the entire kyusho philosophy is dependent on the belief of chi and Chinese type medicine.
this is why i purposely exclude the neck and chin. the claims of chi disruption as a cause for the "knock out " result have been predicated on disrupting chi centers in a specific sequence that cause the knock out, not western biology.
if you want to try to use western biology to explain kyusho, then we dont need kyusho and we dont need chi. we can just look at Grays Anatomy and learn normal every day biology that anyone can do from reading a book and trying it out.
without magical Chi,, your mastery of kyusho and being special falls apart.

Not a believer in chi? I guess it depends on what you are looking for right? If I have a 9mm and some training I need none of it. My point and purpose is to reach people how and where they are in their journey. But it is not for everyone for sure! SOme want an explaination from a medical standpoint, some don't care.

 

[MasterArtMason]

I'm not a teacher of pressure points and its reality, not waffling, not trying to get you to forget anything....and you avoided my question...What works 100% of the time? Answer is nothing.

I have been on the receiving end of pressure point attacks, I was not a willing subject nor was I expecting it, and the points that were used against me worked. However it is not something one picks up in a weekend seminar, there is a lot of study that needs to be done to know where to attack and you do not need to know all that many either. It is like anything else in martial arts, it takes training, it is not a quick fix.

No it is not, but it does cause interest which is the point of the seminar. Years ago I was at a knife seminar with diana lee inosanto and ron balicki. You aren't going to do that in a 90 minute session either. But I know people will pursue it. There are no quick fixes to any self defense. But the ads online would make you think otherwise. LOL

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Unfortunately for those who wish to explore more esoteric forms such as pressure points, there is also a lot of smoke and mirrors engaged in by people who engage in wishful thinking and outright fraud. There is little for anyone outside of a given art to use as a yardstick to separate one from the other.

Pressure points, chi or touchless knockouts, and all that kind of thing tend to be viewed with suspicion by many martial artists, and with good reason, in my opinion. If martial arts fakes exist, this is the realm they tend to inhabit. Not least of which because it allows someone to pop up, offer the idea of matchless martial prowess for very little investment of time or effort, and be able to defend their claims by waving their hands around and claiming they're being persecuted by the establishment for offering deeply held secrets to the general public. Not unlike faith healers.

Imagine a person who claimed to be a psychic and set up shop giving readings. As the public consists of either believers who tend (IMHO) to believe that anyone who claims to be a psychic is real, to disbelievers, who think it's all bunk, how is the 'real' psychic to be judged accurately based on their claims?

I personally do not have the time - or the inclination - to visit every so-called psychic in town and try to figure out whether any given psychic might actually be real. So I simply avoid them, and the subject, and behave as if psychic powers simply did not exist; a safe bet, but not necessarily a correct one.

Likewise, I have met a few people who claim the ability to use pressure points in martial arts, and from what I have seen and experienced directly, it's either complete bunk, or simply based on standard strikes to nerve clusters that basically every competent martial artist (and many non-martial artists) already know about, like raking a knuckle on the floating ribs.

That doesn't mean there is no such thing. It does not mean that you are not correct, and in possession of unique knowledge that would be of use to any martial artist. It means most people don't have the time or the desire, to wade through fraud after fraud to find the one guy who actually has real ability to do pressure point strikes.

Make sense? I am in no way putting down your claimed abilities. Maybe you have them, maybe you don't. I am sure you believe you do, and that's totally cool. However, I don't have the time in my life to go down yet another path that maybe will be real but most likely will be a bunch of hooey. So I avoid such things like the plague.

 

[Martial D]

Truth goes through 3 stages, first it is laughed at, then it is violently opposed, finally is accepted as self evident. I believe the pressure point sciences are finally approaching the 3rd stage. The reason for the controversy is simply. Big egos, poor marketing, and people being envious of other's success. Some how thinking success is a sellout, when in fact failure is the sellout.

I have been involved in the arts as a student, and school owner for 33 years now. I began my pressure point study in 2001 after attending a seminar. Adding this information to any martial art system is a game changer.

About 20 months ago I moved from Canada to Romania to enjoy a quiet life, which I am. Currently, back when I arrived here I created an organization for those who wish to learn about pressure points, without the politics. It is called the Kyusho Jitsu World Alliance. We are growing continuously as people see the benefits of this information. The membership to the Alliance is free, and there is also a free course available. I do not wish to violate any forum rules, so if you want links send me a message.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Art

Sure, pressure points are real, they just don't actually stop anybody.

Unless of course you mean the temple or the tip of the chin. Apply enough "pressure" to these points and the fight is over.

 

[MasterArtMason]

Unfortunately for those who wish to explore more esoteric forms such as pressure points, there is also a lot of smoke and mirrors engaged in by people who engage in wishful thinking and outright fraud. There is little for anyone outside of a given art to use as a yardstick to separate one from the other.

Pressure points, chi or touchless knockouts, and all that kind of thing tend to be viewed with suspicion by many martial artists, and with good reason, in my opinion. If martial arts fakes exist, this is the realm they tend to inhabit. Not least of which because it allows someone to pop up, offer the idea of matchless martial prowess for very little investment of time or effort, and be able to defend their claims by waving their hands around and claiming they're being persecuted by the establishment for offering deeply held secrets to the general public. Not unlike faith healers.

Imagine a person who claimed to be a psychic and set up shop giving readings. As the public consists of either believers who tend (IMHO) to believe that anyone who claims to be a psychic is real, to disbelievers, who think it's all bunk, how is the 'real' psychic to be judged accurately based on their claims?

I personally do not have the time - or the inclination - to visit every so-called psychic in town and try to figure out whether any given psychic might actually be real. So I simply avoid them, and the subject, and behave as if psychic powers simply did not exist; a safe bet, but not necessarily a correct one.

Likewise, I have met a few people who claim the ability to use pressure points in martial arts, and from what I have seen and experienced directly, it's either complete bunk, or simply based on standard strikes to nerve clusters that basically every competent martial artist (and many non-martial artists) already know about, like raking a knuckle on the floating ribs.

That doesn't mean there is no such thing. It does not mean that you are not correct, and in possession of unique knowledge that would be of use to any martial artist. It means most people don't have the time or the desire, to wade through fraud after fraud to find the one guy who actually has real ability to do pressure point strikes.

Make sense? I am in no way putting down your claimed abilities. Maybe you have them, maybe you don't. I am sure you believe you do, and that's totally cool. However, I don't have the time in my life to go down yet another path that maybe will be real but most likely will be a bunch of hooey. So I avoid such things like the plague.

Thanks for the message. Yes your points are very valid! I have not had any issue getting students, and keeping them because I provide what I offer. There is a lot of crap out there for sure, but in many different avenues of the arts as well. Human nature maybe? I would like to think not.

But after 30 plus years I have seen a lot of lies too, some of them coming from well respected people as well.

 

[MasterArtMason]

Sure, pressure points are real, they just don't actually stop anybody.

Unless of course you mean the temple or the tip of the chin. Apply enough "pressure" to these points and the fight is over.

I will dispute that one from personal experience in Caracas Venezuela. However, when someone thinks something will not work for them, they are always right!

 

[TigerHeart]