Pregnancy Pact ~ What utter stupidity!

[Gordon Nore]

At the risk of sounding like the voice of dissent, so long as the babies are cared for, and the girls in question have the required support from their families (and the government), why is this such a bad thing?

Now, I know some folks get all upset at the thought of their taxes going to pay for someone elses child support. Well, too bad. I'd rather be paying for someone elses child suport than cars and chauffeurs for government employees!

That's pretty much where I stand on it. I'm prepared to pay taxes to care for children in the welfare system. Further, I would love for that system to lavish these children and their mothers with opportunities -- real opportunities to get out of that system and into something better, or to keep them from getting there in the first place. But that's really what this conversation is about: the vast resentment people feel for our societal dependents.


Thats about the most disturbing thing I've ever read. Sex can kill you? It will ruin your life?[/quote]

 

[Kacey]

I'm torn -- the trained teacher in me says, "Yes," to the first sentence. What a joy it would be just to teach my children to read and write, and to love books, and all that.

The parent in me is scared that too many kids have not learned what they need to learn. After four days of training with local public health authorities, I spent a day at my son's elementary school teaching bicycle safety, how to put on a helmet, and to ride safely in traffic for the older kids. I wish I could depend upon parents to teach this. As it stands, when I mount a school-wide outdoor activity, I have to teach kids to remember to bring items like baseball hats, sunscreen and water bottles. Getting kids to use sunscreen -- even in this day and age -- has been a career-long battle.

You're preaching to the choir, y'know. The schools teach what they do because no one is doing it... but that doesn't make it right. The schools should be reinforcing what is taught at home - but because so many homes are not teaching these things, the schools have, perforce, picked up the slack. I'm glad that someone is, truly - but it's really not the place of the schools to parent... but we do it anyway, because we must.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

So, perhaps, at the cost of a few children, we should go back to when people, including children, have to suffer for the consequences of their actions. Darwinian evolution will take care of the rest.

 

[Archangel M]

I dont buy the whole "their so downtrodden with no opportunity so they just decided to get pregnant" argument. Teenagers dont think that way. Im betting they all watched the movie Juno one to many times or thought that Ashlee Simpson is sooooooo coooool for having a baby, or their parents let them watch Springer too often. Our culture and media is getting far too crass IMO.

 

[MJS]

At the risk of sounding like the voice of dissent, so long as the babies are cared for, and the girls in question have the required support from their families (and the government), why is this such a bad thing?

Now, I know some folks get all upset at the thought of their taxes going to pay for someone elses child support. Well, too bad. I'd rather be paying for someone elses child suport than cars and chauffeurs for government employees!



:barf:

Thats about the most disturbing thing I've ever read. Sex can kill you? It will ruin your life?

That's pretty much where I stand on it. I'm prepared to pay taxes to care for children in the welfare system. Further, I would love for that system to lavish these children and their mothers with opportunities -- real opportunities to get out of that system and into something better, or to keep them from getting there in the first place. But that's really what this conversation is about: the vast resentment people feel for our societal dependents.


Thats about the most disturbing thing I've ever read. Sex can kill you? It will ruin your life?

[/quote]

Here is my take on welfare. If someone uses it on a temporary basis until they get back on their feet, fine. But, why the hell should I or anyone else, have to pay for someone, because a) they wanted a baby because they felt it was the cool thing to do, b) so they can sit back, do nothing and reap the benefits of what Im paying for and c) so that the father of the child can contribute nothing as well.

Sorry, IMHO, its something that should be used as a temp. solution until the child or people involved can provide the proper care, but I don't feel I should have to pay for someone to have as many kids as they want. I don't think thats what the system was set up for, yet thats what it turned into.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.unesco.org/courier/2000_07/uk/apprend2.htm

The Dutch way of dealing with sex education. They have the lowest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe as well as the highest age for having sex for the first time.

 

[Twin Fist]

Thats about the most disturbing thing I've ever read. Sex can kill you? It will ruin your life?

ever hear of AIDS?

ever seen a woman with 3 kids, no education, no job skills living in poverty because she cant support herself much less her children?

 

[Sukerkin]

I have to say that I concur with the point of view that shows Welfare Dependency to be a very bad thing.

In England, it has now become a generational situation, whereby, in order to keep the money flowing in, women with either no significant employment prospects or no intention of working for a living, have babies at regular intervals.

It is appalling to me that the good intentions of the state have been so easily corrupted so quickly and worse still that these child-bearers so easily close their eyes to how morally bankrupt it is to live their lives this way.

This has then spawned the iniquitous serpent that is the Child Support Agency, which leaches onto absent fathers, regardless of the circumstances that lead to their absence and attempts to force them to pay over-blown amounts to support 'their' child. What is the end result of this in many cases? They simply stop working and go on the dole as it becomes impossible for them to live on normal working-mans wages.

Grrr ... as you can probably tell this subject warms my blood somewhat . So, having driven close to the edge of off-topicness, I'm back to posing the question of what can be done that would be seriously effective in reducing teenage pregnancies?

Irene posted a link to a methodology used by the Dutch that seems to work for them.

There was also a short run of adverts over here that I thought was very good. There were two adverts per break -

- one showing a young girl looking happy with her friends as they clear up after a party and a young lad talking with his mates about how he couldn't give a condom back that he borrowed because he used it

- the second showed the girl upset and tearful being comforted by her friends and the young lad being scorned by his mates for having unprotected sex.

How effective those adverts were at reaching their target audience I don't know but they illustrated that what we need to change are social attitudes towards unprotected sex.

 

[Twin Fist]

agree 100%

 

[tellner]

TF, yes "They were married". But they were already pregnant when they got married. The 1950s had an unprecedented rate of "premature" births. It wasn't chemicals in the environment or flabby cervices. The girls in question got knocked up and married off.

Now, you may think that hiding a problem and lying about it is a good strategy. That is the way Movement Conservatives operate. Those of us in the "reality based community" (to quote your President's staff) prefer truth to lies even if the lies make you feel good. Teenagers were still having sex. They weren't using contraception because it was illegal. They were still ignorant. And they were still ruining their lives.

The Conservative strategy is based on lies. As long as the lies are told long enough and forcefully enough, they tell us, they will eventually become true. Push reefer madness on the sheep, and pot will eventually make men commit murder in the streets and turn Our Precious White Women into the helpless sex-slaves of Degenerate Negro Jazz Musicians. Push abstinence only sex "education" and everyone will remain a virgin until marriage. They will shut down their sexuality because we've scared them with enough lies. Shovel a few more cartloads of "Exodus" and "The Homosexual Agenda" and the Sodomites will magically turn to jeebus and become heterosexual.

The problem is that repeating a lie long and loud doesn't make it true.

Lie about the effects of hemp, and kids will find out that they just doesn't work as advertised. Then they will not believe anything you say. Along comes heroin or meth. They know you lied to them before, so why should they believe you now? You were telling the truth this time? Oops.

Gays and lesbians will not turn straight when exposed to the Bible. They don't choose to be what they are. Screaming it at them, sending them to prison, castration, aversion therapy and execution - all in use today - won't change what they are. All the lies do is cause a lot of misery.

Whoopi Goldberg was absolutely right. Nobody has said it better. "You can't stop kids from ****ing. It feels good." People have sex. And they have sex even if you think they should remain virgins until they get permission from your tribal witch doctors to have sex. You can continue to lie to them and try to scare them. All you'll do is ensure that they are ignorant and make bad decisions.

The Dutch approach may not fit your ideas about what sexuality should be like - fumbling, dirty, clumsy and full of shame. But it keeps down the number of pregnant teenagers and STDs. And it keeps the kids from ****ing until they're older and more likely to make good decisions. Knowledge is better than ignorance. Truth is better than lies. Reality is better than wishful thinking. That's all there is to it.

 

[Sukerkin]

That was well written, Todd and contained kernels of what I would see as the truth on certain issues.

However, I must ask if I missed something earlier in the thread where your goodself and TF had a falling out? It's just that it reads to me as a spikily personal retort to something with which you profoundly disagree.

Perhaps it's just the opening paragraph that makes it appear aimed at one person whereas, when I read it through again, I can see that much of the body is directed at general flaws in the approach to social issues by those on the Far Rght who mingle religion in with politics.

I wonder if maybe a small re-edit to clarify that you're not beating a specific member with a fairly hefty stick (why does that sound so perverse ) might be a good idea?

 

[Twin Fist]

The Conservative strategy is based on lies.

uh, yeah

"surplus"
"i did not have sexual relations with that woman"
"iraq is a civil war"
"bush went to war for oil"

do we REALY want to get into who lies and who doesnt?

slinging that mud will get everyone dirty

 

[Rich Parsons]

I am absolutely blown away at the news of a bunch of teenagers making a "pact" to get pregnant together and raise their children together. WTF are they thinking? Is this just another example of us going wrong with raising our children? Do you all remember when you were a kid how absolutely terrified you were that you "might" get pregnant and how it was such a big deal when someone did? Now a days there are day cares in high schools for crying out loud!

This just floor me!

Full Story

While in high school as a sophomore (10th grade), there was a young woman who was talking about her greatest desire. That of being pregnant and having a child. She was talking to someone else behind me, but I turned around as I knew her. I asked if she had talked to her mother about this? She replied yes. I asked if she understood what it meant to her about college and even graduating high school with the extra responsibility. She replied she understood. She then went on to explain that she really believed that is what she wanted, but that she knew she had to wait until she at least graduated high school.

I think people should be aware of what they are doing and the responsibility they have. I hope they do not just expect that someone else will just raise the child for them. i.e. The grand parents or the school system or other institutions.

 

[CF'er]

So what if it were one of your students? A black belt. What would you do?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

So, perhaps, at the cost of a few children, we should go back to when people, including children, have to suffer for the consequences of their actions. Darwinian evolution will take care of the rest.

I've been saying that the last ten years.

I do not think people will be any more receptive now than then.

 

[tellner]

Sukerkin, since you ask I'll answer.

A lot of times when the evil tellner comes out it's because things have hit something personal. In this case it hit three in close succession. I apologize to all, especially TF for letting the personal get out, but here's something by way of explaining why...

The Gay thing...

A friend of mine was raised very Catholic. He was also gay and hid it for a long time, especially from himself. I lost track of him over the years. When I was able to find him again he'd gone through some changes. Specifically, he had come out with a vengeance and a self destructive streak of guilt about it a mile wide. His family would have nothing to do with him except for his brother who was also gay. One of the self destructive bits involved picking up full blown AIDS. He's still alive, much changed for the better in some ways but blind, ill, and unable to make a living. Without the stigma, shame and so on he would have had the mental and emotional resources to come to terms with his sexuality in a more healthy way and might have faced everything that came later with the help of his family and probably with more of an eye towards safety.

The "Scare them out of sex" thing...

A cousin of mine will probably die a horrible death because of the Religious Right. She wanted Gardasil very badly from the time it entered the final approval process. Time dragged on. The Religious Right put pressure on the Administration, pressure which Bush and company were glad to accept. Gardasil was delayed specifically and explicitly so that girls would be frightened of sex. It was said that if it were approved they would no longer risk one of the most horrible deaths out there - cervical cancer - every time they had sex. Without that terror, the preachers and spokesmen said, they would go out and have (and I qoute) "orgies".

Well, she didn't have orgies. But she had a boyfriend who wasn't completely faithful and left her with a case of HPV. HPV plus family history? She has an excellent chance of facing her later months with a completely preventable disease, one that will eat her alive and cause her to die in dehumanizing agony years before her time.

Sex education and contraception...

I used to be in nursing. One of the most heartbreaking things I ever saw was a fifteen year old girl. G-d, it's still hard to tell this one. In those days there wasn't any real sex education. Contraception was harder to come by. She had attempted a self-induced abortion and had botched it. She didn't understand how conception, let alone contraception worked. By the time it was all over social services had been called. The police had been called. And as the only adult male working that particular shift I had been called first when her parents found out and laid into her. I have never come so close to doing illegal violence to a human being as I did to them when they called her terrible names and threatened to throw her out of the house.

The icing on the cake? The infection probably rendered her sterile. For want of a few hours of honest education who knows how much misery and how many of her future children could have been saved.

Even more...

When my father retired after many years as a urologist he needed something to do. For a while his hobby was performing vasectomies at Planned Parenthood. Nothing like a bit of outpatient surgery in the morning to give you something to talk about over lunch at Rotary. He stopped doing them for a number of reasons. One of them was the threats. It didn't matter that he has never terminated a pregnancy in his life. The activists still made death threats against everyone who did anything there. And considering some of the murders and bombings he decided not to take any chances.

Comply or die.

So yes, sometimes it's personal. When it is and the pain is a little too much I lash out. The current discussions pushed buttons that over-rode my good sense for which I beg everyone's pardon.

 

[Sukerkin]

Thank you, Todd, for explaining so clearly what was obviously a painful confluence of influences here at MT that impinged on your 'real' life experiences.

My apologies for causing you to have to do so :rei:.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Sukerkin, since you ask I'll answer...

Thanks for sharing, Tellner.

 

[jks9199]

MJS,
teen pregnancy was rare when I was in HS just 24 years ago.

The schools have been doing it your way since then, it isnt helping. Teen pregnancy is more common now than it was. I know this because now high schools have friggen dare care centers in them......

The problem is, all the kids hear is "it's ok to have sex" and being kids they figure it wont happen to them.so they dont use condoms.....

maybe if they heard "it is NOT ok to have sex, it is bad thing to do, you can catch diseases and/or get pregnant and ruin your life, or DIE, so DONT DO IT"

when did the parents of america decide that it was ok to surrender and just let kids do what they want? I just raised a teen ager female, so I know of what I speak. We simply didnt let it happen and let her know in NO uncertain terms what would happen to her. She was 18 before she was sexually active. Because we simply put some effort into raising her right.

if they are raised right, they just might NOT have sex. When did parents just stop trying?

I won't say it was rare 20+ years ago when I was in high school. I will say that girls getting pregnant and carrying a baby to term was rare where I grew up. I also have to disclose that it was a good, solidly middle class community in Virginia, with lots and lots of government workers and military families. I know DC had a much higher teen birth rate.

Personally, I think the first choice for sex ed is the family. Since that is failing, as many parents have sex ed discussions with their kids that are beyond brief today if not non-existent (my own with my parents consisted of "if you're going to do it, use a condom"), schools and religious institutions are the best available choice. I do feel that the basics of procreation should be covered, with appropriate moral instruction depending on the setting (like a church school), as well as basic facts about preventing unwanted pregnancy. As a Catholic, I am morally and personally opposed to both birth control and abortion -- but that won't prevent me from teaching any children I have what they should know to make good decisions on their own, or ensure that they have the tools to control the consequences from bad choices.

In this particular case, I suspect that there are some deep problems at home. And probably in the community, too.

 

[Fiendlover]

that's appalling! it's not like teenagers have enough of a bad repuation as it is and now teenage girls are getting pregnant by the masses? No way! I wouldn't have any regrets slapping every one of them in the faces.
:whip::snipe2::disgust: