don bohrer
Brown Belt
Is that like 3d googles or something?
Is that like 3d googles or something?
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
naw, just windows media player
don bohrer
Brown Belt
Chuck,
I was using media player. I work on computers all day, and had no motivation to fix it. Besides last night my kid brother wouldn't shut up!
But tonight I'll watch Russians slaughter each other!
I was using media player. I work on computers all day, and had no motivation to fix it. Besides last night my kid brother wouldn't shut up!
But tonight I'll watch Russians slaughter each other!
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Enjoy, it's a small clip but there's some good hitting going on by Mikal and Vlad.
Bill Lear
Brown Belt
Mr. Parker used to say if you can hit you can miss... I tend to agree with his statement.
I think that training with pads would help the practitioner develop power, while training with control on an actual human being (without pads) will condition a person to accurately strike targets and understand the responses dictated by those strikes.
Trust me Mike, I'm pretty sure Mr. Tatum can probably hit quite hard.
OP
OP
MisterMike
Guest
Yes, but the drill posted was a targeting drill. It wasn't anything to do with my original question.
I agree that pads will develop you power technique, while the partner can aid you in target selection. But your partner has to be able to understand the technique as well, in order to "dummy" well and give you the right reactions. In many of the videos, the partner hardly reacts while the technique is run.
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
Then you should either hit them harder or with proper intent. If you have to hit them harder it shouldn't be done with malice however, it should be done with good intentions or else you risk being a bully and no one will work with you. Intent should be more than just going through the motions but having the proper breathing and thought when striking that is you were really hitting to hurt the "dummy" would feel this and react accordingly.
Eh, when in doubt hit 'em harder
D
dcence
Guest
My perspective on this: I usually try to get my partner to stand as still as possible. If I want a reaction, I will hit them hard enough for it (normally to the body but pulling shots to the face and neck). If the partner tries to voluntarily react like they think they should, then they are always one step behind and that is when they really get hit, i.e., their head is coming down when it really should be going back up. There is a lot to be said for control and limited penetration contact, but not expecting you to wait for manufactured reactions.
In our school you are free to hit to the body with a degree of penetration and force, but to the face and neck we try to pull the shots -- "try" being the operative word there. LOL
Derek
K
kenpo2dabone
Guest
After reading most of the posts in this thread it seems that people are talking about two different type of speed. One being the speed of any one strike and the other being the speed at which a person can exacute a technique.
Given the equation that was used in one of the prior post "Force = Mass X acceleration" it can be said that in order to hit with more force you can either increase speed or you can increase mass. To an extent it is easier to increase speed than it is to increase mass. Although, neither of these is more important than hitting with correct anatomical alliagnment and proper exacution of said strike. Therefore, I feel that it is a great idea to practice increasing the speed and proper exacution of any particular strike. However, exacuting a technique as fast as you can could make it more difficult to exacute every strike properly in the technique. When you strike a person there should be time alotted for reaction to the strike. Now I am not talking about long lengths of time but more like millisecends between strikes. That is not to say that everystrike requires this slight pause but most strikes do seem to require some type of reaction in order to open the next target. The other thing that these slight pauses allow for is adjustments that you (the person performing the technique) may need to make in the event that the person you are hitting does not react in a manner that you expect. I think that Mr. Tatums demonstrations are just that, dementstrations. The object of any demenstration of a technique is not to hurt but is to teach. The dummies he is demenstrating on may jhave been told not to react to the strikes so that is is easier to see the targetting and paths of action on each strike rather than the effect the strikes would have. So I don't think that is fair to compare these demonstrations to the question of power in the original post.
Just a few thoughts,
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
Given the equation that was used in one of the prior post "Force = Mass X acceleration" it can be said that in order to hit with more force you can either increase speed or you can increase mass. To an extent it is easier to increase speed than it is to increase mass. Although, neither of these is more important than hitting with correct anatomical alliagnment and proper exacution of said strike. Therefore, I feel that it is a great idea to practice increasing the speed and proper exacution of any particular strike. However, exacuting a technique as fast as you can could make it more difficult to exacute every strike properly in the technique. When you strike a person there should be time alotted for reaction to the strike. Now I am not talking about long lengths of time but more like millisecends between strikes. That is not to say that everystrike requires this slight pause but most strikes do seem to require some type of reaction in order to open the next target. The other thing that these slight pauses allow for is adjustments that you (the person performing the technique) may need to make in the event that the person you are hitting does not react in a manner that you expect. I think that Mr. Tatums demonstrations are just that, dementstrations. The object of any demenstration of a technique is not to hurt but is to teach. The dummies he is demenstrating on may jhave been told not to react to the strikes so that is is easier to see the targetting and paths of action on each strike rather than the effect the strikes would have. So I don't think that is fair to compare these demonstrations to the question of power in the original post.
Just a few thoughts,
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
W
WhiteTiger
Guest
This is by far the best explaination of Punching Force I have seen.
Mass of the punch may be increased by using muscle tension to add the masses of the shoulder, torso, legs, and feet to the mass of the punching arm. Generally, speed decreases as effective mass increases, but, by using a sequential application of forces, such as arm, then shoulder, then hip snap, and then leg thrust, the fist is snapped out similar to a whip, without adding mass that may slow speed of the punch. Then, at moment of impact, the body tenses and adds the mass to the punch.
Focus is when a full-power, full-speed technique is aimed to terminate a point in space. Focus is not just terminating the technique at the point in space, it is also a simultaneous contracting of all muscles to add all the power and mass of the body to the technique. Maximum power occurs when all muscles of the body contract at impact. Since the impact force of a technique equals the mass times the acceleration of the attacking weapon, to reach maximum force, you must be loose and relaxed as a technique starts and progresses so you may achieve maximum acceleration, and then contract all the muscles to achieve maximum mass. Since the technique stops at the point of focus, maximum force of the technique occurs at a point just millimeters before the point of focus. After maximum power point, the fist is decelerating. Without the contraction, maximum power is not reached, therefore, if an opponent moves into a technique that was intended to stop just short of contact, the attacker can lessen the force of the impact by not contracting into the technique. When sparring, the point of focus is just short of the surface of the chin, so the opponent is not harmed. In an actual attack, the focus point is internal of the chin, so that fist is at maximum velocity when if strikes the surface of the chin and thus strikes with maximum force.
Taking all this into consideration, which punches harder, a large person or a small person? The large person has bigger muscles and more mass, but it requires more muscle power to move the greater mass so acceleration and velocity of the punch is reduced. The smaller person has smaller muscles and less mass, but the acceleration and velocity of the punch is greater. This, striking pressures of the two punches may actually be equal. The striking force of a speeding bullet and speeding locomotive may be equal, but which would you rather be hit by?
A larger person has more reach, more mass to absorb blows, and more strength. The farther a punch travels, the more time it has to accelerate, so a larger person with longer arms may generate more power. However, it takes more time to cover the longer distance, which may give the smaller person time to avoid or block the punch. John Jerome, in his work The Sweet Spot in Time, states that large, muscular athletes are generally faster than smaller, thinner people when moving about. So, in general, a large person hits with more force than a small person.
The momentum of an object is its mass multiplied by its velocity. By adding up the momentum of all individual objects in a system, the system's total momentum can be calculated. In a "closed" system, the net momentum never changes. This is a useful fact when analyzing an impact, because we know that the total momentum of the system will be the same after the impact as it was before the impact, even though the momentum of its parts may have changed. Momentum is a "vector" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving in opposite directions with the same velocity have zero net momentum.
Energy takes many forms, such as the kinetic energy of a moving mass. Energy is a "scalar" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving at the same velocity have the same total kinetic energy, regardless of their direction of movement. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to half its mass times the square of its velocity.
Energy, like momentum, is always conserved. But, sometimes it changes from kinetic energy, which is easily observed by measuring velocities and masses, to other forms that are harder to measure, most notably heat. The process of changing kinetic energy to heat is usually damaging to the material being heated. If the material is human tissue, it can be crushed, torn, or broken by the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. If the material is wood, it will break. A process that slowly or gradually converts kinetic energy to heat is usually called friction. A process that suddenly converts kinetic energy to heat is called an inelastic collision.
Example 1: When billiard balls collide at normal speeds they suffer no measurable damage because their collisions are almost perfectly elastic. All collisions conserve momentum, but only elastic ones conserve kinetic energy. So, if one ball with a certain velocity strikes a stationary ball on-center, it will transfer all of it's momentum and kinetic energy to the stationary ball, stop, and cause the other ball to move away at the same velocity as the striking ball. If a perfectly elastic Taekwondo student struck a perfectly elastic target, the target would fly off undamaged, but with lots of kinetic energy, perhaps sustaining damage when it hits the floor.
Example 2: If, instead of hard balls, we use balls made of soft clay, then, when one ball strikes a stationary ball, both balls will mush together and move away with half the velocity of the striking ball. The kinetic energy before the collision is MV2/2. The kinetic energy after the collision is MV2/4. Half of the kinetic energy has gone into damaging the balls. Since both balls are equally damaged, each ball got damaged in the amount MV2/8.
Example 3: If a hard ball strikes a stationary clay ball, only the clay ball will be damaged. Therefore all of the lost kinetic energy MV2/4 went into damaging the clay ball.
Example 4: If a clay ball strikes an anchored hard ball, all the momentum of the clay ball will be transferred to the earth, and all of its kinetic energy MV2/2 will be expended in damaging the clay ball. This is twice the damage of example 3, and four times the per-ball damage of example 2.
So, as a Taekwondo student, you should be as elastic as possible as protection against damage. Proper focus unites the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments into a structure that is better able to distribute forces elastically (non-destructively), such as pre-stressed concrete does in buildings. It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. Colliding elastically does not transfer any kinetic energy, so it should be be avoided. An inelastic collision with the target transfers kinetic energy that damages the target rather than your striking limb. You want your victim to be damaged, not pushed backward. To cause maximum damage to an opponent, targets should be chosen for their inability to respond elastically. The ability of a target to respond elastically depends on its structure, the speed of the impact, and the area of impact pressure.
All tissues have a range of pressures over which they are capable of responding elastically. The transition from elastic response to inelastic response is called "yielding." As pressure builds in a collision between two objects, both objects are initially elastic. A striker strives to have a larger elastic domain than the target. Once the target yields, the pressure between the two objects stops increasing and starts decreasing. When we consider momentum rather than pressure, the speed at which your technique travels has a greater effect upon the collision than the mass of the technique. Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will transfer momentum.
Mass of the punch may be increased by using muscle tension to add the masses of the shoulder, torso, legs, and feet to the mass of the punching arm. Generally, speed decreases as effective mass increases, but, by using a sequential application of forces, such as arm, then shoulder, then hip snap, and then leg thrust, the fist is snapped out similar to a whip, without adding mass that may slow speed of the punch. Then, at moment of impact, the body tenses and adds the mass to the punch.
Focus is when a full-power, full-speed technique is aimed to terminate a point in space. Focus is not just terminating the technique at the point in space, it is also a simultaneous contracting of all muscles to add all the power and mass of the body to the technique. Maximum power occurs when all muscles of the body contract at impact. Since the impact force of a technique equals the mass times the acceleration of the attacking weapon, to reach maximum force, you must be loose and relaxed as a technique starts and progresses so you may achieve maximum acceleration, and then contract all the muscles to achieve maximum mass. Since the technique stops at the point of focus, maximum force of the technique occurs at a point just millimeters before the point of focus. After maximum power point, the fist is decelerating. Without the contraction, maximum power is not reached, therefore, if an opponent moves into a technique that was intended to stop just short of contact, the attacker can lessen the force of the impact by not contracting into the technique. When sparring, the point of focus is just short of the surface of the chin, so the opponent is not harmed. In an actual attack, the focus point is internal of the chin, so that fist is at maximum velocity when if strikes the surface of the chin and thus strikes with maximum force.
Taking all this into consideration, which punches harder, a large person or a small person? The large person has bigger muscles and more mass, but it requires more muscle power to move the greater mass so acceleration and velocity of the punch is reduced. The smaller person has smaller muscles and less mass, but the acceleration and velocity of the punch is greater. This, striking pressures of the two punches may actually be equal. The striking force of a speeding bullet and speeding locomotive may be equal, but which would you rather be hit by?
A larger person has more reach, more mass to absorb blows, and more strength. The farther a punch travels, the more time it has to accelerate, so a larger person with longer arms may generate more power. However, it takes more time to cover the longer distance, which may give the smaller person time to avoid or block the punch. John Jerome, in his work The Sweet Spot in Time, states that large, muscular athletes are generally faster than smaller, thinner people when moving about. So, in general, a large person hits with more force than a small person.
The momentum of an object is its mass multiplied by its velocity. By adding up the momentum of all individual objects in a system, the system's total momentum can be calculated. In a "closed" system, the net momentum never changes. This is a useful fact when analyzing an impact, because we know that the total momentum of the system will be the same after the impact as it was before the impact, even though the momentum of its parts may have changed. Momentum is a "vector" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving in opposite directions with the same velocity have zero net momentum.
Energy takes many forms, such as the kinetic energy of a moving mass. Energy is a "scalar" quantity, which means that two equal masses moving at the same velocity have the same total kinetic energy, regardless of their direction of movement. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to half its mass times the square of its velocity.
Energy, like momentum, is always conserved. But, sometimes it changes from kinetic energy, which is easily observed by measuring velocities and masses, to other forms that are harder to measure, most notably heat. The process of changing kinetic energy to heat is usually damaging to the material being heated. If the material is human tissue, it can be crushed, torn, or broken by the conversion of kinetic energy to heat. If the material is wood, it will break. A process that slowly or gradually converts kinetic energy to heat is usually called friction. A process that suddenly converts kinetic energy to heat is called an inelastic collision.
Example 1: When billiard balls collide at normal speeds they suffer no measurable damage because their collisions are almost perfectly elastic. All collisions conserve momentum, but only elastic ones conserve kinetic energy. So, if one ball with a certain velocity strikes a stationary ball on-center, it will transfer all of it's momentum and kinetic energy to the stationary ball, stop, and cause the other ball to move away at the same velocity as the striking ball. If a perfectly elastic Taekwondo student struck a perfectly elastic target, the target would fly off undamaged, but with lots of kinetic energy, perhaps sustaining damage when it hits the floor.
Example 2: If, instead of hard balls, we use balls made of soft clay, then, when one ball strikes a stationary ball, both balls will mush together and move away with half the velocity of the striking ball. The kinetic energy before the collision is MV2/2. The kinetic energy after the collision is MV2/4. Half of the kinetic energy has gone into damaging the balls. Since both balls are equally damaged, each ball got damaged in the amount MV2/8.
Example 3: If a hard ball strikes a stationary clay ball, only the clay ball will be damaged. Therefore all of the lost kinetic energy MV2/4 went into damaging the clay ball.
Example 4: If a clay ball strikes an anchored hard ball, all the momentum of the clay ball will be transferred to the earth, and all of its kinetic energy MV2/2 will be expended in damaging the clay ball. This is twice the damage of example 3, and four times the per-ball damage of example 2.
So, as a Taekwondo student, you should be as elastic as possible as protection against damage. Proper focus unites the bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments into a structure that is better able to distribute forces elastically (non-destructively), such as pre-stressed concrete does in buildings. It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. Colliding elastically does not transfer any kinetic energy, so it should be be avoided. An inelastic collision with the target transfers kinetic energy that damages the target rather than your striking limb. You want your victim to be damaged, not pushed backward. To cause maximum damage to an opponent, targets should be chosen for their inability to respond elastically. The ability of a target to respond elastically depends on its structure, the speed of the impact, and the area of impact pressure.
All tissues have a range of pressures over which they are capable of responding elastically. The transition from elastic response to inelastic response is called "yielding." As pressure builds in a collision between two objects, both objects are initially elastic. A striker strives to have a larger elastic domain than the target. Once the target yields, the pressure between the two objects stops increasing and starts decreasing. When we consider momentum rather than pressure, the speed at which your technique travels has a greater effect upon the collision than the mass of the technique. Therefore, maximize speed to maximize damage . If purpose of a technique is to break bone, then use a high velocity impact with a small target area. If purpose of a technique is to cause internal damage, then use a technique that will transfer momentum.
Physics ... Kenpo has something to do with physics? And here I got a Liberal Arts degree. DARN. it sure would have made life easier in Kenpo had I gone with physics.
-MB
(at least if I am talking to engineers and physicist)
-MB
(at least if I am talking to engineers and physicist)
J
jeffkyle
Guest
You got a liberal arts degree? Aren't you a judge?
The degree was in Government back in 1977 at UT-Austin, then I went to Grad school, then .... but wait. Why are you asking that question in this forum as v. a PM or email, and hmm...? Why should I be answering it?
Rather than get irritated or feel challenged I will just give a short answer. If you are really interested, or want to pursue a career in administrative law, email, PM, or give me a call. An administrative law judge does things like banruptcy hearings for the Feds, or insurance appeals, etc.
I just happen to work for the Texas Board of Pardons & Paroles. So mine is more criminal and having to do with revocation of parole for technicals and/or law violations. My title is Hearing Analyst, so I also handle writs from district and federal courts, and I handle more appeals at my level. I actually review our hearing officers (administrative law judges) findings and reports for legal sufficiency and content.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It always seems more interesting to others than to me. Before I did this I was a therapist (as in psycho) working for MHMR, Child & Family Service, etc. It is a weird long story how I ended up here, and way, way off topic.
To bring us back on topic ...
...except in the meantime, I learned how to disrupt other's kinetic energy so they contributed to the impact of my strikes. This was the one thing lacking in WhiteTiger's post that Kenpo excels at, and that is Borrowed Force. I often tell my students that I try to get my opponent's to hit themselves against my weapons just as hard as they can. This was a paraphrase from something Mr. Parker said in a seminar once and was something Howard Silva stressed when teaching here in Austin.
-MB
Rather than get irritated or feel challenged I will just give a short answer. If you are really interested, or want to pursue a career in administrative law, email, PM, or give me a call. An administrative law judge does things like banruptcy hearings for the Feds, or insurance appeals, etc.
I just happen to work for the Texas Board of Pardons & Paroles. So mine is more criminal and having to do with revocation of parole for technicals and/or law violations. My title is Hearing Analyst, so I also handle writs from district and federal courts, and I handle more appeals at my level. I actually review our hearing officers (administrative law judges) findings and reports for legal sufficiency and content.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It always seems more interesting to others than to me. Before I did this I was a therapist (as in psycho) working for MHMR, Child & Family Service, etc. It is a weird long story how I ended up here, and way, way off topic.
To bring us back on topic ...
...except in the meantime, I learned how to disrupt other's kinetic energy so they contributed to the impact of my strikes. This was the one thing lacking in WhiteTiger's post that Kenpo excels at, and that is Borrowed Force. I often tell my students that I try to get my opponent's to hit themselves against my weapons just as hard as they can. This was a paraphrase from something Mr. Parker said in a seminar once and was something Howard Silva stressed when teaching here in Austin.
-MB
J
jeffkyle
Guest
I am truly sorry! I guess I spoke before I thunk! It was just a weird connection between the degree and the current profession to me. Once again. Sorry!
And thanks for the PM.
-MB
-MB
R
RCastillo
Guest
Great, no wonder the prisons are busting at the seams!
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
It's not lacking, he just used the physics explanation for it... and added a small example
Well, that's if what I understand as borrowed force is the same as everyone else here.
W
WhiteTiger
Guest
You should read the article a little more carefully...
"It also means that an onrushing opponent who is impaled on a well-rooted reverse punch will sustain more damage than a stationary opponent. The effect of having a firm stance is most important when the opponent is stepping toward you, therefore, your best strategy for causing damage is to wait for the opponent to step toward you with an attack, deflect the attack, and then use a well-rooted reverse counter punch. "
I believe this excerpt from the posted article addresses the "Barrowed Force" concept.
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