Kenpo Hands

[Mike Att]

When I speak of hitting with power, I am not talking about "muscling up" on strikes. I am speaking of finishing your strikes and putting body mass behind the blows. A lot of times people want to appear as though they are moving really fast and cut their strikes way short of the target and wind up only moving their hands without the body behind it.

Speed is of course one of the things that make ken/mpo an effective fighting art, but speed for the sake of speed, with little regard for the impact of the blows, diminishes the arts effectivness.

 

[Danjo]

It's been mentioned about "Set-up Shots" and that brings up another question. In Jack Dempsey's book on how to fight, he talked about the "Jab" and said that he and other old time boxers prefered to call them "Jolts" because they would be delivered in a more powerful fasion than what came later. He basically delivered his "Jab" with what we call a drag-step in Kajukenbo where the landing of the forward foot and the forward fist were simultaneous. It was still a "set up shot" for the crosses, overhands, hooks etc. , but it wasn't a throw-away shot in the least. Also reminds me of Larry Holmes' jabs that could knock a person down.

Should "set-up" shots be essentially non-powerful shots that serve merely to annoy or distract on their own, or should they be used to actually do damage?

 

[Danjo]

When I speak of hitting with power, I am not talking about "muscling up" on strikes. I am speaking of finishing your strikes and putting body mass behind the blows. A lot of times people want to appear as though they are moving really fast and cut their strikes way short of the target and wind up only moving their hands without the body behind it.

Speed is of course one of the things that make ken/mpo an effective fighting art, but speed for the sake of speed, with little regard for the impact of the blows, diminishes the arts effectivness.

I agree in that I have seen the difference between people rushing through techniques and being sloppy and those that look very crisp and clean in their execution of the same techniques. It seems to me that those that are in the latter group have more power in their movements without sacrificing speed.

 

[MJS]

It's been mentioned about "Set-up Shots" and that brings up another question. In Jack Dempsey's book on how to fight, he talked about the "Jab" and said that he and other old time boxers prefered to call them "Jolts" because they would be delivered in a more powerful fasion than what came later. He basically delivered his "Jab" with what we call a drag-step in Kajukenbo where the landing of the forward foot and the forward fist were simultaneous. It was still a "set up shot" for the crosses, overhands, hooks etc. , but it wasn't a throw-away shot in the least. Also reminds me of Larry Holmes' jabs that could knock a person down.

Should "set-up" shots be essentially non-powerful shots that serve merely to annoy or distract on their own, or should they be used to actually do damage?

I would say they could work both ways. Take for example a defense against a wrist grab. If we go straight to a release, the opponent is focusing all of his attention on what he's doing. Now, prior to our main defense, we do a quick flick with our fingers to the eyes or a quick kick to the shin. This is not meant to do anything more than distract him, so we can execute our defense.

On the other hand, a technique against a punch. We do an initial block. I'm not only blocking to avoid getting hit, but I'm blocking hard enough to possibly do some damage to the arm. It may be nothing more than deadening the arm for a moment, but its damage nonetheless.

Mike

 

[kidswarrior]

I would say they could work both ways. Take for example a defense against a wrist grab. If we go straight to a release, the opponent is focusing all of his attention on what he's doing. Now, prior to our main defense, we do a quick flick with our fingers to the eyes or a quick kick to the shin. This is not meant to do anything more than distract him, so we can execute our defense.

On the other hand, a technique against a punch. We do an initial block. I'm not only blocking to avoid getting hit, but I'm blocking hard enough to possibly do some damage to the arm. It may be nothing more than deadening the arm for a moment, but its damage nonetheless.

Mike

A very good breakdown of the concept and two alternate applications. Your answer reminds me of the admonition of Kane and Wilder in The Way of Kata: Strike to disrupt, Disrupt to strike. And of course, even tho' they're speaking of Goju Ryu, the same concept is probably found in every art.

 

[kidswarrior]

It's been mentioned about "Set-up Shots" and that brings up another question. In Jack Dempsey's book on how to fight, he talked about the "Jab" and said that he and other old time boxers prefered to call them "Jolts" because they would be delivered in a more powerful fasion than what came later. He basically delivered his "Jab" with what we call a drag-step in Kajukenbo where the landing of the forward foot and the forward fist were simultaneous. It was still a "set up shot" for the crosses, overhands, hooks etc. , but it wasn't a throw-away shot in the least. Also reminds me of Larry Holmes' jabs that could knock a person down.

Should "set-up" shots be essentially non-powerful shots that serve merely to annoy or distract on their own, or should they be used to actually do damage?

Danjo, would you stop asking these hard questions! I just got the first one resolved in my my mind, and here you go again. :ultracool

Seriously, I think MJS gave an excellent reply. Something else occurs to me as I think of your description of Dempsey's 'jab' with a step drag. That's a pretty heavy-duty jab. I picture it akin to Kung Fu San Soo's extension punch, where you essentially use a straight (vertical fist) punch and long front step to drive right through him. It's the setup and followup punch rolled into one.

A jab with a step drag. Whew! Damage.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Danjo, would you stop asking these hard questions! I just got the first one resolved in my my mind, and here you go again. :ultracool

Seriously, I think MJS gave an excellent reply. Something else occurs to me as I think of your description of Dempsey's 'jab' with a step drag. That's a pretty heavy-duty jab. I picture it akin to Kung Fu San Soo's extension punch, where you essentially use a straight (vertical fist) punch and long front step to drive right through him. It's the setup and followup punch rolled into one.

A jab with a step drag. Whew! Damage.

You can be equaly effective by getting under the jab with your body. I didn't say the shots should be weak throw aways, I said they shouldn't require much energy.
Sean

 

[Danjo]

You can be equaly effective by getting under the jab with your body. I didn't say the shots should be weak throw aways, I said they shouldn't require much energy.
Sean

Ideally, proper technique should take less energy to do effectively. However, I think your opener should be something substantial for a couple of reasons. 1) you might not get a second shot and 2) if the guy is pumped up with adrenaline or "psyched up" he may not feel it if it's a blow meant only to distract him.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ideally, proper technique should take less energy to do effectively. However, I think your opener should be something substantial for a couple of reasons. 1) you might not get a second shot and 2) if the guy is pumped up with adrenaline or "psyched up" he may not feel it if it's a blow meant only to distract him.

Speed of action and you getting off the line of attack and keeping it that way, takes precidence. Minor shots are not distractions they are key building blocks for successfull major shots. (see Mike Tyson learning that lesson in his later fights) If the guy is open and unprepared, by all means take the major shot.
Sean

 

[jdinca]

I just learned something huge here! Truly an Aha! moment. I have practiced and taught the Kempo strikes such as claws, rigid fingers (as spear hand), etc. with some body movement, but hadn't put it together. Now I see, for my kempo at least, these were never just arm strikes. Thanks, jdinca! :asian:

Exactly. Power developed from relaxation--slow repitition of good form, which leads to relaxed speed, which in turn = power generated--is not even close to the same as 'muscling it,' which implies struggling to make arm power enough.

:asian: Just passing on what I've been taught.

 

[jdinca]

It's been mentioned about "Set-up Shots" and that brings up another question. In Jack Dempsey's book on how to fight, he talked about the "Jab" and said that he and other old time boxers prefered to call them "Jolts" because they would be delivered in a more powerful fasion than what came later. He basically delivered his "Jab" with what we call a drag-step in Kajukenbo where the landing of the forward foot and the forward fist were simultaneous. It was still a "set up shot" for the crosses, overhands, hooks etc. , but it wasn't a throw-away shot in the least. Also reminds me of Larry Holmes' jabs that could knock a person down.

Should "set-up" shots be essentially non-powerful shots that serve merely to annoy or distract on their own, or should they be used to actually do damage?

Depends on the purpose of the set up shot. Are you trying to just distract so that other targets are open, or are you trying to strike him hard enough to hurt him and move him into a more vulnerable position for something more devastating?

A quick jab may daze, or distract your opponent long enough to drive your other fist/knee, whatever, into a more vulnerable target before he can react. A quick jab can also be hard enough for your opponent to stagger back a little, drop his guards with the result being his entire core is open to all kinds of fun and mayhem. What the result is will all depend on your technique, how accurate your strike was and to what extent your opponent was able to take it. A jab that hits the cheek, or forehead may just cause a momentary distraction. A jab that hits where the chin becomes the jaw could stagger him back, or even drop him. You won't know what the results are until after the strike is delivered.

It also depends on what the set up shot is. If I'm doing a rigid claw to the eyes, I want the altercation done and over with now because he's trying to kill me. That's the only reason I would use that strike. But, it's not the only strike I'm going to do because it may miss. The same goes for a half fist to the throat. It's life and death and the order of things should be my life and his death. Yes, I would try and save his life after I tried to take it. After all, it's what I do.

A heel hand to the face, or a punch to the solar plexus is more likely to be used as a set up for something that can be more damaging. Yes, they can end the attack but chances are you may need to follow up with something else to finish the job.

 

[kidswarrior]

When I speak of hitting with power, I am not talking about "muscling up" on strikes. I am speaking of finishing your strikes and putting body mass behind the blows. A lot of times people want to appear as though they are moving really fast and cut their strikes way short of the target and wind up only moving their hands without the body behind it.

Speed is of course one of the things that make ken/mpo an effective fighting art, but speed for the sake of speed, with little regard for the impact of the blows, diminishes the arts effectivness.

Finishing your blows with body mass behind them is exactly right, even, as jdinca said, the claws, etc. :ultracool

 

[LawDog]

Kenpo Hands are strikes that do what ever you indended them to do.
Be it to:
*hit and cause a break, to stun or control,
*create set ups or multi patterns.
All of our presets train us so that we can do these simple things.
It's all good stuff.

 

[Joe Shuras]

The phrase "Kenpo/Kempo Hands" has been used by various practitioners for years. I have a video with that title by Larry Tatum and also by Nick Cerio. However, they are quite different in application, though both are using multiple hand striking. I've seen the lightning-fast strikes by some that do not seem to be very powerful, and the very powerful strikes by some that do not seem to be very fast. Here's the question: how do you tend to strike when employing "Kenpo Hands"? Do you favor speed over power, or the opposite? Do you favor a rapid flurry of less powerful strikes or a few well placed powerful shots? Do you favor actual blows delivered by the hand, or clawing and poking type strikes?

Good thread Dan, this question is thrown around a lot and is a favorite of mine to discuss. Here's my take.....

I think you need a balance of both which distinguishes the Kempo/Kenpo arts from others. You need to develop the power of, let's say a good boxer in your punches and a good Shotokan practitioner in your strikes BUT you should also develop speed techniques to overwelm an opponent when and if neccessary. Speed strikes would be equivilent to the boxer's jab, set your opponent up and then go in with the power shot to try to take him out. In Kempo/Kenpo we can also resort to the takedown/follow up or the lock or hold as a finishing move. Regardless of your choice, it would be the speed technique that sets it up and makes it possible. I know many here have posted the same concept. I think we're all pretty much on the same page.

Another strategy in our system is taught in the form Hansuki/Honsuki. Hansuki translates to half or small opening. I was reading an article by Ralph Castro of Shaolin KeNpo (who also practices a variation of the Hansuki form) and he was speaking of Professor Chow's teachings and wrote this theory-to find or create and opening in an opponent's defense ( if I may add, offense also) through the utilization of rapid fire hand strikes to vital areas. I take this to mean, say you have a 'worthy' opponent, you throw a barrage of strikes/punches at him to various areas/angles to confuse, startle and overwelm him, (these stikes may not have the power of one or two well placed bombs), eventually creating an opening where you can put him away with your power punches/strikes or finishing moves.

I also agree what the poster stated on Nick Cerio not going all out on hand speed but slowing down somewhat to maximize power and positioning. This was the foundation that Prof. Cerio learned from SGM. S. George Pesare and why SGM. Pesare's has put out powerful kickboxing champions over the years. I remember Mr. Pesare had a saying in the 70's when I first met him, 'the hands may be moving at 100 miles an hour but they're not going anywhere'. In other words, he would tell the class to slow down for more power and focus. He always stressed "the three'' - speed, power and accuracy. - Joe

 

[Danjo]

Kenpo Hands are strikes that do what ever you indended them to do.
Be it to:
*hit and cause a break, to stun or control,
*create set ups or multi patterns.
All of our presets train us so that we can do these simple things.
It's all good stuff.

Perhaps this is what I was looking for in terms of definition. What makes them so fast etc. is the fact that they are pre-set patterns designed along the autonomic reflex reactions of the person being hit. Whether the shots are light or heavy is not the determining factor, but rather whether they follow the above definition. They're not "One Shot: One Kill" techniques (though the first one may be all you need if it's a heavy blow to the right area). Having them be pre-set makes them much faster than they would be otherwise due to the drills that have ingrained them into the nervous system.

 

[Matt]

Perhaps this is what I was looking for in terms of definition. What makes them so fast etc. is the fact that they are pre-set patterns designed along the autonomic reflex reactions of the person being hit. Whether the shots are light or heavy is not the determining factor, but rather whether they follow the above definition. They're not "One Shot: One Kill" techniques (though the first one may be all you need if it's a heavy blow to the right area). Having them be pre-set makes them much faster than they would be otherwise due to the drills that have ingrained them into the nervous system.

I'd definitely back this answer. Prof. Kimo often says when explaining some of his pre-set drills, (paraphrasing) - boxers knock people out for a living, and they use pre-set combinations. Although his always seem to feel heavy, at least when I'm on the receiving end. :ultracool


Matt

 

[kidswarrior]

an article by Ralph Castro of Shaolin KeNpo (who also practices a variation of the Hansuki form) and he was speaking of Professor Chow's teachings and wrote this theory-to find or create and opening in an opponent's defense ( if I may add, offense also) through the utilization of rapid fire hand strikes to vital areas. I take this to mean, say you have a 'worthy' opponent, you throw a barrage of strikes/punches at him to various areas/angles to confuse, startle and overwelm him, (these stikes may not have the power of one or two well placed bombs), eventually creating an opening where you can put him away with your power punches/strikes or finishing moves.

Yes, good point. This is the place for Kempo's trademark rapid fire barage--a worthy opponent with no apparent weakness/opening. 'Disrupt to strike' (and , strike to disrupt).

 

[green meanie]

I prefer powerful well placed shots over the rapid flurry. I don't do bother with the clawing or poking at all. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Personally I prefer power strikes and I prefer to avoid pokes and claws. All those reflexes for protecting my fingers that I learned while earning a music degree...they never really went away.

This is a good reminder of jdinca's point, that even these types of strikes must be done with body 'power', i.e., full body involvement/strong intention behind the strike. This makes the claw/spear/poke strong enough not to be injured. To use the jab comparison, the jab--even if not a 'Dempsey' shot--is a strong enough fist strike not to be injured, even if blocked hard, and can easily roll into a hook, second jab, or feint and opposite hand cross. Just so, the strong kempo flurry of quick strikes can set up all manner of finishing blows with body mass following them.

And I didn't even get a music degree.

 

[marlon]

i have read the whole thread so i apologize for any redundancey. Kempo hands works best in my opinion with loose relaxed limbs that tense only on impact for a fraction of a second. of course this requires proper body alignment, quick rooting strong intention and lots of practice to make it real. speed creates power, striking with the timing that the body and strike lands simultaneaously creates power,improper body alignment and poor stances / rooting makes for weak strikes no matter what. Kempo hands works but it is not just throwing your arms and legs around as quickly as possible.

Respectfully,
marlon