Power shots in Kenpo

[MisterMike]

I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?

Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?

Can you strike your desired tagets if you dedicate full body mass in each strike, or will the person not be there, either by you moving him or your slower speed does not allow it?

Hoping to get the Kenpo wheels turning..hehehe..

 

[satans.barber]

It takes time, but look at someone like Master Tatum:

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/TatumTOWSep1Med.wmv

If that's not immense power coupled with immense speed, I don't know what is!

Ian.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by satans.barber
It takes time, but look at someone like Master Tatum:

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/TatumTOWSep1Med.wmv

If that's not immense power coupled with immense speed, I don't know what is!

Ian.

I love that Drill!

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?

Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?

Can you strike your desired tagets if you dedicate full body mass in each strike, or will the person not be there, either by you moving him or your slower speed does not allow it?

Hoping to get the Kenpo wheels turning..hehehe..

Do you really have to engage with full mass on every strike? Minor and Major Moves applies thruout the curriculum.

Minor Move- Minor effect

Minor Move-Major effect

Major Move-Minor effect

Major Move-Major effect

I don't need to engage mass when doing eye rakes or finger whips but they can have a pretty substanstial effect. Same with checks, you've got passive and active, do you need to employ full mass with an active ck? What about Borrowed force added to your existing strike? Too many variables to put this in one category.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Robbo]

That's all I have to say.

Rob

 

[MisterMike]

That looked more like a drill than a technique. Also, I don't look at a reverse handsword as a major shot.

I would however call that drill an example of moving fast. If the groin shot was also powerful, he would have bent that guy over.

I guess a case in point would be..hmm..let me think of something most of you can refer to...oh...The Perfect Weapon. They were running Five Swords so fast the opponent wasn't even moving. The dummy was still standing straight up! That was an example of running a technique fast, and not with maximum power.

I think Clyde is getting on target with an answer regarding major/minor shots and the desired results from each. This to me makes the most sense, and is how I learned as well. At some point in a technique, there is a move that should end it. It shouldn't take all 20 blocks, parries, punches, strikes, kicks, (and flicks to the eyes..lol) whatever to take somebody down, unless he's reallll big.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_5words.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_5words2.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_mills1978.htm

http://www.akki.com/vegas/september2003/video_timing.htm

Ck these out.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...while I generally agree, I would note that actually killing John on that clip would not be an indication of power. It'd be an indication of really crummy control--and unless I'm mistaken, one of the first reasons to learn control in the martial arts precisely so that when the times comes, you can really, really hit them.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Um...while I generally agree, I would note that actually killing John on that clip would not be an indication of power. It'd be an indication of really crummy control--and unless I'm mistaken, one of the first reasons to learn control in the martial arts precisely so that when the times comes, you can really, really hit them.

Yes, but what are you going to learn about power in a tap-tap drill?

My sister used to play patty-cake, but she really knows nothing about Karate.

The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.

I think I've figured out which method I prefer.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.

I think I've figured out which method I prefer.

Interesting, I've got video of Parker tapping people. Does that mean he can't hit with power? If we follow your reasoning and laid into our "training partners" with everything we had each time we did a technique, none of us would have any training partners. There is a time and a place for experimentation with contact. The guys I train with understand this so naturally there are some nights when we work sequence and mechanics and some nights where we focus on putting a little extra juice on the strikes.

I don't know how you can learn to make the techniques work unless you are willing to hammer a little bit. However, as the partnership goes you have to be willing to take a little as well, that's how you learn. Unfortunately it has been my experience that the ones who like to TRY and hit hard are the ones who can't take a hit for crap.

Anyway, The clips shown, in all cases, were merely a demonstration not an actual fight. I'm willing to bet that in all cases the participants would behave and perform quite differently if it had been.

I was wondering what people thought about Kenpo techniques and ensuring power in their strikes. Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?

Can you really hit effectively if you are moving so fast it's almost blurring?

There is a huge difference in speed for the sake of speed and what I would call functional speed. Functional speed is a state of motion with a purpose, this obviously means many things to many people but what can ya do. You really only need a few inches of movement to hit really hard assuming you have decent to good body mechanics (most people don't realize this, because most people can't do it).

Also, this idea of speed is totally subjective. What I consider using economy of motion, appropriate targeting, appropriate method of execution, appropriate body mechanics, 3-dimensional projection, optimal patterns of movement with optimal muscle contraction sequences somebody else will call fast. I just call it normal. Now I agree there are alot of people who try to move fast just for the sake of moving fast, but this is because they haven't been taught or they don't understand the required principles and mechanics for increasing their speed. Don't get me wrong, I don't know all there is to know, but from this line of questioning I'm willing to bet that I know more about it than you do.

So the answer to your question is yes, you can hit hard while moving at mind numbing speeds (remember the term fast is subjective) as long as you understand the appropriate principles and concepts.

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Do you feel there is a trade-off in power and speed?

Power= Force * velocity

You do the math.

 

[MisterMike]

I don't know all there is to know, but from this line of questioning I'm willing to bet that I know more about it than you do

Isn't it quite possible that people asking questions on a Bulletin Board are doing so becuase they would like to hear from people, potentially those who know more and are able to answer the question?

I'm not sure why you had to try to place yourself above me in writing - maybe it's the same complex commonly found in the many West coast Kenpo practitioners I've met.

At least you can agree that there is a thing as too fast - something many on this board apparently can't.

My question was not one originating from ignorance, but rather to hear what people say. For you to try and use it as a stab at me is just rediculous. My reasoning never lead to the conclusion you have to "lay into our partners." Your baseless line of questioning from your skewed vision really has only led me to conclude, yes, you are a Kenpo Yahoo.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Elfan
Power= Force * velocity

You do the math.

The math is easy, thanks. A linear expression like that is something an 8th grader can learn, but it seems some "Kenpoists" feel like they are Ed Parker's prodigy when they can type them into a message.

But I'm beginning to not expect much more from these posts.

 

[pete]

hey mike,

i couldn't agree with you more on multiple counts.

first, SPEED KILLS! I've been able to adapt my Tai Chi practice to Kenpo, where precision and unity in motion are used to influence training. I'm working on formalizing specific drills and practices to help introduce this to others. I find that speed is emphasized to early in the development of Kenpo skills, which results frequently in sloppy execution and loss of intent and targeting in techniques.

But, dare I say, this be Cross-Training, and may have a degenerative effect on the complete art of Kenpo.

I'd hate to lump in the whole California scene with a couple of guys we encounter here, 'cause i did meet several out at the Boston IKCs that were alright in my book!

Keep up the good posts!

 

[Michael Billings]

Isn't it mass X acceleration = Power ??

 

[kenpo_cory]

"I'm not fast, I just use my body efficiently which creates an illusion of speed." Like the "slow" receiver in football whose always open, it's not the speed but the effective proper execution that kills you.

Ed parker Sr.

 

[MisterMike]

Force = Mass X acceleration (as you accelerate, Power increases)

Power = Work / Time (as time shortens, you have more power)


This is 4 years of Engineering school talking...but they, what do I know.

All in good fun,

 

[Elfan]

My point was that speed is a component of power. They increase together, not in an inverse relashionship.

All else being constant, a faster strike is a more powerful strike.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

My question was not one originating from ignorance, but rather to hear what people say. For you to try and use it as a stab at me is just rediculous. My reasoning never lead to the conclusion you have to "lay into our partners." Your baseless line of questioning from your skewed vision really has only led me to conclude, yes, you are a Kenpo Yahoo.

Well let's see, there was this statement regarding one video.

I would however call that drill an example of moving fast. If the groin shot was also powerful, he would have bent that guy over.

Since I already covered the idea that this was a demonstration video, I'll leave it alone. Oh yeah, there was also this one.

The initial reasoning behind my post was because, and LOL, those videos Clyde posted are a perfect example LOL, you can hit someone with power, and manipulate where their body goes, or you can slap them until your hands are pink and leave them still standing.

I think I've figured out which method I prefer.

I wonder where my "rediculous" thoughts could have emerged from.

You mentioned that you have a background in engineering which means that at the very least you took some form of engineering physics, statics, and dynamics. Perhaps if you went back and looked over some of that course material you could answer your own question. Let me ask you this, if you have an object following a circular path of action at a given velocity, what could you do to increase the velocity of that particular object? How about decreasing the radius of it's circular path in mid flight. Now think about how this might apply to kenpo.

The problem is that everyone tries to explain things in terms of power, kinetic energy, and the like. Unfortunately, most of these people don't really understand the physics well enough to take it beyond the 8th grade level. If you want to understand the idea of speed and what you refer to as "power" then perhaps you should review the concepts of colliding bodies like, linear (circular) momentum, coefficient of restitution, moments of force, structural analysis, etc. If you hammer through something like the human mandible along the tip of the jaw then you create a large moment of force at the hinge and supporting muscles. Would this not have more of an effect than hitting higher up? Well it depends on what you are trying to accomplish, but I'm sure we've all seen a boxer or PRIDE fighter get clipped in the first round because they got hit "just right."

 

[WhiteTiger]

I suggest reading this article, I think it can be of benefit to this thread.
http://www.georgiakenpo.net/articles/article_2.htm