Political Arrogance

[JAMJTX]

why is our government better than their's?

Well, for starters, our government does not have rape rooms for the president and his sons to drag women off to and have thier way. Although I suppose you can say that Bill Clinton used the oval office in a similar way.

To my knowldege, President Bush has not been torturing, gassing and murdering politcal dissenters the way Saddam has.

In looking at the reaction of the Iraqi people, they are not welcoming the idea of what to some looks like an occupation of thier country, but clearly, the majority are grateful that hussein is gone and they have some taste of freedom.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Please cite some evidence for your claims.

 

[pkozub]

why is our government better than their's?

Well, for starters, our government does not have rape rooms for the president and his sons to drag women off to and have thier way. Although I suppose you can say that Bill Clinton used the oval office in a similar way.

To my knowldege, President Bush has not been torturing, gassing and murdering politcal dissenters the way Saddam has.

In looking at the reaction of the Iraqi people, they are not welcoming the idea of what to some looks like an occupation of thier country, but clearly, the majority are grateful that hussein is gone and they have some taste of freedom.

What do you call Abu-Ghraib?

 

[47MartialMan]

Wow, politics and martial arts...whomever thought that it can be hand in hand?

 

[Tgace]

What do you call Abu-Ghraib?

Wrong...but still a far cry from those examples.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Hey, you folks are right. I've been agreeing all along, haven't I? Whenever we face evil in the world, we should ignore it. We shouldn't get involved. After all, who are we to interfere? Who are we to decide?

It's like when you see a woman being raped on the street. Who are we to judge her relationship to her rapist? By what legal means do we, as mere citizens who are not police officers or members of the military, presume to get involved?

Here name was Kitty Genovese, I think...

 

[47MartialMan]

It appears to me that you think conservatively.

 

[pkozub]

Wrong...but still a far cry from those examples.

How is it off, though? Thoes people were tortured, humiliated,, etc., etc., by OUR OWN TROOPS. In their eyes, we're the devil coming to screw them and cause chaos. Yeah, they weren't <i>exactly</i> raped, but would you like to have some of the things happen to you that the POWs endured?

 

[Makalakumu]

Wrong...but still a far cry from those examples.

At Abu-Ghraib, little boys were raped and people were sodomized with broomsticks. Is this such a far cry from SHussien?

 

[Phoenix44]

I agree that Iraqi democratic self rule is better than an oppressive dictatorship. However I still don't believe for one minute that George W. Bush was or is particularly concerned with the welfare of the poor Iraqi people. I don't find him particularly concerned about poor American people either.

His casus belli was weapons of mass destruction, and Saddam's imminent ability and desire to attack the United States. It was only after it became clear to the American public that this was not true that he developed other "concerns," like "liberating" the Iraqi people. Unfortunately, the administration had a plan to take out Saddam, but no plan to "liberate" or enfranchise the Iraqi people.

Now, you may argue that the end justifies the means. But we haven't seen the "end" yet.

There is a large contingent in the new Iraqi Parliament who are Islamists. What happens if they want a theocracy? What happens if they decide that, like our buddies in Saudi Arabia, women will have no rights? Well we already know that Bush has always turned a blind eye to Saudi women--do you believe he'd intervene for Iraqi women, "liberating" them?

What happens if they decide they want a more socialistic government, where Iraq controls the oil, gas, electricity, and telecommunications. Do you really believe Bush will say, OK, no problema, you free Iraqis deserve self rule, so Halliburton and I will just pack up and leave?

If you believe that, I suggest you go back and re-read the "Project for the New American Century."

 

[47MartialMan]

Rather Bush, or any other politician have a agenda for making more money, at least, if it will happen, the people would not be ruled by Hussein. However, I dont see the US going after Iran or Korea....hmnnnn

 

[47MartialMan]

But what most people do not realize....follow the examples of previous wars. It takes time and with a occupying insurgence, to organize and create structure and time, to return things to a state of civilized order.

People do not know that we, or the allies, still had problems with small terrorizing infactions of Nazis still in Germany after the war. We just did go in there, win, at leave. We had to reamon there until everything became into order. it took several years after the war to do this. And yes, the U.S. and Russia were getting their own "action". I guess any actvity after war, politically or financially, could be considered "the spoils".

 

[Melissa426]

Hello,
However, I feel that it is necessary to take a different perspective on how we have imposed our form of government on a people that are used to a dictatorship. I do not deny that Hussein is/was a sick and twisted individual, but he was their ruler, and for the time being it was working. Think about it: why is our government better than their's? Because we have proof? NO! There's just as much corruption as there is anywhere else! My point is this: "democracy is the best" is an OPINION, not a FACT

"For the time being, it was working."

Working for who? Saddam and his co-horts for sure. For the average Iraqi?
For the Kurds who were gassed? For the who knows how many 1000's killed and tortured by Saddam and co.?

Also, for the sake of argument, since this post is about forms of government, do you think America and other countries were right to sit idly by while Hitler rose to power and initated his plans to exterminate the Jewish race and other undesirables? Hitler was the ruler and some might say his government was "working" for the German people.

I don't believe you do, not for a second. (There are many geo/political differences between the two situations, let's not get into that) I don't believe GW went to war with the main goal to "liberate" the Iraqis, but while we're there, what is wrong with helping them establish some form of self-government, as opposed to a dictatorship? If the Iraqi people decide on a theocracy or monarchy, yeah, that's a risk. But maybe , it is worth it?

Also, in a true democracy, we get to kick our ******** out of office if they are not serving our (or a least a majority ) interests.

Tough questions and I don't pretend to have the answer.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[47MartialMan]

Yeah, everyone wants to be anti-US government this or that. Id rather be living in the US than anywhere else.

 

[Blind]

Hey, you folks are right. I've been agreeing all along, haven't I? Whenever we face evil in the world, we should ignore it. We shouldn't get involved. After all, who are we to interfere? Who are we to decide?

It's like when you see a woman being raped on the street. Who are we to judge her relationship to her rapist? By what legal means do we, as mere citizens who are not police officers or members of the military, presume to get involved?

Cambodia comes to mind here, was Pol Pot supported by the CIA?

 

[Phil Elmore]

The CIA and Wal*Mart. Bastards.

 

[Makalakumu]

Cambodia comes to mind here, was Pol Pot supported by the CIA?

Pol Pot came to power because our attempted "domino effect" theory failed in Vietnam. Now we have another "domino effect" theory in place...

See this thread.

upnorthkyosa

 

[rmcrobertson]

From good old Mark Twain's, "The Stupendous Procession," written back when he worked on the Anti-Imperialist league, one hundred and five years ago:

A GREETING FROM THE NINETEENTH TO THE TWENTIETH CENTURY

I bring you the stately nation named Christendom, returning,
bedraggled, besmirched, and dishonored, from pirate raids in Kiao-
Chou, Manchuria, South Africa, and the Philippines, with her soul
full of meanness, her pocket full of boodle, and her mouth full of
pious hypocrisies. Give her soap and towel, but hide the looking-
glass...


As the good old French would say, "Plus ca change, plus c'est le same frickin' thing."

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Wow.. Neat thread.

I see both points being made here. To analogize:



I see the valiant knight rushing off to help those he can. He may not have the perfect country, and he cannot cure all the sick, heal all the injured, make the blind see and crippled walk, but he has tried... He understands he is human and can’t fix every social injustice because to try would be a social injustice. So he looks to find the perceived Evil where he hears his neighbors scream and do what he feels is doable.



I also hear the voice of our common conscience trying to justify our knight leaving to help others when he has needy at home. It wants proof that the knight is indeed fixing something that: 1.) Can be fixed 2.) Should be fixed 3.) Is the knight the one who should fix 4.) Is the evil real, or is just someone else’s right.



Now before someone starts with accusations of wanting to "Knight" Mr. Bush, I don’t. He won, get over it. Vote again next time. My analogy of the Knight is our country, past, present and future. There IS evil in the world. WE can do something about it. Our culture has created, built, cured, and healed more than every other culture in the world, throughout history. WE are AMERICANS and we try to do the right thing.



Now before someone starts with the accusations of consorting with the commies, we do have a litany of things at home our resources could be applied towards. Our way of life is not for everyone. Our country and culture is rare and voluntary. Our country has taken in every race, culture and religion from every mound of dirt on Earth and made them American. This does not give us the moral authority to float 4.5 acres of US airstrip off the coast of the "Peoples Republic of Mr. I Hate America" and incinerate them.



The previous post of the poor guy walking the 10x10 perimeter is appropriate and in some cases the moral course of action, may be to do nothing.



It may have been sarcasm about seeing the lady on the street getting raped and beaten and us doing nothing but I recall another thread with a post about someone rushing to the rescue only to then be attacked by the victim because it was "her husband and she loves him". Battered woman syndrome, Stockholm syndrome, what ever you want to label it, sometimes those who make their bed must sleep in it.



I have answered no questions, I offer no answers (at this time), but respect for both sides I not only have, but also protect. (See 1st & 2nd Amendments)

 

[47MartialMan]

Wow, I love analogies. That knight one was GREAT!!!!!!!

The follow-up was too.....

So in short:

"You're damned if You Do, and damned if You Don't"