point fighting vs. real fighting

[JadeDragon3]

My question is can a tournament fighter (that is a point fighter) be able to fight effectively on the street. Can a point fighter really fight or do they have a false sense of security? Do they still possess the skills neccessary to defeat an attacker (the average Joe) on the street? I'm just interested in what everyone thinks.

 

[JBrainard]

There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would guess that someone who has it ingrained in them to make light or no contact at all to get a point might pull thier punches in a SD situation simply out of habit. Needless to say, that's not good.
Just my $0.02

 

[Skip Cooper]

Wow! The question of the ages, I suppose. That right along with which fighting art is superior and my sensei can beat up your sensei...

My own take on this matter is that anyone trained in the art of fighting will usually fair better than those who are untrained. How's that for fence sitting?

I will apply it to my own experience in athletics. When I played football, we would not train at our maximum potential when it came to hitting. When running through plays, we went at it at about 75% or so. This was to limit injuries during practice. Sure, we had some hitting drills that we went all out, but when it came to scrimmaging and running through plays it was a bit lighter. On gameday, we went at it at 100%. The lighter touch of practice did not take away from the reality of game day.

I suspect that it would be the same for a person trained for point sparring competition who is faced with a real fight on the street...but then again, I could be wrong all together.

 

[bowser666]

Wow! The question of the ages, I suppose. That right along with which fighting art is superior and my sensei can beat up your sensei...

My own take on this matter is that anyone trained in the art of fighting will usually fair better than those who are untrained. How's that for fence sitting?

I will apply it to my own experience in athletics. When I played football, we would not train at our maximum potential when it came to hitting. When running through plays, we went at it at about 75% or so. This was to limit injuries during practice. Sure, we had some hitting drills that we went all out, but when it came to scrimmaging and running through plays it was a bit lighter. On gameday, we went at it at 100%. The lighter touch of practice did not take away from the reality of game day.

I suspect that it would be the same for a person trained for point sparring competition who is faced with a real fight on the street...but then again, I could be wrong all together.

Not to mention that in a real life situation there will be the adrenaline factor which will add to power and speed.

 

[stickarts]

It comes down to understanding the difference between the two forms of training and being able to make the adjustment from point fighting to a real fight when necessary. I have known those that have done it so I know it can be done.

 

[thardey]

The biggest differences I've seen has to do a lot with distance - point fighters tend to be about 4-6" farther away, so they can react more quickly to the "leap and touch" scores. (At least in my style, where punches are counted the same as kicks), also, the point-fighter tends to rely more on double-kicks, feinting kicks, and high kicks.

The guys who are training for brawling, and who have had experience with it, tend to be a little closer, so their strikes "drive through" their opponent, also they tend to be able to trade "light punches" for damaging ones. That is, they're more likely to allow themselves to get hit in a minor area, in order to get a strike onto the centerline, or a specific target.

There are two guys I've sparred with a lot - one is an FBI field agent, with many stories about people "resisting" and the other is a national-level sport competitor. I would often spar with both of them back-to-back, and those were the obvious differences I would see.

If you can take a good, fast strike, and deliver it 3" closer, you can cause some damage - the hard part is programming that critical distance into your "instinct."

 

[tshadowchaser]

Point fighting is based on speed more than anything else with an emphases on light touch and little to no contact. Street fighting is based on survival of the incident.
Yes a good point fighter can be effective in the street if they realize that all strikes need to be delivered with authority and penetration.
Street fighting also involves those techniques not allowed in point fighting and the point fighter must be able to see such techniques coming at him and be able to use them also

 

[thardey]

Point fighting is based on speed more than anything else with an emphases on light touch and little to no contact. Street fighting is based on survival of the incident.
Yes a good point fighter can be effective in the street if they realize that all strikes need to be delivered with authority and penetration.
Street fighting also involves those techniques not allowed in point fighting and the point fighter must be able to see such techniques coming at him and be able to use them also

That's a good point, you can easily get programmed to respond to a limited number of attacks. Something as simple as a low kick to the knee may not register on the subconscious until it's too late.

 

[Empty Hands]

The method of training is the critical component in how that training gets turned into actual reaction fer realz. Nothing in point sparring prevents you from being an effective fighter. However, if that is all you do, then you are not prepared. Before anyone can say they can fight for real they need to know what it really means to fight under pressure and under attack. They need to have experienced hard punches to the face and hard kicks elsewhere. They need to have experienced keeping cool under the pressure of an all out assault. Otherwise, they don't really know how they will react when that time comes, and they may freeze when their opponent flips the script on the point sparring encounter.

 

[kroh]

The point was already made that a fighter needs to understand the difference between playing tag and actually hitting some one for real. Can a point fighter throw real damage when they have to? It depends on the person and how they train. If you practice hitting objects(pads, partners, etc) like you hit your opponents in the ring then most likely you will be mobile but incapable of doing real damage to some one. Of course, adrenaline and survival instincts are great moitvators along with the idea that everyone gets lucky once in a while...

Since we live in a civilized society and most if not all of us have to go to work (school, etc.) in the morning, I guesswe will always have point fighting and arguments for or against it.

Me personally, I'll suffer the stitches and bruises...

Regards,
Walt

 

[kroh]

Duplacate post deleted
by tshadowchaser,

 

[Deaf Smith]

My question is can a tournament fighter (that is a point fighter) be able to fight effectively on the street. .

Sure. Depends on the person. Some people can hit with whatever power they want, it's called control. Some overdo it with no practice on bags full power nor sparring with contact. But sure you can be a point fighter and a full contact figher.

Can a point fighter really fight or do they have a false sense of security? Do they still possess the skills neccessary to defeat an attacker (the average Joe) on the street? I'm just interested in what everyone thinks.

Again, don't lump everone in a particular category. There will be people who train only for point fighting and never learn how to fight. There will be full contact fighters that have such a limited tool set they may not be able to adapt when people don't fight there way.

It's far more the individual than anything.

Deaf

 

[chinto]

yes I believe a point fighter can survive on the street if he practices some time on makawara and or heavy bag and such to make sure he has the training in focus and penetration of the blow... he should also from time to time practice with out stopping after the point kind of thing. as others have pointed out.. point fighting is tag, and on the street its survival. but with a little work and though a good point fighter can make sure if he has to on the street can.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I have known several fighters who were able to bridge the gap from point reat success in full contact. Guys like Joe Lewis, Jeff Smith, Bill Wallace, and Benny Urquidez all made a very successful transition from a successful competitive career as a point fighter to a full contact fighter. I have known others who were able to cross back and forth at will. Guys like Alvin Prouder, Sammy Montgomery and Ray McCallum were top ranked contenders or champions at both simultaneously. (A few had notable careers in fighting in the parking lots after their matches as well, but I won't go any further on that one,,,)

IMO, point fighting is a very good drill for developing the ability in kids and beginners to target their techniques to the openings and avoid the "rock 'em-sock 'em robot" approach that many will otherwise engage in. Even for more advanced practioners, it is a good drill for learning how to bridge the gap, hit and clear without being hit. This is great for working on your probing strikes as well as breaking timing, angles of attack, ect. The problem is when people put TOO much of an emphasis on point sparring or build their fighting/training habits at being good at the game.

If all you do is "practice missing people", then that is what you will be good at. Also, adrenal stress will more than likely make this situation worst rather than magically correct it for you. In a real fight there is rarely a "break" when someone is scored on (shot is landed), it usually means the fight is really on. Many who mainly focus on point sparring forget this and will either depend on this to protect them or not capitalize on the oppurtunity because they have trained that way. Remember the way you train is the way you react. Also, many who rely on point sparring for all their sparring needs will often rely on techniques and strategies that will actually put them at greater risk in a real life situation. They develop habits like turning their backs to avoid being scored on, training to hit with their toes on round kicks for more reach (and wondering why they broke the toes or tarsal bones in their foot on hard contact... and worst why their opponent didn't stop fighting after they hurt their foot), Expecting the overhand back knuckle to the skull to hurt their opponent/attacker than it hurt their hand, ect.

IMO, point sparring can be a good tool to overcome some challenges a student will often have in the early phases of their training ad can even be a useful drill for more advanced fighters if not over used. It can easily become a problem though when it is overdone or the majority of ones sparring is geared and adapted to being good at this particular game. Point sparring can be a good training drill, so can forms and so can one-steps. As drills and supplemental training, they can all be valuable tools in your training arsenal if used properly. The main problem with ANY of these is not the value of when they are done right. It's the volume of how many people use them in the wrong way that actually can be either a time buster or worst, create bad, unrealistic habits and expectations that a student would have been better off without in the first place. This is not really the failure of the drill, but more a failure of the instructor to teach it properly and in the proper context.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Sorry, part of the first paragraph on my last post got deleted. It was supposed to say: "I have known several fighters who were able to bridge the gap from great success in point sparring to great successs in full contact." Hope that makes a little more sense than what is posted.

 

[shihansmurf]

Any sort of fighting, even light contact point sparring, is better than not sparring as a method of preparing one for the street. That being said, and with the proviso that I think that heavy contact fighing is far superior to point sparring for this purpose, I would have to say it depends on the individual martial artist in question. I've known guys that were killers in the point ring that I would beat silly when we went to heavy contact. I've also worked out with guys that were outstanding point fighters and were death on roller skates when they were in real life self-defence situations.

The attributes of timing and spped are valuable in any sort of fight but I think that the tendency to pull punches, while overstated I'm sure, is a factor.

So in effect I guess I don't have a difinitive view except "it depends on the fighter".

Yours in Unhelpfullness
Mark

 

[Kacey]

There is no one answer to this - it depends on what the person does other than point sparring (if anything). Sufficient examples have already been given that I won't belabor the point.

 

[BLACK LION]

you do what you train..... if you train and compete in a social setting, you will most likely bring social skill into an asocial setting in wich you are in grave danger....

to combat asocial(street) situations one must train asocially(viod of anything social)

this is the very reason tito ortiz was beat silly on the street in london.... he attempted to utilise his social training in mma to combat a situation void of social content....

 

[Skip Cooper]

you do what you train..... if you train and compete in a social setting, you will most likely bring social skill into an asocial setting in wich you are in grave danger....

to combat asocial(street) situations one must train asocially(viod of anything social)

this is the very reason tito ortiz was beat silly on the street in london.... he attempted to utilise his social training in mma to combat a situation void of social content....

It appears that Tito's altercation was with another MMA fighter. Here's the interview from MMA-Fighter.com...

http://www.mma-fighter.com/interviews/LeeMurray/

Here's another article listing what happened according to Matt Hughes' book Made In America...

http://www.mmalinker.com/wiki/index.php/Lee_Murray

Not exactly the apples and oranges that is of point sparring vs. real fighting...since both are trained in the same discipline. Every dog has his day, it seems.

 

[astrobiologist]

At my first full-contact kickboxing match, there was another guy who fought before me who had only ever trained in point fighting. After the fight, he and I were talking about why he got creamed and he felt like he was pulling his punches and fighting soft and had no control over it. Simply put, the mind reverts to repetition and simplicity when the body is full of adrenaline. If you train at about 5 feet of distance from your opponent all the time, then the first guy who closes that distance will have you. My advice: train in point fighting for speed and accuracy of medium to long range techniques, train in close range fighting for trapping and defense, train in grappling for throwing and ground fighting, train in long range for the "get the heck out of here scenario", train in weapons 'cause you may get attacked with them and learning weapons transfers well to open hand combat, etc. etc. etc. Or in other words, try to be well rounded in everything that you do.