McDojo gotta McDojo...
Podium promotion pessimism
- Thread starter skribs
- Start date
This->
"We've also had multiple folks lose a match, and then the winner went on to get promoted. This includes blue belts who lost to a soon-to-be purple, white belts who lost to a soon-to-be blue, and gray belts who lost to a soon-to-be yellow."
Don't focus on the belt focus on the skill.
This ->
Focus on the skill. Did the blue belt do something that you can use against white belts. Did you lose big time or did you do better than you thought you would. Where did you mess up? Did the Blue belt do something that you couldn't figure our? Ask that blue belt how did he do it.. none of what I states has anything to do about a belt. It's about focusing on the skill and using that experience to help you get better.
I grapple against people with more skills in it than me. I don't see it as a disadvantage. I see it as an opportunity to Crack their technique and an opportunity to get one step closer to their level . If they use something against me then I might take that technique and use it against someone who is the same level as me.
If you only see it as a belt thing then that's all that it will be. If you and zi spar in competition, and I win then what does the belt matter. If you win then what does the belt matter?
Focus on the skill not the belt. I personally enjoy going against people who are better than me because I know I'm going to walk away with some new skill sets.
@Tony Dismukes is a much better grappler than me. Anything he throws at me I'm going to learn from. Last time we met he went high when I was guarding low. Do you think I just shrugged thst off? Nope I asked question and thought of ways to exploit him going high.
Next time I'll meet him I'll guard low with the expectation that he will try to go high and put me in a head lock or something else. It doesn't help me to focus on his belt color. I have to focus on his skill and on mine.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Not being familiar with kicho forms, I took a look on YouTube. Yes, the beginning one is very easy and basic, (even more so than Pinan 1 as I learned it). It's actually easier than the in-house dojo form (similar to a beginning kihon form which kicho seem to be) I first learned as a brand-new student. I tried to differentiate this kind of forms from "traditional" forms in my earlier post. This is the disconnect between my post and yours (and perhaps others as well).
I guess by my use of the word "traditional" I was referring to the forms in my style, as well as other Okinawan styles. These were for the most part devised prior to WWII. Most date back to the 1800's (a couple even earlier). This was before karate was taught to the general public, so kata were not meant to be easy for kids or the casual practitioner. Thus, they were not planned with a designed progression from easy to hard. It's best to have the basics down before tackling one of these forms.
Since TKD is not karate (as many here have opined), I (chauvinistically) did not consider its unique position in TMA as a deliberately planned system designed to take the student from baby steps to full steps to running. "Traditional" is a word that perhaps needs to be clarified prior to any discussion of styles/systems to avoid misunderstanding.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
But the real parenting come in when you see how the kid reacts as a "sore looser". Are they a whiny, complaining, sore loser that makes tons of excuses for the loss, or do they take the loss as constructive criticism, dig down and work on the deficiencies?
Big difference here.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
By the way, my first time ever free sparring in a dojo happened during an introductory trial class (i.e., I wasn't even enrolled as a white belt). It also happened to be at an Isshin-ryu dojo, owned by someone who is not only well known and respected throughout Isshin-ryu, but also in the local community that I grew up in - and that was Reese Rigby. I know that he's retired now, but man... an Isshin-ryu guy telling HIM not to teach? Yeah...
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Free sparring during an intro lesson? Even more of a bad idea. Be taken out in traffic your first driving lesson? Try a double axel your first time on skates? What about the dojo's liability?
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
That's your opinion, bro. There are plenty of well known and respected names in martial arts that have white belts free sparring in their dojos. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean you're in a position to question their competence.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Yes, that's just my opinion, based on some of the reasons you quoted in the previous post above, yet did not directly address. How is this safe, especially in an intro lesson? IMO, it's better to learn the alphabet and words before learning sentences. That seems logical to me. Though I have heard of dads throwing their kids in a lake to "teach" them how to swim. There is probably a better, safer and more effective way. But that's just MY opinion.
BTW, while I noticed your earlier postings concerned striking arts, you now refer simply to MA. Are you moving the goal posts? I think grappling arts I have less potential danger for beginners and have a wider margin of error. For example, missing a takedown defense is not as bad as missing a kick to the head defense most of the time.
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You seem to think that beginners free sparing is really really dangerous. Why is that? In my experience, most of them don't hit hard enough to hurt anyone, really. If I have a newbie who I think might, I start them sparring with someone who I know is good enough that they're not going to get hurt.
The most serious injuries we've had in the last 20 years are:
1: Me. I was sparring 3 students. I blocked a front kick from one while throwing a high roundhouse at another. I got the block ahead of the kick. Basically punched their shin, but incorrectly. The proximal 1/3 of the 4th metacarpal snapped off, and the distal 2/3 split lengthwise.
2: Not a sparring injury. A 70 year old student slipped on the hardwood floor and had an avulsion fracture in her ankle.
That's all I can think of, off the top of my head.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Why do I need to address them? I'm not advocating for it. I'm simply saying what some dojos do and others don't. This doesn't put me in an actionable position.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
Me "moving the goal posts" assumes that you've won an argument concerning striking arts. I told you, you're just another guy on the internet with an opinion (and the only one on here so far with that particular opinion), versus the many well known names that I've seen in martial arts (yes, that includes striking - the only examples I've even given on this thread are striking, to address your accusation), so why would I need to move the goal posts for you? Don't flatter yourself.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Perhaps we are comparing apples and oranges? I'm basing my comments on raw novice adults sparring (especially against each other) without being padded up. I should have made this clear. In my experience, such a person is likely to be nervous, tense and unpredictable for the first time. They will have no effective defense or control. Actually, most of the pain I've received was from sparring with lower belts. I know other instructors who have said the same. Not that it's "really really dangerous," but IMO there is a potential danger that brand new students should not be subjected to, not being equipped to handle it, as well as the school owner's liability to consider.
Now, if we're talking kids bundled up in pads, that's a different story. But in either case, practicing something you don't know how to do is not very efficient, IMO. Learning how to block, relax and control one's strikes a little first, seems to me like it would make the sparring a more effective learning tool. I just don't see the advantage of doing it otherwise.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I agree with the masters of old that foundational basics come before sparring. What's the rush? TMA is a long journey.
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isshinryuronin
Senior Master
I am. Just trying to lay out my rationale based on my limited experience and study.
HighKick
Master Black Belt
Light sparring, sure. But there is a scalar difference in light and full-on hard sparring.
I think you're looking at 2, maybe 3 different things.
First, the lazy student. Rank and competition performance aren't the problem -- motivation is. Address the motivation, and her performance will improve -- or she'll go onto whatever IS motivating to her. Competition and ranking is merely a symptom.
Second, sandbagging in general. It happens, and will continue to happen. Human nature.... Trophies, bragging points, all of that are simply signs about where the focus is -- and if winning more points that way is what's important -- coaches will sandbag. They'll hold off promotions until after a tournament, do it on the podium, or right after... It's game play. If you don't like it, don't do it, and if it bugs you enough, skip the tournaments. To me, a tournament is about a chance to fight someone outside my regular groups, so I don't care about how the club comes out of it -- but I don't like to feel that my students got cheated by baltant sandbagging, either.
Third, especially in BJJ and Judo -- tournaments are part of the ranking process, often. So that tournament might be the last element of a grading. Fred's holding his own like a blue belt in class... but how will he do with people he doesn't know? If he looks good and ready, especially if he places first, you promote him. You can do it on the podium, if time and circumstances allow, and make it a big public show -- or wait until your next class. That gets into the teacher's goals and purposes...
First, the lazy student. Rank and competition performance aren't the problem -- motivation is. Address the motivation, and her performance will improve -- or she'll go onto whatever IS motivating to her. Competition and ranking is merely a symptom.
Second, sandbagging in general. It happens, and will continue to happen. Human nature.... Trophies, bragging points, all of that are simply signs about where the focus is -- and if winning more points that way is what's important -- coaches will sandbag. They'll hold off promotions until after a tournament, do it on the podium, or right after... It's game play. If you don't like it, don't do it, and if it bugs you enough, skip the tournaments. To me, a tournament is about a chance to fight someone outside my regular groups, so I don't care about how the club comes out of it -- but I don't like to feel that my students got cheated by baltant sandbagging, either.
Third, especially in BJJ and Judo -- tournaments are part of the ranking process, often. So that tournament might be the last element of a grading. Fred's holding his own like a blue belt in class... but how will he do with people he doesn't know? If he looks good and ready, especially if he places first, you promote him. You can do it on the podium, if time and circumstances allow, and make it a big public show -- or wait until your next class. That gets into the teacher's goals and purposes...
This is why it's better to focus on experience and skill instead of belt color. If your yellow belt performs at a high level then he should be put in a level that's higher than the skill level of what is classified as yellow belt.
If I were join a karate school, then the belt rank will not reflect my fighting ability, it will only reflect my rank in that school and my knowledge of Karate and probably not even that much since some of the karate techniques are similar to things that are done in Jow Ga. My biggest challenge would be to do things "The karate way" vs "The Kung fu way" of doing the same technique.
It can't be helped. I would guess this would be same if someone came from another system, did MMA, or just did some sparring with friends for fun. The only way to stop sandbagging is to base things on experience. After every match review should be made to determine if a student needs to be bumped up a level in terms of sparring, when things are clearly overkilled for the level, then it should be mandatory.
Hot Lunch
Master Black Belt
If you already have a black belt in one art (or similar status in an art that doesn't have belts), it's easy to not care. "Black belt? I've already got one."
Take PhotonGuy out of the picture, and you'll notice all over the online MA community that the expressions of not caring about belts tend to be a lot louder than expressions of black belt being a goal.
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Sure, it's like a rich person saying money doesn't matter. Rank is often a focus early on. It's when it becomes an obsession, especially in anyone who is not new to martial arts, that it can become a problem.
I find it the other way around.
isshinryuronin
Senior Master
Sandbagging has been around for a long time, even when I was competing. The concept you express is nice but requires integrity. I remember a brown belt who was winning trophies in that division for two years! Even at a strict school like mine he would probably be black belt (maybe he was and just competed as a brown).
My school took the opposite approach. We were encouraged to compete one level up. My very first tournament I was a 16-year-old green belt (rank below brown) and entered the men's brown belt division in a fairly large tournament. I lost 2-3. I felt good knowing that if I had a little more experience, I would have beat him. He ended up getting 2nd place.
MA competition is OK, but when it's the main focus, the main goal is to win often overriding other MA goals such as integrity and honor. In many sports rules are intentionally broken (when they think the refs won't see them). Winning becomes more important than honestly testing oneself against an opponent. I find it a little sad that this has infected TMA. IMO, it's up to the head of the individual school to instill certain values along with MA skills.
That's purportedly one of the characteristics we try to instill in students. It's unfortunate that so many don't actually believe it, or live it.
