Podium promotion pessimism

[Hot Lunch]

IMO, if belt rank doesn't tell the whole story, then years of experience doesn't tell much either.

In karate, some schools require students to be of a certain rank before they can free spar, while others allow students to free spar right away. Some schools have more than 9 kyu ranks, where the focus of the ranks before 9th kyu is on kihon katas (Taikyoku, Fukyu, etc), where the schools with 9 kyu ranks have you start on Pinan/Naihanchi or Geki Sai katas right away.

Years of experience in these various schools aren't going to be the same.

 

[drop bear]

There are a whole bunch of issues. And the general answer is don't over think it.

I mean we have kids who compete who are in the gym 6 days a week. One kid just got his blue belt after hitting 15, 16?

He has already had a mma fight.

Now you compare him to another 16 year old who has the same amount of time training. He will have done more hours.

And is also technically a higher belt(in that he will have more ability). But he has that more ability because he just worked harder.

I am not sure why his extra 100hrs training over theirs in a competition. Is different to someone's hundred hours over yours because they have been training for a year or two longer.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m just curious. Do students not have to demonstrate particular skills in order to achieve promotions in certain systems

Yes but the skills they are looking for may not be the same skills that apply to application or fighting. Do a kick. Kick this pad. Puch this pad, block this punch. Point sparring for application testing. We can look on youtube for belt test and we can see how light some of it is.

There are martial arts scholars and martial art warriors. The yellow belt for both are not the same skill level. I think we need both. So long as they are honest about where they stand.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, if belt rank doesn't tell the whole story, then years of experience doesn't tell much either.

In karate, some schools require students to be of a certain rank before they can free spar, while others allow students to free spar right away. Some schools have more than 9 kyu ranks, where the focus of the ranks before 9th kyu is on kihon katas (Taikyoku, Fukyu, etc), where the schools with 9 kyu ranks have you start on Pinan/Naihanchi or Geki Sai katas right away.

Years of experience in these various schools aren't going to be the same.

Quality experience vs years of experience. I would go by years of experience either, at least not by itself. Quality + accuracy are key. It means you are learning correctly. Then from there one can discuss years of experience in context.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's required for certain privileges that I want in TKD, so yes. I

But you aren't focusing on your belt in this discussion. You are talking about a yellow belt, sand bagging, and a lower belt beating a higher belt. What part of those do you need for your privileges?

Do you criticize medical students because they're soooo focused on getting their degree, they should be learning medicine instead?

The people that I know who studies medicine never talked about someone who was just starting out or about what that person was doing. My friends always spoke about what they had to accomplish and not about what someone else was doing.

The belt is just a physical token representing experience. Except the belt is generally based on more factors than just years of experience, and so serves as a better representation of skill than time-in-grade

And this is why you are always shocked about someone of a lower rank beating someone of a higher rank. It's a theme that you often visit.

Experience is also not equivalent. Someone with 2 years of experience going to a 1-hour class 2 days per week is going to have a significantly different level of skill than someone with 2 years of experience going to a 2-hour class 6 days per week.

This is still experience. The person who takes 6 classes a week for 2 years is going yo have more experience provided that the experience is correct and accurate. 20 years of fake kung and chi balls is bad experience and a lot of it. A person with 1 year of quality MMA experience will still have more quality experience than someone who spent 20 years learning stuff thst doesn't work.

Even the stuff you learn and have learned counts as your experience.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I take your belt you'll still have your martial art experience. If I take your martial art experience then what do you have?

Experience matters

 

[gyoja]

Yes but the skills they are looking for may not be the same skills that apply to application or fighting. Do a kick. Kick this pad. Puch this pad, block this punch. Point sparring for application testing. We can look on youtube for belt test and we can see how light some of it is.

There are martial arts scholars and martial art warriors. The yellow belt for both are not the same skill level. I think we need both. So long as they are honest about where they stand.

You will have to pardon my ignorance. I’ve been out of the country for quite some time and my recent competitions were mostly MMA type through the Armed Forces community. In my last TMA competition, all of the divisions were fairly balanced. Obviously there had to be winners and losers, but I didn’t observe any school that had a student entered in a division that dominated. All were fairly competent and fought well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In my last TMA competition, all of the divisions were fairly balanced. Obviously there had to be winners and losers, but I didn’t observe any school that had a student entered in a division that dominated. All were fairly competent and fought well.

Sometimes that happens when everyone performs the same and no one stands out beyond average.

 

[isshinryuronin]

while others allow students to free spar right away. Some schools have more than 9 kyu ranks, where the focus of the ranks before 9th kyu is on kihon katas (Taikyoku, Fukyu, etc), where the schools with 9 kyu ranks have you start on Pinan/Naihanchi or Geki Sai katas right away.

It seems unwise to put a new white belt into free sparring, very irresponsible. Period.

As far as getting into a traditional kata right away, this also seems unwise. How can you learn to write sentences without first learning the alphabet???

In both these situations, competence in basics is needed.

 

[Hot Lunch]

It seems unwise to put a new white belt into free sparring, very irresponsible. Period.

Light contact free sparring, as was the case at my dojo. We actually started at yellow belt there. ISKF doesn't allow it until shodan (but is full contact).

As far as getting into a traditional kata right away, this also seems unwise. How can you learn to write sentences without first learning the alphabet???

In both these situations, competence in basics is needed.

I don't think it is. Pinans and Naihanchis are not hard. IMO, if you have a separate small children's curriculum where they earn white belts with colored stripes, kihon katas are most appropriate for that, IMO. For adults, they come off as curriculum fillers.

Anko Itosu specifically designed Pinans to be the first katas in Shuri-te that new students learn. Why override that?

 

[punisher73]

IMHO, belt rank really doesn't mean much outside of your specific school/organization. It should be a bench mark for your instructor to tell at a glance what skills a student "should" possess, this is much more important in a large school with multiple classes and assistant instructors. Not as important when it is a small class and you know everybody.

 

[Hot Lunch]

One thing I'd like to add about sparring: I'd actually encourage free sparring as soon as possible. Why? Because a fresh white belt with no prior martial arts training is fresh off the... streets. You wanna know how well something will work on the streets? Try it with a white belt.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Light contact free sparring, as was the case at my dojo. We actually started at yellow belt there. ISKF doesn't allow it until shodan (but is full contact).

ISKF not allowing free sparring till black belt???? At their tournament last Nov. they had beginner and intermediate sparring divisions. I don't think it's full contact.

Pinans and Naihanchis are not hard. IMO, if you have a separate small children's curriculum where they earn white belts with colored stripes, kihon katas are most appropriate for that, IMO. For adults, they come off as curriculum fillers.

Anko Itosu specifically designed Pinans to be the first katas in Shuri-te that new students learn.

Pinans are pretty simple to learn and execute, naihanchi is much tougher to execute properly, IMO. In either case, basic kihon should be trained prior to regular traditional kata to insure getting the most out of them and help prevent doing them with bad habits.

I'd actually encourage free sparring as soon as possible. Why? Because a fresh white belt with no prior martial arts training is fresh off the... streets.

Definitely a bad idea. No defense learned, no offensive control - a recipe for injury. I hope you don't teach.

 

[Hot Lunch]

ISKF not allowing free sparring till black belt???? At their tournament last Nov. they had beginner and intermediate sparring divisions. I don't think it's full contact.

I'm sorry, I should have clarified: as a requirement for promotion. You're not required to do it until you're shodan. You're first tested for it at nidan.

Pinans are pretty simple to learn and execute, naihanchi is much tougher to execute properly, IMO. In either case, basic kihon should be trained prior to regular traditional kata to insure getting the most out of them and help prevent doing them with bad habits.

If by "kihon," you main basic punches, blocks, and kicks; sure. But making someone do a dozen taikyokus and fukyus (what I mean by "kihon katas") before giving them pinans is a waste of time, and possibly a money grab (more belt ranks = more testing fees).

Definitely a bad idea. No defense learned, no offensive control - a recipe for injury. I hope you don't teach.

I don't have to. And if I wanted to, I wouldn't be allowed to require it in ISKF.

But plenty of other dojos are already doing this. I can inbox you some, if you'd like to confront those instructors in person and tell them not to teach.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have a focus on it. I'm sure when doctors are going through medical school they're also quite focused on what degree they're getting. Do you criticize medical students because they're soooo focused on getting their degree, they should be learning medicine instead?

I have never, in 40+ years in the ER, met a med student, intern, resident, or fellow who was focused on a degree rather than actually learning how to treat people. Not to say they were all going to be good, but they all, without exception, WANT to be good.
None have ever asked "will this be on the test", and when they've had the opportunity to see something truly rare, that they will probably never seen again, they are excited, not "I don't need to know this".

 

[skribs]

I have never, in 40+ years in the ER, met a med student, intern, resident, or fellow who was focused on a degree rather than actually learning how to treat people. Not to say they were all going to be good, but they all, without exception, WANT to be good.
None have ever asked "will this be on the test", and when they've had the opportunity to see something truly rare, that they will probably never seen again, they are excited, not "I don't need to know this".

While true, have you ever met someone who wanted to be a doctor, currently had an associate's degree, and wasn't at all concerned with the requirements to get a bachelor's degree or master's degree along the way?

Or who wanted to be a doctor and wasn't at all concerned with things like staying up-to-date on licenses and credentials?

I'm not saying that's their singular focus. But if they for example take an art class because it's required to get their associate's degree, does that mean that they care more about their degree than the medicine?

 

[Dirty Dog]

It seems unwise to put a new white belt into free sparring, very irresponsible. Period.

Why? We do. Always have. I started sparring as a white belt 50+ years ago. No problems.

As far as getting into a traditional kata right away, this also seems unwise. How can you learn to write sentences without first learning the alphabet???

You have to learn Kicho 1 before you get a white belt in our system. And they do forms competition (within our own system) from Day 1. It's one step required to move up without your rank. The folks at the top end of the white belt line should expect to test for Yellow at the next opportunity.

Properly structured forms teach the alphabet. Kicho 1 teaches them Basic Ready Stance, Front Stance, Low Block, Middle Punch, Kiap, 90 & 180 degree turns.

 

[skribs]

But you aren't focusing on your belt in this discussion. You are talking about a yellow belt, sand bagging, and a lower belt beating a higher belt. What part of those do you need for your privileges?

Are you talking about this discussion or my history? Because earlier you were talking about my history. You don't get to bring it up when it's convenient for your point and then chastise me for following up. Quit arguing in bad faith.

 

[Hot Lunch]

None have ever asked "will this be on the test", and when they've had the opportunity to see something truly rare, that they will probably never seen again, they are excited, not "I don't need to know this".

At my current dojo, no one has ever said this. At my last dojo? Everybody was saying it. It was a heavily padded curriculum that, if the planets don't align correctly, might not all be covered before the next test. You had to hope and pray that what you needed was being covered on the days that you showed up and that you didn't miss it on the days you were home. And they didn't tell you ahead of time, because they didn't want people showing up only for the days they needed.

This isn't a problem at my current dojo. No padded curriculum, and all three K's are covered everyday.

 

[Dirty Dog]

While true, have you ever met someone who wanted to be a doctor, currently had an associate's degree, and wasn't at all concerned with the requirements to get a bachelor's degree or master's degree along the way?

If they seriously want to practice medicine, as opposed to just having a pipe dream, then no. They don't focus on the degrees. In part because they are NOT required. Score high enough on the MCATs and you can get in without a lower degree. I worked with a very good ER Dr who has no lower degree. He was one of the first Paramedics, took the MCATs and went to med school. I don't know how many Dr's I know who have undergrad degrees in things like English Lit or Art.

They may be aware of other degrees as steps that help them achieve their goal, but if they're focused on the degree, rather than the goal, they don't make it. And the goal is not a Medical Degree. It's learning to diagnose and treat people.

Or who wanted to be a doctor and wasn't at all concerned with things like staying up-to-date on licenses and credentials?

Not if they want to actually practice. Medical credentials require ongoing education. You either do it, or you lose your credentials.