Plum flower symbol

[jlq]

Jens,

I wrote that the plum flower pattern is not really a very important thing outside of HK Wing Chun lineages, then you posted this quote:

"It is my understanding that at one time the Ng Miu Fa Joang was considered an essential part of Wing Chun stepping development and perhaps explains the idea, shared by some, that the true secret to Wing Chun is found in the footwork. Something that is today not so much emphasized. More than one teacher has told me that the system is sometimes called "yongchun meihuquan" or "Wing Chun Plum Blossom Boxing""

As far as I.could ascertain this is a quote of something somebody said on some internet forum. The problem is that a lot of strange ideas proliferate on the internet, and far from all information one can dig up have any veracity. Even information in books is far from trustworthy...

A lot of information perpetuated on internet forums is questionable at best, so what some person on an internet has hear or believes doesn't mean much - especially not when the things claimed are inconsistent with what information can be gathered in Mainland China.

The style being known as "Mei Hua Yong Chun" (my apologolies for calling it "Mei Hua Tang Lang" ) maybe - but not in Fatsaan or Gongjaau, at least none of the Sifus I have visited or met at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties have met use this term or the plum flower as a logo.

No offense, but quoting some random person's opinions and what he supposedly heard "several sifus" say doesn't refute the fact I presented.



As to your questions:

First things first...



Where to put you - what is your Wing Chun lineage exactly?

Then, you said you see "the" baatgwa footwork in your knife set - please provide some more information as to what you think "baatgwa" footwork is. Since you are referring to Gwok Fu's footwork and said that you can see it, it means you know what it is. So then?

 

[jlq]

WRT the Seven Star footwork, I agree it is basically a series Saam Gok Bou. And yes, different schools use different terms to describe things - the point is... No need for a "Plum Flower Post" or concept to understand and practice Saam Gok Bou.

 

[wckf92]

thanks for the reply geezer!
Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?

hahahahahahaha
Leung Ting: "don't post this to the internet"...
Student...posts it on the internet.

 

[Jens]

Jens,

I wrote that the plum flower pattern is not really a very important thing outside of HK Wing Chun lineages, then you posted this quote:

"It is my understanding that at one time the Ng Miu Fa Joang was considered an essential part of Wing Chun stepping development and perhaps explains the idea, shared by some, that the true secret to Wing Chun is found in the footwork. Something that is today not so much emphasized. More than one teacher has told me that the system is sometimes called "yongchun meihuquan" or "Wing Chun Plum Blossom Boxing""

As far as I.could ascertain this is a quote of something somebody said on some internet forum. The problem is that a lot of strange ideas proliferate on the internet, and far from all information one can dig up have any veracity. Even information in books is far from trustworthy...

A lot of information perpetuated on internet forums is questionable at best, so what some person on an internet has hear or believes doesn't mean much - especially not when the things claimed are inconsistent with what information can be gathered in Mainland China.

The style being known as "Mei Hua Yong Chun" (my apologolies for calling it "Mei Hua Tang Lang" ) maybe - but not in Fatsaan or Gongjaau, at least none of the Sifus I have visited or met at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties have met use this term or the plum flower as a logo.

No offense, but quoting some random person's opinions and what he supposedly heard "several sifus" say doesn't refute the fact I presented.

No offense, but where are the facts that you say you presented, sounds like merely hearsay at best. visiting some Sifus at the local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties hold's no more weight over what I've presented. Do you really believe those sifus would shared their most advance concepts with an outsider who is not a closed door student.

Are you the sole authority on wing chun
Here is a quote from the book "Complete Wing Chun: The Definitive Guide to Wing Chun's History and Traditions"

"Fujian wing chun represents a group of similar styles said to decend from the Fujian Siu Lam Jee (Shaolinsi or Young Forest Temple). Legends hold that Jee Shim taught the martial arts in the Wing Chun Dien (Always Spring Hall) of the temple. Following Siu Lam's destruction, severl of his disciples were said to have spread his teachings including Fong Sai-Yuk and Hu Hui-Gan who brought the art to Guangdong. The basic curriculum includes mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams)

Then, you said you see "the" baatgwa footwork in your knife set - please provide some more information as to what you think "baatgwa" footwork is. Since you are referring to Gwok Fu's footwork and said that you can see it, it means you know what it is. So then?

As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.

Since you said you spoke to Gwok Fu's son, you should already know what the baat gwa footwork strategies are lol, why ask me?

Look at the end of the day, whatever works for your own understanding. For me and my linage the Mui fa baat gwa (plum blossom eight trigrams) is integral to understanding the various footwork and stepping patterns found within wing chun and how they correlate and interconnect in relation to the opponent's movement and positioning.

 

[jlq]

Jens,

none taken. I don't take myself too seriously and am not too sensitive.



Hearsay? Again, the fact is this:

In HK you see Wing Chun people use the Mui Fa as a logo all the time - so at some level it must be of some importance to at least some of them.

In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.

This has nothing to do with hearsay.

Fact is that none of the Wing Chun people here - I have talked to - seem to consider Mui Fa as a concept - and the Mui Fa Jong as some super special secret things. If they have something similar - Wong Nim Yi Sifu of the Mai Gei Wong school used to have what could be called a Mui Fa Jong at his Mouh Goon, but it was just a training tool to develop certain physical attributes - it doesn't seem to be sth that is greatly emphasized. Based on what I was told by the sifus directly, and what is evident from their curriculae and training.

Nothing to do with hearsay and x-hand information from internetforums, articles and books...

Now, asking senior people directly about their style is far better than relying on what one "hears" on the internet from unsubstantiated sources, at least as I see it. But maybe given the chance to ask say Leung Ting or some other master directly, you would prefer to rely on the words of what somebody heard someone say on the internet with no references and sources provided?

If one goes to ask certain people one can find out a lot of the veracity of some of things being touted as "common knowledge". Certain pieces of information become common knowledge because they are presented in books and then regurgitated uncritically by readers of said books and spread on the internet.

Case in point: In a recent thread you made some claims about what YCW had learned and something about Yip Man worrying that YKS would "steal" his dummy techniques. You were asked to provide sources as to where this information came from but you ignored that request, afair. To me it sounds like the source is Leung Ting's book, or from someone who read that book. So, in the West people believe this. However, if you go as close to the source as is possible today, you might find out that the reason YM asked his students not to play the dummy form when YKS was around was actually something much more ...mundane.



It is the same with a lot of other information strewn about on the internet...

Speaking about books.

You are quoting a passage from "Complete Wing Chun" to make a case for the "essentialness" to apply the Wing Chun style - as intended, I believe you said.

While a lot of good information is contained in this book and it is one of my favourite books on the subject it is far from authoritative - it is in essence nothing but a collection of hearsay and full of errors (in some cases even downright nonsense!) - as it later turned out when more information became available from Mainland China and SE Asia.

Leung Ting's book is far better, though. IMO of course..



Note that I emphasized that you mentioned something about this plum flower being essential in order to employ the style as it was intended.

Such a statemends more than insinuates that you (your lineage) know the original design. Considering the variety of Wing Chun out there and different approaches, I think no one can speak with authority on how Wing Chun was originally designed to work. It would be more reasonable to say "how my school/Sifu/Sigong thinks it is supposed to work".

So, do you know how Wing Chun was originally designed to work? I would very much like to see some proof to back up that claim, or at least how you rationalize this idea. Would make for an interesting discussion...



You then go on to quote an entry about a "style" (group of styles) which is about half a page long - meaning that it is some rather obscure version of the style about which not much information is available.
It goes on to talk about some legends and semi/mythical figures which supposedly founded the style - but legends and myth doesn't constitute reliable evidence. What about the curriculum, then?
It mentions a number of forms which don't even have a name equivalent in Wing Chun.

I mentioned before that Mui Fa is a common term in Chinese martial arts - and so is Baatgwa - so just because you can find this "mui fa baatgwa" in some style - which might in fact have nothing to do with Wing Chun other than the name - you conclude that it must be evidence that this stuff is essential for understanding of the art?

First of all, in this entry "Mui Fa Baat Gwa" is called a form - do you know what this form actually looks like?

And - considering that different people attach different meanings to the same terms - how do you know that when Wing Chun people talk about Mui Fa and Baat Gwa, it has any relevance whatsoever to the "Mui Fa Baat Gwa" form mentioned in the passage you quoted.

Same term or same name doesn't necessariy mean that there is some connection, a common mistake when looking for and making connections.

I am afraid your evidence is not very convincing...



And no, I am not a sole authority on things Wing Chun, not an authority even - nor is it an ambition of mine to become one. I am just a very curious person by nature and like to find out as much about as possible about Wing Chun as I can, when opportunities present themselves - just like you, I reckon. However, I do apply a lot of critical thinking...

Compared to many others who have to rely on information from books, videos, etc., living in China I found myself fortunate enough to have many such opportunities to ask senior people of various lineages present themselves to. I am just sharing here some of what these people told me. If you don't like it because it conflicts with whatever it is you believe to be fact, I have no issue with it. Whether you accept what I write here or not is of no consequence to me. You are free to take it or leave it...



While you are correct that traditional Chinese Sifu don't spill their innermost secrets and private opinions to casual visitors and share their "Bei Kup" with non-disciples, but with proper introduction and relations you would be surprised how open many people are...

But even if this Mui Fa Concept/Training were such a secret, why couldn't it still be mentioned? After all, it is mentioned many places - books, videos and internet forums.

And you are asking about it here!

Do you think such important secrets would be disclosed to random persons on an internet discussion forum?



And since you have this "inside" knowledge, it means you must be a bai si student of someone...

Who be that, if one may ask?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from.



To round off this rather longish post (sorry ), I am really wondering about the following:

Why so secretive about a simple piece of information such as what your lineage is exactly?

Why is it an issue for you to present your view on what the Baatgwa "steps" in Gwok Fu's Wing Chun is?

Why demand answers when not really willing to to provide some oneself?

 

[jlq]

And

wasn't it you who asked me what Gwok Fu's son had said about the Baatgwa in the first place?

If it is not clear, I am asking you what you think it is first, then we can see if it actually matches up...

To many people claim to know something after the fact has been presented.

 

[KPM]

You are quoting a passage from "Complete Wing Chun" to make a case for the "essentialness" to apply the Wing Chun style - as intended, I believe you said.

While a lot of good information is contained in this book and it is one of my favourite books on the subject it is far from authoritative - it is in essence nothing but a collection of hearsay and full of errors (in some cases even downright nonsense!) - as it later turned out when more information became available from Mainland China and SE Asia.

Just thought I would point out that in Robert Chu's book "Complete Wing Chun" they sent out invitations to various Wing Chun lineages to give an account of their history/legends. While some editing was done so that it reads well, the content is directly from those Sifus that responded. It just goes to show how lineage stories can be so inconsistent and often times just made up. When it comes to TCMA, "real history" is sticky subject!

 

[geezer]

While you are correct that traditional Chinese Sifu don't spill their innermost secrets and private opinions to casual visitors and share their "Bei Kup" with non-disciples, but with proper introduction and relations you would be surprised how open many people are...

jlq - help me out here. What's "bei kup" ...is that "kup" as in "cover"? Meaning covered/ hidden techniques? I'm taking a wild leap from "kup jarn" --covering elbow, etc. Except with Cantonese being tonal, "kup" could mean a lot of different things, right?

Oh, and while you are at it, do you (ore anyone else) have some advice on how to translate Cantonese terms? Since I do not read Chinese characters the usual translation methods leave me lost whether going from English to Chinese (Cantonese or Mandarin) or the other way around.

I did find one site that gives translation in the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) but, honestly, I'm really not up for having to learn that either since I've never seen it used in North America outside of linguistic studies. I haven't been involved in anything like that since I finished my degree in Anthropology back in 1978 ...which might as well be centuries ago the way the world is changing!

 

[Jens]

In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.

Nothing to do with hearsay and x-hand information from internetforums, articles and books...

Now, asking senior people directly about their style is far better than relying on what one "hears" on the internet from unsubstantiated sources, at least as I see it. But maybe given the chance to ask say Leung Ting or some other master directly, you would prefer to rely on the words of what somebody heard someone say on the internet with no references and sources provided?

Case in point: In a recent thread you made some claims about what YCW had learned and something about Yip Man worrying that YKS would "steal" his dummy techniques. You were asked to provide sources as to where this information came from but you ignored that request, afair. To me it sounds like the source is Leung Ting's book, or from someone who read that book. So, in the West people believe this. However, if you go as close to the source as is possible today, you might find out that the reason YM asked his students not to play the dummy form when YKS was around was actually something much more ...mundane.

Note that I emphasized that you mentioned something about this plum flower being essential in order to employ the style as it was intended.

Such a statemends more than insinuates that you (your lineage) know the original design. Considering the variety of Wing Chun out there and different approaches, I think no one can speak with authority on how Wing Chun was originally designed to work. It would be more reasonable to say "how my school/Sifu/Sigong thinks it is supposed to work".

So, do you know how Wing Chun was originally designed to work? I would very much like to see some proof to back up that claim, or at least how you rationalize this idea. Would make for an interesting discussion...

Compared to many others who have to rely on information from books, videos, etc., living in China I found myself fortunate enough to have many such opportunities to ask senior people of various lineages present themselves to. I am just sharing here some of what these people told me. If you don't like it because it conflicts with whatever it is you believe to be fact, I have no issue with it. Whether you accept what I write here or not is of no consequence to me. You are free to take it or leave it...[/QUOTE]

And you are asking about it here! Do you think such important secrets would be disclosed to random persons on an internet discussion forum?

I merely posed this question on here for the purposes of stimulating a discussion, after all this is a discussion board.

 

[geezer]

I never said all branches of wing chun use the term "plum flower posts stepping", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun stepping/footwork regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there in the steps themselves which anyone analyze. Across the board Pao fa Lien wing chun, Cho Ga wing chun, Yuen Kay Shan wing chun, Yuen Chai Wan wing chun, Fut sao wing chun, Kulo Pin Sun wing chun, and yes Yip Man wing chun all contain the plum flower posts steps and well as the baat gwa steps. So there must be something to it right

Sure, something...like that they are all variants of WC, but not necessarily that they all evolved from an original source that used a single version of the plum-flower posts.

 

[Jens]

In Mainland China it seems no one uses it at all - I have been travelling to China regularly since 2004 and living here for more than six years now and been to many dinner parties and visited many different schools. Never seen anyone use the Plum Flower logo, except if it was a school from HK.

Now, asking senior people directly about their style is far better than relying on what one "hears" on the internet from unsubstantiated sources, at least as I see it. But maybe given the chance to ask say Leung Ting or some other master directly, you would prefer to rely on the words of what somebody heard someone say on the internet with no references and sources provided?

It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.

Just to be clear I never said anything about all branches of wing chun using the term "plum flower posts stepping" or "the plum flower logo", what I did say is I can clearly see all the wing chun offensive stepping and footwork patterns regardless of wing chun linages within the plum flower posts stepping. My facts or evidence are right there in front of everyone's eyes to see and analyze for themslves in the steps themselves, if they know what to look for. Not based on hearsay or unsubstantiated internet sources. Across the board Pao fa Lien wing chun, Cho Ga wing chun, Yuen Kay Shan wing chun, Yuen Chai Wan wing chun, Fut sao wing chun, Kulo Pin Sun wing chun, and yes Yip Man wing chun all contain the plum flower posts steps and well as the baat gwa steps. So there must be something to it right! Besides casually visiting some local Wing Chun association annual dinner parties, I ask again where is your evidence or facts?

Case in point: In a recent thread you made some claims about what YCW had learned and something about Yip Man worrying that YKS would "steal" his dummy techniques. You were asked to provide sources as to where this information came from but you ignored that request, afair. To me it sounds like the source is Leung Ting's book, or from someone who read that book. So, in the West people believe this. However, if you go as close to the source as is possible today, you might find out that the reason YM asked his students not to play the dummy form when YKS was around was actually something much more ...mundane.

You know what they say about assumptions right, My source was sifu Lun Gai, who was sifu Gwok Fu's longtime friend and wing chun training brother under GM Yip Man in Foshan.

Such a statemends more than insinuates that you (your lineage) know the original design. Considering the variety of Wing Chun out there and different approaches, I think no one can speak with authority on how Wing Chun was originally designed to work. It would be more reasonable to say "how my school/Sifu/Sigong thinks it is supposed to work".

On the contrary, I was merely pointing out the commonality of the plum flower stepping amongst the various wing chun branches

 

[Jens]

I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun. It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.

You say you are learning Cho Ga wing chun right, are you an indoor student because here is a Cho Ga wing chun sifu talking about the Plum flower stepping (Mui Fa) that's also in line with my understanding at 14:22

 

[geezer]

You say you are learning Cho Ga wing chun right, are you an indoor student because here is a Cho Ga wing chun sifu talking about the Plum flower stepping (Mui Fa) that's also in line with my understanding at 14:22

Hey all, I always thought one punishment in Hell would be to be duck taped to a chair and be forced to watch Hendrick Santos videos (like this one) for eternity.... talk, talk, talk, ....never demonstrating anything and going on and on until it gets dark and he has to stop recording.

...but I've discovered the secret to bring his instruction alive and see the kung fu behind it. Start at about four minutes in and put your cursor on the red bar at the bottom of the screen, then scroll steadily forward (to the right) giving the same effect as playing the video at very high speed ...say about 5X or 10X normal. Suddenly his kung fu will become visible!

 

[KPM]

I do believe that the Plum Flower pattern is good way to bring out the inherent footwork in Wing Chun and develop it. So I think it is accurate to say that it encompasses a good percentage of footwork used in most Wing Chun systems. However, I don't think it is some "original" or "secret" technique that has become lost or neglected if a given Wing Chun lineage does not teach it. Its just a good way to practice. Hard to say who developed or organized it. I take JLQ at his word when he says that none of the current mainland Wing Chun systems use the idea or the symbol. As I have said, it isn't part of Pin Sun Wing Chun, nor it is part of the Tang Yik Weng Chun I have seen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, in Leung Ting's book on the wooden dummy (the little blue one), he goes into the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern.

I did chalk out the six point pattern under my dummy and it was sort helpful. But sometimes I think people work too hard at trying to fit their technique to complex, theoretical patterns. Sometimes it's a stretch and messes with functionality.

Personally, I think some people get too obsessed with abstract patterns over simple, practical footwork that works in relation to an opponent.

Now can anybody explain the relationship of the three-leaf shamrock pattern and the four-leaf pattern in Irish boxing ?

I think this does happen (the focus on technical pattern, not the focus on shamrocks) in a lot of places in TMA. I think exact patterns are meant to give a starting point. As we progress, they should be less useful, and sometimes problematic, to stick to with precision. Most are worth revisiting, as a baseline to compare our movement and adopted patterns; we can compare our version to the technical pattern and examine the differences and whether they are good adaptations or just bad habits. Unfortunately, some instructors see any variation from the original pattern as a bad habit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm wondering if the Plum Blossom pattern might be useful on a rather basic level simply by breaking out parts of it to practice footwork patterns.....much like the Langkha patterns in used in Silat.

I was going to use that example (without knowing the Silat term). I've often wished I had an equivalent pattern to work with, and suspect the Silat movement would transfer to NGA with only modest adjustment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For students who only train a few hours a week : no.

For students who train full time: yes.

There have been many practices I've come across over the years that I found useful, but wouldn't introduce to my students (all are in that "few hours a week" category). They added fine-tuning, but aren't worth spending part of those few hours on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BTW, have you ever seen "contact juggling"? Now that might really help your chi-sau.

My first exposure to this was Michael Moschen's work in Labyrinth. And he did most of that while hiding behind David Bowie.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... stilted.

That's such a "dad joke", Geezer.

 

[DanT]

There have been many practices I've come across over the years that I found useful, but wouldn't introduce to my students (all are in that "few hours a week" category). They added fine-tuning, but aren't worth spending part of those few hours on.

The good thing about Wing Chun is that there are (relatively) few drills and training methods. It usually is just a matter of perfecting the few methods and techniques we have. We have at most 20 arm mechanics and perhaps 8-15 leg mechanics to master. After that it's about being dynamic and being able to adapt the mechanics you know to any situation.