Plum flower symbol

[DanT]

You can pin and trap with "cross stance" too. It has both the side stance and square stance advantage. It doesn't have the square stance dis-advantage.

I'm sure you could, but it limits you to pining and trapping with your lead arm.

I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just not my Wing Chun way.

Any typical disadvantage of the square stance is irrelevant once you've already pinned or trapped the opponents arm and are on the outside gate.

Not sure what the video was demonstrating.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not sure what the video was demonstrating.

That clip shows how to solve the side stance 1 long arm and 1 short arm issue.

 

[ShortBridge]

I'm with DanT on this one. It's not an issue to be solved, it's how our system works. It's not the only way to fight, but it is how our system works.

Being square, doesn't mean the same thing as walking straight in on someone, it may just not be translating to text.

 

[Jens]

I'm really not sure how this would work, especially since different lineages have significantly different ideas as to how to apply stances and stepping. As for training footwork, there are also the forms ...especially the mook yang jong for angling and pressing forward, and also (in my lineage) a great deal of offensive (and defensive) footwork in chi-sau -- including advancing, retreating, turning, off-lining and angling against a moving partner.

Another, simpler but very "alive" footwork drill is an exercise we do is a game we call "stance sparring" in which you square off with an opponent, each with their arms chambered and out of the way. Then you step in and use only your stepping and stances to claim center and control your resisting opponent who is trying to do the same to you.

By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... stilted.

All the stances, turning, stepping, pressing forward, and angling footwork found in the dummy as well as the other forms in the wing chun system are just pieces of the complete footwork which is found in the plum flower posts training . Each of the forms have a specific theme, and therefore only focus on a small section of the complete footwork, in order to perfect the footwork movement section by section at a time. When you integrate all those smaller footwork sections, you end up with the complete picture of footwork found within wing chun only in the plum blossom posts training. It's how our system's footwork was intended to function according to what it was originally design to do.

 

[geezer]

All the stances, turning, stepping, pressing forward, and angling footwork found in the dummy as well as the other forms in the wing chun system are just pieces of the complete footwork which is found in the plum flower posts training . Each of the forms have a specific theme, and therefore only focus on a small section of the complete footwork, in order to perfect the footwork movement section by section at a time. When you integrate all those smaller footwork sections, you end up with the complete picture of footwork found within wing chun only in the plum blossom posts training. It's how our system's footwork was intended to function according to what it was originally design to do.

I'm not saying that the Plum Blossom Piles training you do might not be comprehensive, and pull together stances and steps from the other forms, since I don't know this form. It is not part of the training in my lineage. In fact the only real forms I've seen demonstrated on the Plum Blossom Piles are from other styles, and use footwork that is not compatible with the footwork of my branch.

So from my perspective, your claim that this Plum Flower Piles form is the original and complete footwork form for all Wing Chun seems to be a pretty bold assertion. What evidence do you have to support this claim?

 

[Jens]

I'm not saying that the Plum Blossom Piles training you do might not be comprehensive, and pull together stances and steps from the other forms, since I don't know this form. It is not part of the training in my lineage. In fact the only real forms I've seen demonstrated on the Plum Blossom Piles are from other styles, and use footwork that is not compatible with the footwork of my branch.

So from my perspective, your claim that this Plum Flower Piles form is the original and complete footwork form for all Wing Chun seems to be a pretty bold assertion. What evidence do you have to support this claim?

I never said the plum flower posts training is a fixed form, It's just a device which all linage of wing chun have to train free style stepping with correct positioning and facing angle. In the above sifu Fernandez videos that I posted, Leung Ting (your old sifu) is explaining it's concept, so it's definitely part of your line as well.

 

[geezer]

I never said the plum flower posts training is a fixed form, It's just a device which all linage of wing chun have to train free style stepping with correct positioning and facing angle. In the above sifu Fernandez videos that I posted, Leung Ting (your old sifu) is explaining it's concept, so it's definitely part of your line as well.

OK, I get your point. Yes, this much is part of our tradition. But it is not a part of the fundamental training. More like an adjunct I'd suppose. If I ever reach "master" level I'll let you know more. But, don't hold your breath, because at the rate I'm progressing, that's not likely to happen in this lifetime.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any typical disadvantage of the square stance is irrelevant once you've already pinned or trapped the opponents arm and are on the outside gate.

The PRO and CON of a stance depends on the distance.

When you are in the

- punching range, since both of your hands can have the same reach, of course the square stance will have advantage over the side stance.
- kicking range, since your hands can't reach to your opponent's body, the square stance that your arms have equal reach won't give you any advantage.

So in "kicking range" we have to compare which stance will have better defense against kick or sweep. IMO. the side stance has advantage over square stance for that purpose.

 

[jlq]

The "Mui Fa" pattern doesn't seem to be a pattern which is particularly emphasized by Wing Chun people in Mainland, for example why many use it in HK, no school in Gongjaau nor Fatsaan seem to use it as a logo...

As far as Plum Flower stepping and the PF posts and whether they as essential and integral to Wing Chun as Jens said is an interesting question.

Personally, I think not.

For various reasons...

First question is if YM actually taught this to his students - or if it was something gis students implemented. Here it would be very illuminating to consult his senior students (or rather senior grandstudents ) such as Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Shun Tien, Wong Shun Leung, etc. - i.e. early students of his.

As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques. The Mui Fa pattern and stepping as explained by Leung Ting doesn't fit the footwork and stepping strategy they employ.

Another thing - many years ago Leung Ting at a seminar, taught something he called "Lok Yip Bou" (falling leaf step) which basically says that on should place the feet wherever the situation requires and as such it is outside of the scope of the Mui Fa pattern he explains in the video you linked to (and his book).
So this pattern does not contain all stepping/footwork strategies of Wing Chun, at least according to Leung Ting's teachings.

Do other branches of Wing Chun have Plum Flower footwork? YKS/SN type Wing Chun - or at least the school/branch I trained in for 12 years didn't teach such footwork, or used a plum flower pattern to explain footwork strategy and techniques - doesn't. Yiu Choi branch? Would have to ask about this some time...

As far as the actual plum flower posts (Mui Fa Jong), it seems this is a sort of generic training "tool", more relating to acrobatics than fighting skill.

Anyhow, training on those posts doesn't allow for flexible, versatile stepping with the adjustments dictated by an actual fight, so training on those has no relevance to developing practical stepping/footwork for application.

In the final analysis, this pattern might be a convenient tool to illustrate certain aspects of a given system, but a fundamental, indispensable thing that encapsulates the style's footwork and allows it to be used "as it was meant to be" it is not, far from it, it seems.

Btw, Jens, which style of Wing Chun do you practice, where this pattern is of such importance?

 

[Jens]

The "Mui Fa" pattern doesn't seem to be a pattern which is particularly emphasized by Wing Chun people in Mainland.

"It is my understanding that at one time the Ng Miu Fa Joang was considered an essential part of Wing Chun stepping development and perhaps explains the idea, shared by some, that the true secret to Wing Chun is found in the footwork. Something that is today not so much emphasized. More than one teacher has told me that the system is sometimes called "yongchun meihuquan" or "Wing Chun Plum Blossom Boxing""

many years ago Leung Ting at a seminar, taught something he called "Lok Yip Bou" (falling leaf step) which basically says that on should place the feet wherever the situation requires and as such it is outside of the scope of the Mui Fa pattern he explains in the video you linked to (and his book).
So this pattern does not contain all stepping/footwork strategies of Wing Chun, at least according to Leung Ting's teachings.

Anyhow, training on those posts doesn't allow for flexible, versatile stepping with the adjustments dictated by an actual fight, so training on those has no relevance to developing practical stepping/footwork for application.

In the final analysis, this pattern might be a convenient tool to illustrate certain aspects of a given system, but a fundamental, indispensable thing that encapsulates the style's footwork and allows it to be used "as it was meant to be" it is not, far from it, it seems.

The mui fa jong is only a tool used to teach the wing chun fighter where he needs to step in relation to his opponent's position to gain a tactical advantage. It is only a concept in the wing chun fighter's mind and not in a fix position. It is a mental method which moves with the wing chun fighter relative to his opponent's positioning.

Btw, Jens, which style of Wing Chun do you practice, where this pattern is of such importance?

I practice Yip Man wing chun and the mui fa jong concept is clearly evident in my baat jaam do set as is the baat gwa steps.

jlq which style of Wing Chun do you practice?

 

[jlq]

YM Wing Chun is far from a homogenous group...



So where to place you?

As I pointed out to you, YM's early students in Fatsaan did not learn anything about Mui Fa Jong, nor do they use that pattern for anything. The question is, do YM's early, first generation students? If not, it cannot be that important, I would say...

I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.

As far as "Mei Hua Tang Lang" and the style being known under that name - it is possible - who exactly said that? - but in six years of living here and interacting with many practicioners and masters of various styles, I have never heard this here in Gongjaau and Fatsaan. Now, I am not saying that no one here uses this term - I know that some Sifus do, and not only relating to footwork - but the fact that many don't (like YKS/SN lineage) clearly demonstrates that it can hardly be considered of such importance as you stated.

It is true that the footwork was considered the highest secret and that many Sifus kept this to themselves, but this doesn't mean that across the board in Wing Chun there is something called "Plum Flower Steps" and even if the same term is used, it doesn't mean that it refers to the same stepping concepts.

You seem to presume that there is THE Mui Fa Concept, but looking across schools and lineages this seems somewhat dubious, to say the least.

Read again what I wrote wrt YM's Fatsaan students vs. say Leung Ting's Plum Flower footwork idea.

In fact, "Mui Fa" this or that is one of those common terms in Chinese martial arts used with different connotations by different people. There is a "Mui Fa Kuen" style, "Mui Fa Tong Long", and a multitude of various forms across styles bearing this name...

As far as the stuff taught by Leung Ting, this is not particularly secret: He explained this openly to us, (the participants) at a seminar where he taught the dummy foem in his school in Seundak, China, back in 2004 - not to mention that it is shown and explained (albeit not clearly) in the book geezer mentioned. Nor is it nothing particularly profound, so why make it that?



You say you can see the "Mui Fa Concepts" and "the" Baatgwa steps. I am not sure what you mean by baatgwa steps, but since you used "the" it seems like you think of them as some standard technique. Would you mind clarifying the term for better understanding? I am pretty sure it is not what YM's Fatsaan students understand by that term - but I have been wrong about things many a time before.



Since Leung Ting came up, he uses the term "Chat Sing Bou" (seven star stepping) with his knife set, not sure if any of the early students of YM do that, but it is another example of a term used in many CMA to represent different things.

 

[Danny T]

"...one should place the feet wherever the situation requires....

This is ^^^^^
Most important.

Practice footwork in numerous methods use what is needed when it is needed.

 

[DanT]

The PRO and CON of a stance depends on the distance.

When you are in the

- punching range, since both of your hands can have the same reach, of course the square stance will have advantage over the side stance.
- kicking range, since your hands can't reach to your opponent's body, the square stance that your arms have equal reach won't give you any advantage.

So in "kicking range" we have to compare which stance will have better defense against kick or sweep. IMO. the side stance has advantage over square stance for that purpose.

Which is why in my Wing Chun we are given the option of not standing completely square when in kicking range. Our goal is to pin and trap the lead arm, keep our balance, and fight on the outside gate. Doing these things reduces our chances of trading blows, and reduces the opportunity our opponent has to use his superior strength and speed against us.

 

[geezer]

jlq, I see you've been a member of this forum since 2014, but have only posted two messages to date ...the two on this thread. Time permitting, I would certainly hope that you can continue posting here from time to time, as you are obviously well informed and express yourself well in writing. And, you seem to be the only Cho Ga WC practitioner here. I appreciate your sharing with us.

BTW your comments about the WT branch "falling leaf step" were spot on. You obviously have more than a casual acquaintance with Leung Ting's WT.

 

[jlq]

Thank you for the kind words, geezer

I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...

I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.



I was quite invested in WT once upon a time.

Alas politics soured it for me...

 

[ShortBridge]

Thank you for the kind words, geezer

I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...

I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.



I was quite invested in WT once upon a time.

Alas politics soured it for me...

It's good to have you here and look forward to your future input. I've had a small bit of exposure to Cho Ga. Not enough to speak on the subject with any credibility, but enough to have broadened my perspective a bit. Will watch for future mentions.

 

[KPM]

Thank you for the kind words, geezer

I would have liked to post some things earlier, but it is not easy because I need a VPN to access the forum from China - and we have to change providers quite often because of government crackdowns...

I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.



I was quite invested in WT once upon a time.

Alas politics soured it for me...

jlq.....you have input for the "who taught Ip Man" thread?

 

[geezer]

...I will chime in whenever there a subject of interest being discussed and of course and VPN permitting.

I was quite invested in WT once upon a time. Alas politics soured it for me...

Boy, do I hear ya on that! Anyway, good to have you on-board!

 

[Jens]

I have a background in various lineages of Wing Chun, but I gave that up to learn Cho Ga Wing Chun.

Did you learn Cho Ga Wing Chun through the Cho family in penang malaysia or in Punyu China?
is this close to what you practice in your Cho Ga wing chun linage?

I am not sure what you mean by baatgwa steps, but since you used "the" it seems like you think of them as some standard technique. Would you mind clarifying the term for better understanding? I am pretty sure it is not what YM's Fatsaan students understand by that term - but I have been wrong about things many a time before.

I meant the baat gwa applied to stepping that Gwok Fu's son told you about below.

As far as I understood it from asking Gwok Fu's son about it, there is no Mui Fa pattern used in the Wing Chun YM taught him in the early 1940s. The talk about the Baat Gwa as extremely important important and is used to explain many of the system's strategies and techniques.

What did Gwok Fu's son say specifically regarding the Baat Gwa and it's importance to the system's footwork/stepping strategies ?

Since Leung Ting came up, he uses the term "Chat Sing Bou" (seven star stepping) with his knife set, not sure if any of the early students of YM do that, but it is another example of a term used in many CMA to represent different things.

This is seven star stepping, notice how the connecting dots in the photo below looks strikingly similar to the triangle stepping patterns on the plum blossom posts.

seven star stepping is just another way of explaining the sam gok ma (triangle stepping) that's done on the mui fa jong. different branches of wing chun may use different terminology to describe the same thing, no big deal. At the end of the day it's the concept they are trying to convey that important.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

fight on the outside gate.

Agree! It's always good to let your opponent's leading arm to "jam" his own back arm.