Plum flower symbol

[geezer]

...What's the relationship of the common six post and the "five dot" pattern?

OK, now that I'm home I was able to dig out the little book 116 Wooden Dummy Techniques by Leung Ting and found the reference to the 6-dot plum flower pattern and the 5-dot pattern.

I must preface what follows by saying that didn't pay too much attention to this before, since the book was published in 2010 and I studied with Leung Ting much earlier, from 1980 through the early 90s, and we never discussed this in person. And, as I mentioned previously, I don't find either pattern that relevant to what I train these days.

And lastly, should I want to refer to a book on the subject, I prefer the 116 movement dummy presentation in Leung Ting's earlier gold colored book featuring Yip Chun as the supposed author. Besides, both books deliberately omit or alter several movements from the privately taught version of the form, basically as a "tell" to distinguish "real" students from those who learned from books, posters, and videos.

At any rate, on pages 28-31 of his introductory chapter, History and Concept, LT closes with a section titled, Misunderstanding Mui-fa and Mui-fa Chong Bo. In this passage, he first distinguishes between the six-point pattern based on the plum flower symbol and the five-dot pattern often used for the upright posts.

He then goes into a discussion of the confusions arising due to the use of different Chinese characters with the same pronunciation describing these two patterns. As far as the stepping goes, he concludes by superimposing the two patterns to show how the combined pattern relates to stepping. Of note, three of the dots (the center and bottom two) in the five-dot pattern align with the lower portion of the plum-flower pattern so the stepping patterns, on the mook yang chong at least, are unaffected. The top two dots in the five dot pattern do not apply to the mook yang chong (at least the Yip Man wall-mounted chong) since they would lie behind the chong where you cannot step. LT's discussion here does not address the stepping-patterns on top of the upright posts, except to discount the fantasy that people would use WC/WT to actually fight on top of posts.

Personally, I found the written explanation in translation to be confusing at best, and furthermore, knowing how my old sifu would leave out bits and pieces of information from his books, I would certainly not alter my training on the basis of this ...at least unless I were able to discuss it with him in person -- something no longer possible for me to do.

On the other hand, you are welcome to check out the passage for yourself if you wish, as I believe the book is still in print. Personally, I wouldn't bother. Anyway, I hope this helps.

 

[geezer]

Fighting on posts is not realistic... but balance training doing chi sau might be fun. These guys seem to be enjoying themselves:

Actually I prefer this:

We've done some stuff like chi-sau while standing on 2 x 4s laid sideways on the ground, etc. Challenges balance, but not great for stepping, angling and so forth. Still, variety livens up training, right?

 

[DanT]

That would indeed be extremely difficult, so difficult in fact, that only very physically gifted students could master the skill ...and even then only after investing a lot of hours of practice.

Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?

For students who only train a few hours a week : no.

For students who train full time: yes.

 

[DanT]

Fighting on posts is not realistic... but balance training doing chi sau might be fun. These guys seem to be enjoying themselves:

Actually I prefer this:

We've done some stuff like, just chi-sau while standing on 2 x 4s laid sideways on the ground, etc. Challenges balance, but not great for stepping, angling and so forth. Still, variety livens up training, right?

I like Chi Saoing with my back to a wall, especially while blindfolded. We also do Chi Sao on a 4 x 4 wooden table.

 

[ShortBridge]

For students who only train a few hours a week : no.

For students who train full time: yes.

When my son was younger he went through a phase where he watched lion dance world championships on YouTube every day. What they are able to do on tall, unstable poles seems impossible, but they can certainly do it.

I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?

 

[DanT]

Wing

When my son was younger he went through a phase where he watched lion dance world championships on YouTube every day. What they are able to do on tall, unstable poles seems impossible, but they can certainly do it.

I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?

I agree, but at the same time for a lot of students there's only x number of hours a week for them to practice, and thus more important things for them to work on.

 

[ShortBridge]

Wing

I agree, but at the same time for a lot of students there's only x number of hours a week for them to practice, and thus more important things for them to work on.

Of course. We all have to prioritize what we work on and I don't know anyone dedicated who doesn't feel like they aren't getting to something on their list as quickly as they would like.

 

[geezer]

I can't imagine how this type of training COULDN'T help you. That doesn't make it necessary or original to whatever your style is or secret/advanced/other. But, how could it not make you better at balance, rooting, and body control?

I made the comment Dan was responding to (as quoted in your post above) regarding training steps on 6-foot tall, 2 inch wide, flexible bamboo poles.

If you are training to be a circus acrobat, I can see investing the time and taking the considerable physical risk to do that. If you are training to be a fighter, or perhaps just an ordinary guy training for love of the art and for self defense, your time would be much better spent using other methods. Maybe like what Alan Orr was demonstrating in the clip above.

 

[Jens]

on pages 28-31 of his introductory chapter, History and Concept, LT closes with a section titled, Misunderstanding Mui-fa and Mui-fa Chong Bo. In this passage, he first distinguishes between the six-point pattern based on the plum flower symbol and the five-dot pattern often used for the upright posts.

He then goes into a discussion of the confusions arising due to the use of different Chinese characters with the same pronunciation describing these two patterns. As far as the stepping goes, he concludes by superimposing the two patterns to show how the combined pattern relates to stepping. Of note, three of the dots (the center and bottom two) in the five-dot pattern align with the lower portion of the plum-flower pattern so the stepping patterns, on the mook yang chong at least, are unaffected. The top two dots in the five dot pattern do not apply to the mook yang chong (at least the Yip Man wall-mounted chong) since they would lie behind the chong where you cannot step. LT's discussion here does not address the stepping-patterns on top of the upright posts, except to discount the fantasy that people would use WC/WT to actually fight on top of posts.

thanks for the reply geezer!
Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?

 

[DanT]

Of course. We all have to prioritize what we work on and I don't know anyone dedicated who doesn't feel like they aren't getting to something on their list as quickly as they would like.

Exactly. Patience and communication are key however.

 

[DanT]

I made the comment Dan was responding to (as quoted in your post above) regarding training steps on 6-foot tall, 2 inch wide, flexible bamboo poles.

If you are training to be a circus acrobat, I can see investing the time and taking the considerable physical risk to do that. If you are training to be a fighter, or perhaps just an ordinary guy training for love of the art and for self defense, your time would be much better spent using other methods. Maybe like what Alan Orr was demonstrating in the clip above.

You're right, and that's why I'll only teach it to high level full time students who are interested.

 

[geezer]

thanks for the reply geezer!
Would you say these two videos of your old sifu covers everything written in his book and then some?

Yes that's the same material. I'd forgotten that Fernandez had posted a video of it.

 

[geezer]

You're right, and that's why I'll only teach it to high level full time students who are interested.

That wouldn't be me.

My ankles, knees, and back are already suffering from old injuries. A couple of years ago, I actually started riding a unicycle again (like I did back as a teenager) just to keep up my balance and core, but I had to set it aside because I found the risk of re-injuring myself greater than the benefits. So there goes my second career as a circus clown.

Guess I could take up juggling though.

BTW, have you ever seen "contact juggling"? Now that might really help your chi-sau.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you really believe that such an investment in time (at the expense of other training) would pay off in practical fighting skill?

The "plum flower posts" is too abstract and trying to develop too many things. I like to develop 1 footwork at a time.

When I train a particular footwork, I will mark my

- opponent's feet position as (A, B).
- current feet position as (X, Y).
- next feet position as (X', Y').

I will then move my feet from

1. X -> X',
2. Y -> Y',
3. X' -> X,
4. Y' -> Y.

Repeat 1 - 4. The reason that I also want to train how to move back to the original feet position is in case I feel dangerous and need to recover.

 

[Jens]

The plum flower posts training unlocks the offensive stepping strategy of all wing chun, but of course one can always de-construct one footwork at a time to perfect the mechanics, but in actual fighting it must be used dynamicly and alive with fluidity by transitioning from one position into another seamlessly

 

[geezer]

The plum flower posts training unlocks the offensive stepping strategy of all wing chun...

I'm really not sure how this would work, especially since different lineages have significantly different ideas as to how to apply stances and stepping. As for training footwork, there are also the forms ...especially the mook yang jong for angling and pressing forward, and also (in my lineage) a great deal of offensive (and defensive) footwork in chi-sau -- including advancing, retreating, turning, off-lining and angling against a moving partner.

Another, simpler but very "alive" footwork drill is an exercise we do is a game we call "stance sparring" in which you square off with an opponent, each with their arms chambered and out of the way. Then you step in and use only your stepping and stances to claim center and control your resisting opponent who is trying to do the same to you.

By comparison, working on the plum-flower piles, for all its difficulty, strikes me as being a bit ...er ... stilted.

 

[DanT]

In my opinion, the stepping taught in Wing Chun (Arrow Step, turning stance, huen bo, bik bo, etc) are more beginner exercises teaching you how to control your centre and balance. Once you master these basic methods of stepping, you can step however you want because you've learned to control your centre. Actually in my Wing Chun, we only have 4 simple rules for stepping and footwork:

-Keep the weight 50-50
-Keep the heels down
-Don't cross your legs
-Stay square or close to square

Beginner students follow a more rigid footwork structure because they're still learning to control their centre. Advanced students footwork is free and dynamic. Although you still might see the shapes of beginner footwork, there is a lot more freedom in movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

-Stay square or close to square.

Do you think that all WC guys should fight "square"? IMO, the disadvantage can be more than the advantage.

 

[DanT]

Do you think that all WC guys should fight "square"? IMO, the disadvantage can be more than the advantage.

It's not a matter of should or not. For some Wing Chun lineages they fight side on, but that's because they have a different strategy.

For my Wing Chun, being fairly square presents the advantage of being able to pin and trap easier. It's hard to pin and trap when turned to the side.

We certainly do turn to the side to avoid and absorb strikes, as well as to augment power.

Standing square in front of your opponent has its issues, however since we aim for controlling the outside gate, those issues become irrelevant once controlling the outside gate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

being fairly square presents the advantage of being able to pin and trap easier. It's hard to pin and trap when turned to the side.

You can pin and trap with "cross stance" too. It has both the side stance and square stance advantage. It doesn't have the square stance dis-advantage.