Phyc theory on fighting VS self defence

[Flying Crane]

Well the OP may have gotten lucky, or simply not adequately described exist and on going quantitative research by people like this...
Dr. Christopher Liang | Lehigh Education

But the data is there and it's compelling enough that people like Dr. Liang are doing research in how to break the cycle that exists in these communities. /Shrug. My girlfriend as part of her Master's program was actually "let off the leash" so to speak to run a program that is part of his study in a largely minority middle School in an poor/underperforming school district.

Note I am not saying we identify those kids as criminal, but the circumstances they live in put them at MUCH higher risk. My point is to say to simply give them the benefit of the doubt and hope for the best is not an option. We need to acknowledge the higher risk and engage in preemptive interventions. Figuring out best practices via quantitative research is a large part of Dr. Liang's study.

And as long as that is the population identified, then study and analysis can be appropriate.

 

[Juany118]

This thread, while well intentioned, is useless in it's current form. As has been mentioned, 'criminality' is an arbitrary thing, as what constitutes a crime varies from place to place. If you follow every rule laid out in any given place simply because someone decided one day it shouldn't be allowed, rather than because you believe it is wrong, you have already been 'dominated', regardless of any other standard.

IE some crimes tie in, others do not.

As per the nature of interpersonal violence and dominance, I think much of the official line is also arbitrary. Psychology isn't real science, it's mostly backroom politics. The backbone of what constitutes flaws in human psychology, ie the DSM, isn't decided by science but rather by quorum.

Simply because the DSM is controversial in some circles does not eliminate the fact that quantitative studies both in a social justice framework and without show that institutional racism and socioeconomic status have an impact on what a Layman would call antisocial Behavior AKA criminality. I say Layman simply because in the field of psychology antisocial Behavior has a very precise meaning.

Psychology is actually a science. If you are a PhD in Psychology and you are doing a study it needs to be quantitative. They hate qualitative studies specifically because of what you just said, the claim that psychology is not a science.

The problem is is that very often these quantitative studies are dismissed because their results are very inconvenient to certain ideological frameworks. As an example on the Right there is still a lot of denial of institutional racism even though we can look at the news and see Banks paying out multimillion-dollar sometimes close to billion dollar settlement for racist lending practices. We have study after study that shows that people of color who are arrested for the same offenses as a white person, with an identical criminal history as said white person, end up being incarcerated at far higher rates. The same goes for discipline inside schools.

All of these things contribute to the psychological make-up of people. These things affect them but when they're put into a psychology study its dismissed as backroom politics because some people don't want to acknowledge these facts that are proven by

 

[Juany118]

And as long as that is the population identified, then study and analysis can be appropriate.

So it does. One of the things that kind of drives my girlfriend a little nuts is that she was first an ethnographer working in East Africa for an NGO (first MA is anthropology). That is usually qualitative in nature. Having to transition from that kind of research to the quantitative nature that is required in the psychology field was an interesting transition for her. She loves the research a lot but whenever she proposes bringing in the ethnographer's method it gets poo-pooed because qualitative research is seen as more subjective even when you have an appropriately large data set.

 

[Martial D]

Simply because the DSM is controversial in some circles does not eliminate the fact that quantitative studies both in a social justice framework and without show that institutional racism and socioeconomic status have an impact on what a Layman would call antisocial Behavior AKA criminality. I say Layman simply because in the field of psychology antisocial Behavior has a very precise meaning.

Psychology is actually a science. If you are a PhD in Psychology and you are doing a study it needs to be quantitative. They hate qualitative studies specifically because of what you just said, the claim that psychology is not a science.

The problem is is that very often these quantitative studies are dismissed because their results are very inconvenient to certain ideological frameworks. As an example on the Right there is still a lot of denial of institutional racism even though we can look at the news and see Banks paying out multimillion-dollar sometimes close to billion dollar settlement for racist lending practices. We have study after study that shows that people of color who are arrested for the same offenses as a white person, with an identical criminal history as said white person, end up being incarcerated at far higher rates. The same goes for discipline inside schools.

All of these things contribute to the psychological make-up of people. These things affect them but when they're put into a psychology study its dismissed as backroom politics because some people don't want to acknowledge these facts that are proven by

Well, institutional racism is a whole other subject. Personally Ive yet to see any good data in support of it's existence. Might want to save that one for it's own thread.

 

[Juany118]

Well, institutional racism is a whole other subject. Personally Ive yet to see any good data in support of it's existence. Might want to save that one for it's own thread.

I can send you some pretty solid studies PM side if you want related to incarceration rates, school discipline, lending practices, it goes across most societal lines (at least in the US, in other countries your mileage may vary). PM only because I think that whole you are most often reasonable, not everyone is and being a topic in and of itself would create more arguments than discussion I fear..

 

[Flying Crane]

So it does. One of the things that kind of drives my girlfriend a little nuts is that she was first an ethnographer working in East Africa for an NGO (first MA is anthropology). That is usually qualitative in nature. Having to transition from that kind of research to the quantitative nature that is required in the psychology field was an interesting transition for her. She loves the research a lot but whenever she proposes bringing in the ethnographer's method it gets poo-pooed because qualitative research is seen as more subjective even when you have an appropriately large data set.

That is interesting. I am surprised by it because anthropology and psychology are closely related as social sciences, I would have thought there could be some amount of overlap in research methods. Granted, not the same, but room for some overlap. It seems to me there ought to be complimentary methods there in terms of gathering data and then analyzing it.

 

[Martial D]

I can send you some pretty solid studies PM side if you want related to incarceration rates, school discipline, lending practices, it goes across most societal lines (at least in the US, in other countries your mileage may vary). PM only because I think that whole you are most often reasonable, not everyone is and being a topic in and of itself would create more arguments than discussion I fear..

I try to be reasonable, I don't always succeed but I try.

I am aware of the discrepancies in incarceration and lending, I would imagine discipline follows a similar pattern, I just don't think racism is a factor. I can already see the direction your politics lean in, so I'm not sure a 1 on 1 would really be worthwhile for either of us lol. Best to just let this one drop.

Politics and religion are pretty much gasoline, with discussion generally acting as a match!

 

[Juany118]

That is interesting. I am surprised by it because anthropology and psychology are closely related as social sciences, I would have thought there could be some amount of overlap in research methods. Granted, not the same, but room for some overlap. It seems to me there ought to be complimentary methods there in terms of gathering data and then analyzing it.

I was surprised by it as well for the same reasons. And it's not to say that there aren't qualitative studies in the field of psychology it's just that such studies don't get published as much because of the nature of peer review in the field.. And when you are a PhD on the tenure track it is published or die.

To an extent it almost sounds elitist to me. As an example my girlfriend has an MA in anthropology and experience is an ethnographer and she now has a couple Publications under her belt underneath one of her professors as a masters in Counseling psychology. But even with all that experience and training she would not be able to get an article published in a peer-reviewed journal without that phds name over her name. So if she decides to delay her entry into a PhD program she will actually have to net work with other phds to keep publishing so that her CV keeps getting patted while she's working as a professional. The Byzantine rules of the Ivory Tower I suppose.

 

[Juany118]

I try to be reasonable, I don't always succeed but I try.

I am aware of the discrepancies in incarceration and lending, I would imagine discipline follows a similar pattern, I just don't think racism is a factor. I can already see the direction your politics lean in, so I'm not sure a 1 on 1 would really be worthwhile for either of us lol. Best to just let this one drop.

Politics and religion are pretty much gasoline, with discussion generally acting as a match!

Well I don't see statitcally based quantitative studies as "politics" tbh. They are facts. I have always been a believer in "the facts should inform my Ideology, my Ideology should not inform my interpretation of facts."

This method is how I went, slowly but surely, from a very Conservative (former VP of College Republicans back in the day) to an admittedly more moderate position (because I do believe that there are times where race and poverty get confabulated.)

 

[Juany118]

I can send you some pretty solid studies PM side if you want related to incarceration rates, school discipline, lending practices, it goes across most societal lines (at least in the US, in other countries your mileage may vary). PM only because I think that whole you are most often reasonable, not everyone is and being a topic in and of itself would create more arguments than discussion I fear..

Ahh now I see why you disagree. /Shrug

 

[hoshin1600]

thanks for some good discussion. a lot to take in and ponder. i will have to make a multitude of responses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This thread, while well intentioned, is useless in it's current form. As has been mentioned, 'criminality' is an arbitrary thing, as what constitutes a crime varies from place to place. If you follow every rule laid out in any given place simply because someone decided one day it shouldn't be allowed, rather than because you believe it is wrong, you have already been 'dominated', regardless of any other standard.

IE some crimes tie in, others do not.

As per the nature of interpersonal violence and dominance, I think much of the official line is also arbitrary. Psychology isn't real science, it's mostly backroom politics. The backbone of what constitutes flaws in human psychology, ie the DSM, isn't decided by science but rather by quorum.

The DSM is one tool in Psychology. The study, itself, is actually science.

 

[hoshin1600]

I agree with this. The term violence is almost always used in a negative context which is not accurate of what violence really is. It is almost always seen as something bad which is also not correct about the reality of violence.

It will probably be better to use the word aggression and then categorized levels of aggression when speaking of dominance. Posturing can be a product of dominance but it's doesn't have to be violent or even noticeable. A simple gaze (like a mother's gaze) would be an example.

i think i disagree with this statement. so lets first define violence.
as per BLACKS LAW DICTIONARY:
violence, Unjust or unwarranted use of force, usually accompanied by fury, vehemence, or outrage; physical force unlawfully exercised with the intent to harm.

it is possible you have a valid idea but your definition would not match. you may elaborate on how not all violence is negative.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is interesting. I am surprised by it because anthropology and psychology are closely related as social sciences, I would have thought there could be some amount of overlap in research methods. Granted, not the same, but room for some overlap. It seems to me there ought to be complimentary methods there in terms of gathering data and then analyzing it.

I'm not familiar with a lot of the current struggles in Psychology, but I do know there has long been a struggle to move from psycho-philosophy (early models were nearly all based on philosophical approaches to thought) to a more scientific approach. Given that, I'm not surprised that Psychology, as a whole, is a bit shy of anything that's not strictly quantifiable. If money and resources were infinite, I think we'd see more qualitative study used to determine where to point the qualitative studies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I try to be reasonable, I don't always succeed but I try.

I am aware of the discrepancies in incarceration and lending, I would imagine discipline follows a similar pattern, I just don't think racism is a factor. I can already see the direction your politics lean in, so I'm not sure a 1 on 1 would really be worthwhile for either of us lol. Best to just let this one drop.

Politics and religion are pretty much gasoline, with discussion generally acting as a match!

I have my doubts about the blanket causation, but there's some solid evidence of widespread subconscious racism (at least in the US) that crosses racial bounds - meaning the same views (which can be seen as racist) are held to some extent by all, including the race being discriminated against. There are even some reasonable psychological models that explain why this might be happening. If you have an interest in digging in it, let me know.

 

[Juany118]

I'm not familiar with a lot of the current struggles in Psychology, but I do know there has long been a struggle to move from psycho-philosophy (early models were nearly all based on philosophical approaches to thought) to a more scientific approach. Given that, I'm not surprised that Psychology, as a whole, is a bit shy of anything that's not strictly quantifiable. If money and resources were infinite, I think we'd see more qualitative study used to determine where to point the qualitative studies.

I just read this to my girlfriend and she said "who wrote that, it was very insightful.". Lol

 

[Martial D]

The DSM is one tool in Psychology. The study, itself, is actually science.

I guess that depends how far you are willing to stretch the word science.

 

[Martial D]

I have my doubts about the blanket causation, but there's some solid evidence of widespread subconscious racism (at least in the US) that crosses racial bounds - meaning the same views (which can be seen as racist) are held to some extent by all, including the race being discriminated against. There are even some reasonable psychological models that explain why this might be happening. If you have an interest in digging in it, let me know.

One of the problems with this is the nebulous definition of 'racism', which seems to be expanding year by year at about the same rate as the universe.

 

[hoshin1600]

I'm not sure if this is possible. An action is only criminal if it's against the rules of society. In some societies it's legal and considered a right for a man to beat his wife if he see's fit. So while it's not a crime in that society, the behavior or the mentality of the action may still be the same in a society where it's a crime.

so this statement seems to be something everyone may agree with. but the original OP post however was purposely not about "crime". it is about a dominance hierarchy which is a psychology theory about the evolution and perpetuation of the human species. when viewed in this framework , and when using my proposed Primal Hierarchy your concept takes on a whole different meaning. there is no concept of crime there are only actions that either forward the species or harm it. this particular conversation is about the human species so we are not dividing groups into different cultural groups.
your statement "an action is only criminal if its against the rules of society" while there is some validity to this is concept, it is out of context. i would restate it as, an action may be deemed harmful to the social group, when it detracts from the success of the group. this statement in and of itself can be applied very broadly and the purpose of my posting is to gain understanding of violence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess that depends how far you are willing to stretch the word science.

Not really. They create a hypothesis. They use rigorous, randomized, double-blind studies to test the hypothesis. The theories and models to explain the outcomes are a bit wobbly, but that's to be expected with a field where direct manipulation isn't possible within the key population (humans).