Philosophies of Chinese and Japanese MA

[AlwaysTraining]

What are the philosophical differences between Chinese and Japanese MA? Through studying martial arts (mostly shotokan), I've learned that the philosophies of Japanese MA were strongly based on the preservation of honor (death before dishonor, even), integrity, etc. While I don't know much about philosophies of Chinese MA, I don't recall ever learning of anything within Chinese philosophical concepts that bore similarity to Japanese. Anyone here have any thoughts or knowledge on the subject?

 

[Xue Sheng]

That is a good question and I'll attempt a general answer. And please anyone feel free to tell me I'm wrong at anytime.

I think if you look at different Japanese martial arts such as comparing shotokan to Aikido you will find both similarities and differences in the philosophies. I do not know about shotokan, but Aikido does not want to intentionally hurt others, or at least that is my understanding.

As for Chinese martial arts, it depends on the art you are talking about. Tai Chi philosophies come from Taoism and Shaolin is based in Buddhism. Xingyi, or at least I have been told, was made for war and based in attack. Where other Chinese martial arts are mainly defense. All of them have similarities and differences

However the philosophies are not always obvious or taught directly either.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

So, you don't think there's a blanket mentality that covers Japanese styles and one that covers Chinese? It's a matter of the specific style itself? If so, then, is there a single element of concept that one would find in to be in common with all Japanese styles, and one to be in common with all Chinese? I would say perhaps for the Japanese styles, but maybe not for the Chinese. I would figure Chinese concepts to be to diversified to have such a blanket concept.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am certain that there are others on this site that are more qualified than I to answer this question but if there is a blanket philosophy in Japanese martial arts I would think it would be Bushido. The Chinese do not have a philosophy of Bushido per say. They do have honor and integrity, and much of the culture is based on Confucius and Confucian thought is also in Japan, if that helps.

All martial arts appear to, at least originally, design for fighting whether offensive or defensive in both China and Japan.

I suppose they share a respect for ancestry, the teacher’s teacher, if you will.

As for Chinese martial arts they are very diversified North/South, Hard/Soft but as discussed in another post there has been significant mixing.

I have known and talked to a few Chinese martial artists and philosophy was not discussed much if at all. And if it was brought up it was more implied than directly addressed. My Tai Chi teacher stresses that Tai Chi is defensive, and he has mentioned that it is Taoist in nature, but he has taught both Taoist breathing and Buddhist breathing in association with Tai Chi Qi Gong. A sanda teacher I know will not teach sanda to just anyone, he must trust their character first because he does not want to train someone who will use what he trains them against others (no bullies), so there is honor ad integrity there.

Once again in reference to another post, Chinese martial arts classes tend to be less regimented than Japanese classes. At least in this country. I once had a Chinese Sifu tell me that when he came here to teach Kung fu he had to change his teaching style. When I asked why he responded with I can't hit the students here if they do something stupid.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

That does answer alot. I will do my own research, but allow me to take the next logical step and ask what are the differences between Bushido and Taoist/Buddhism? At least as they apply to MA philosophy?

 

[Marginal]

Heck, throw in Neo Confucianism while we're at it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That does answer alot. I will do my own research, but allow me to take the next logical step and ask what are the differences between Bushido and Taoist/Buddhism? At least as they apply to MA philosophy?

Your asking a very big question that may require a thesis and I doubt I am qualified to answer fully.

That is a question I will have to get back to you on.

The quick, extremely over simplified answer is Bushido tends to be more regimented where Taoism tends more towards nature. As for Buddhism, I am speaking of a Chinese Buddhism, which has been influenced by Taoism so I am not exactly sure how to answer that part of the question.

Buddhism changed slightly as it moved East from India to Japan.

And yes Confucianism played a part in both Japanese and Chinese societies so it is a player here too, but to do a comparison of Taoism/Buddhism and Bushido is hard enough.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Heck, throw in Neo Confucianism while we're at it.

I broke out my “Tao Te Ching”, “Sun Tzu Bing fa” Books on Buddhism, Taoism, Busihdo, Confucius and Shinto when I remembered what "Marginal" said.

I then remembered a book I had recently read by Forrest E. Morgan – Living the Martial Way and I realized I have over complicated this answer.

What are the philosophical differences between Chinese and Japanese MA? Through studying martial arts (mostly shotokan), I've learned that the philosophies of Japanese MA were strongly based on the preservation of honor (death before dishonor, even), integrity, etc. While I don't know much about philosophies of Chinese MA, I don't recall ever learning of anything within Chinese philosophical concepts that bore similarity to Japanese. Anyone here have any thoughts or knowledge on the subject?

You asked about a blanket philosophy or connection and I began by answering by talking about the root.

Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism started out as philosophies, not religions. They became religions later after their founders had died.

Taoism is indigenous to China
Buddhism came to China from India and became Chan Buddhism.
There are Taoist and Buddhist philosophical influences on martial arts in China.

There is also a Taoist influence on Buddhism in China. But Confucianism influenced most everything in China and continues to do so today.

In Japan, There is an indigenous religion of Shinto. Chan Buddhism comes from China and becomes Zen Buddhism. And Confucianism comes from China as well.

Many if not all of the Martial Arts in Japan are influenced by these.
A philosophy arises in Japan called Bushido. If you compare Bushido to Confucius you begin to get similarities.

“Confucianism is a legalist philosophy which addresses man’s roll in society. Confucian ethics are the backbone of nearly all legal systems in Asian nations and the founder of all Eastern codes of honor”
- Forrest E. Morgan, Living the Martial Arts Way

Bushido: Literally “Way of the Warrior” A feudal code of Japanese warrior ethics evolved from Confucian thought.
- Forrest E. Morgan, Living the Martial Arts Way

Now in Japan Martial Arts Change from Jitsu to Do. Forgive me if my memory is mistaken here, Japanese Martial Arts was a long time ago for me.

Jitsu is a War Art where a Do is more for self cultivation.
This is not to say that a master of Jujitsu is more or less dangerous than a Master of Aikido. I just think it I would be more likely hurt real bad real fast by the Jujitsu master where the Aikido master may give me a chance to change my ways before hurting me real bad.

I think if you are looking for a philosophical connection between Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts, you should start by comparing Bushido to Confucius thought (the non-religious version)

The philosophical differences come from the root and that is a very complicated question to answer. Then you have to look at Taoism and Buddhism as well as Shinto, Confucius, Zen and Bushido.

I will add that Japanese martial arts tend to be more regimented and in a dojo. Where Chinese martial arts training although intense tends to be less regimented, you can go to Beijing and practice Martial Arts in the park.

And I have probably over complicated this answer as well.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

I was giving it some thought and I had what I consider to be a pretty good thought. Let me start it like this. If I had to explain to someone the difference between a traditional Japanese martial artist and a Chinese one, I would say this:

A Japanese martial artist is mostly motivated by honor and the preservation of his family name. And, like Xue Sheng said, very regimented and military minded.

A Chinese martial artist is mostly motivated by... well nothing. I view a Chinese martial artist as being mostly devoid of want and desire. Again, just as Xue Sheng said, very flowing with nature.

I think there in is the answer to my question, the presence of desire. At the most fundamental level, a Japanese martial artist has desire, a Chinese martial artist does not. Perhaps I don't understanding all of these things, but, based on what I do understand, I believe that's it. What do you guys think? Xue Sheng?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A Japanese martial artist is mostly motivated by honor and the preservation of his family name. And, like Xue Sheng said, very regimented and military minded.

A Chinese martial artist is mostly motivated by... well nothing.

First I think you may have opened up a big can of worms with that statement. ;^)

Japanese Martial artists are motivated by honor, yes. Japan is a more militaristic society in General than China. Or I should say they place more importance on war than China. The soldier in Japan (Samurai) was of the upper class. The soldier in China is not given such a high position in Chinese society.

But Chinese martial artists are motivated. They just have different, generally more philosophical motivations. Betterment of themselves, to help others, etc. But there can be less philosophical motivations too. Family heritage, Fighting, survival etc.

A martial art such as Tai Chi that comes from Taoism has a reason for existence and I am sure a Taoist is very motivated as is a Martial artist from Shaolin, which comes from Buddhism. Bagua has a basis it Taoist circle walking as well. There are internal and external Martial Arts in China that can have different motivations. And some of those are honor and integrity. Go to YMAA's site and look at the list Dr Yang has. Or other Chinese martial art sites that have similar codes, if you will.

I am currently doing research on the Taoist side of things because I am, mainly, a Tai Chi person and I feel that if I am to progress in Tai Chi I have to know more about the root.

Chinese martial artists are motivated, but that motivation is not always as obvious. And Chinese martial artists tend to be less forth coming with their knowledge nor do the show off much. A Confucian saying applies here “The nail that sticks up gets hammered down”.

Remember Japanese martial arts has its basis in Bushido and Bushido is related Confucianism which comes from China.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

Again, Xue Sheng, you make some excellent points.

First, such a statement as that probably would have opened a can of worms... if anyone were reading this thread other than you and I. LOL.

After reading what you posted about Chinese motivation, I began thinking some more. Perhaps what I wrote about Chinese martial artists is only what APPEARS to lie on the surface. And, much like the ocean, a view of the surface does not even begin to explain the world of information that lies beneath. I suppose it could be that what motivates a Japanese martial artist is simply more apparent. It could be that the motivation of a Chinese martial artist is far to complex to understand at a glance. I think I need to do some more research. Back to the drawing board.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Again, Xue Sheng, you make some excellent points.

First, such a statement as that probably would have opened a can of worms... if anyone were reading this thread other than you and I. LOL.

True.

Another point to consider is that in Chinese history the martial artists has, from time to time, been considered a threat. Both during the Qing Dynasty and under Mao, martial artist were killed. I believe the burning of the Shaolin temple was during Qing. Martial artists/warriors were considered a threat because they tended to be ones that generally were at the forefront of rebellions. So many Chinese martial artists tend to stay quit about their martial arts.

During most of Japan's history the martial artist was revered.

 

[Henderson]

First, such a statement as that probably would have opened a can of worms... if anyone were reading this thread other than you and I. LOL.

There are many others reading this thread...(and enjoying the discussion by the way)

 

[AlwaysTraining]

There are many others reading this thread...(and enjoying the discussion by the way)

That's very good to hear. If any of you out there reading this thread feel as though you have something to add, please do so.

 

[AlwaysTraining]

True.

Another point to consider is that in Chinese history the martial artists has, from time to time, been considered a threat. Both during the Qing Dynasty and under Mao, martial artist were killed. I believe the burning of the Shaolin temple was during Qing. Martial artists/warriors were considered a threat because they tended to be ones that generally were at the forefront of rebellions. So many Chinese martial artists tend to stay quit about their martial arts.

During most of Japan's history the martial artist was revered.

That's another point I hadn't considered. Boy, the answer to this question is turning out to be far more complex than I originally anticipated. At least, it seems as though the Japanese portion of this question is relatively straight forward. However, the Chinese portion seems to have several twists and turns. Very ambiguous.

The Chinese portion of the answer, thus far, has the concern of Taoism/Buddhism, the concern of being discovered as a martial artist, influences of Confucianism, and who knows what else. After yet another bout of reconsideration, it would seem to me that Taoism/Buddhism and the fear of being discovered as a martial artist would be the greatest influences in the philosophical standpoint of a Chinese martial artist.

Hell, if I were a philosophy student, I just might do a thesis on this question.

 

[heretic888]

That's another point I hadn't considered. Boy, the answer to this question is turning out to be far more complex than I originally anticipated. At least, it seems as though the Japanese portion of this question is relatively straight forward.

This is most likely due to a misunderstanding of Japanese history on the part of the questioners, honestly.

The answer to your inquiry is very complex and involved, since you are discussing a subject matter that potentially spans several centuries of turbulent history in Japanese civilization. All of the simplistic appeals to "bushido" seem to ignore the fact that "bushido", as such, never became a formalized system of conduct until the early part of the 18th century, and most certainly was not agreed upon by all members of the buke caste. The famed Hagakure, for example, was seen as something of dangerous radicalism even among Yamamoto Tsunetomo's own han.

Zen Buddhism, Tendai Buddhism, Shingon Buddhism, Shin Buddhism, Ryobu Shinto, Shugendo, and Neo-Confucianism can all be seen as influencing budo philosophy at different points in Japanese history. Taoism in general, and Onmyodo in particular, can also be seen as influencing different aspects of Japanese thought. Matters are further confounded by the fact that, historically, the Japanese have typically exhibited an extreme degree of religious tolerance and syncretism (both Shugendo and Ryobu Shinto were created by merging aspects of Buddhism and Shinto, for example).

Once again, the answer is inevitably bound up in particular contexts. It really does depend.

Laterz.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's another point I hadn't considered. Boy, the answer to this question is turning out to be far more complex than I originally anticipated. At least, it seems as though the Japanese portion of this question is relatively straight forward. However, the Chinese portion seems to have several twists and turns. Very ambiguous.

The Chinese portion of the answer, thus far, has the concern of Taoism/Buddhism, the concern of being discovered as a martial artist, influences of Confucianism, and who knows what else. After yet another bout of reconsideration, it would seem to me that Taoism/Buddhism and the fear of being discovered as a martial artist would be the greatest influences in the philosophical standpoint of a Chinese martial artist.

Hell, if I were a philosophy student, I just might do a thesis on this question.

It would be a good Thesis.

I was wondering if it would not be better to approach this from 1 point instead of several. For example, my understanding it that martial arts came from China and went to Okinawa and possibly Japan at the same time or shortly there after from Okinawa. If this is the case there is a Shaolin Kempo which the last Shaolin Kempo guy I talked to told me came from Shaolin and went to Okinawa, Shaolin is Buddhist, how did it change from there?

You really do not see a Japanese version of things like Tai Chi, Bagua, which have roots in Taoism, so how much Taoist philosophy is shared between Chain and Japan. Taoism is indigionous to China, Shinto is indigenous to Japan. As a side note, I believe the only fighting art indigenous to Japan is Sumo.

If you are looking for a philosophical link between Japanese and Chinese martial arts, it is possible that it would lean more towards Buddhism and Confucianism and not so much Taoism.

Taoism influenced Buddhism in China and then Buddhism went to Japan and was influenced by Shinto. So there is a Taoist influence, but I am not sure to what degree that influence would be. But that is a very debatable point and it is a debate I do not wish to get into here, that wuold be a different discussion.

You have asked a very big question if you try and include all of the historical factors, cultural factors and religious factors it becomes extremely complicated and can get overwhelming.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just a quick thought.

If the shared influences of Chinese and Japanese martial arts are Buddhism and Confucianism.

Then, and this is purely speculative, but could it be that the reason there seems to be many differences between Chinese and Japanese martial arts, and their philosophies, be that on the Chinese side you have a greater Taoist influence and on the Japanese side you have a greater Shinto influence?

 

[AlwaysTraining]

This thread is becomming pretty indepth. I'm going to have to do some more research to keep up. But, still, keep discussing.