Tang Soo Do and the Chinese connection

[glad2bhere]

Dear Robert:

Good points! I liked McCarthys' and Bishops' work both but seemed to come back to Sells over and over. Call it a personal preference, then. :idunno:

Where I would like to see the discussion go is not so much as "where we been" as much as "where we can go" when it comes to studying this relationship between Chinese and Korean traditions. Needless to say we need not limit ourselves to TSD (though this IS a TSD group). As you can see I don't really support the idea of identifying a Korean activity that happens to use Japanese/Okinawan kata to relate to Chinese material as a way of making a case for a relationship between Korean and Chinese arts. There ARE relationships and I think that includes some of the stuff that TSD people are already doing. I think examining the similarities in execution for Taek Kyon and Northern Chinese Kicking styles would be one place. Maybe some of the Chin Na sub-sections of Northern Chinese Boxing styles as compared to the sort of grappling, joint-locks and throws one sees in TSD would be fruitful. But I think pursuing the Okinawan side of what someone such as Hwang Kee used instead of the MYTBTJ side is probably not as productive for maintaining the true integrity of the Korean arts. Thoughts?

BTW: I didn't comment on your earlier remark about people professing a 2000 year heritage for TSD but I am right there with you. I wish folks would let that go. I trace Korean martial tradition back as far as the end of the Yuan (Mongol) dyn and the beginning of the Yi dyn in the 14th century. Its reasonably well-documented and most other popular martial traditions don't go back anywhere near that far. Talking about connecting with the HwaRang from the Three Kingdoms period SOUNDS nice, but really isn't academically practical. I think they should give that line a rest and focus on more well-founded lines of tradition. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Dear Robert:

Good points! I liked McCarthys' and Bishops' work both but seemed to come back to Sells over and over. Call it a personal preference, then. :idunno:

I beg to differ on this point. I think just the opposite is the case.

The information from Bishop's book was compiled from interviews of famous and not so famous teachers he did while actually living in Okinawa.



As for McCarthy's works.....I knew him when he lived in Japan and while visiting his home on several occasions saw the stacks of translations of various MA related documents (Bubishi; etc) both he and his wife Yuriko worked on.

Most of which went into the books he has written since 1994.



If you could give some specific examples (pages, paragraphs or otherwise) from either of the above mentioned authors works that would

corroborate where and what they "go back to" in Sells works I would be grateful.



To be brutally honest I have not seen much that John Sells or George Alexander for that matter have really broken the ground on as far as MA research. Neither speaks Japanese well enough to translate the language therefore making any “translated” work more susceptible to error and inaccuracies.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Robert:

I think you may have mis-read my post. What I was wanting to communicate was that I have regard for both McCarthy and Bishop but it is "I" who find myself returning to Sells and that is why I made the comment about the preference. Each author, in his turn has been praised and villified on various Nets with the single most antagonistic being on SABAKI and on E-BUDO. Everybody has their favorite. I have also seen sharp criticism of the late Don Draegers' writing though this seems somewhat unfair to me as he was very much a pioneer and most folks can enjoy critiquing his work from the historical vantage point he helped to construct. Humans-- ya gotta love 'em!

I am hoping we can get back around to discussing the relationship between Korean material and its Chinese precursors. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Dear Robert:

I think you may have mis-read my post. What I was wanting to communicate was that I have regard for both McCarthy and Bishop but it is "I" who find myself returning to Sells and that is why I made the comment about the preference.

I see.

Each author, in his turn has been praised and villified on various Nets with the single most antagonistic being on SABAKI and on E-BUDO. Everybody has their favorite. I have also seen sharp criticism of the late Don Draegers' writing though this seems somewhat unfair to me as he was very much a pioneer and most folks can enjoy critiquing his work from the historical vantage point he helped to construct.

True he was a pioneer.
I cant fault him for trying...... there were some honest mistakes in his works. If he were alive today no doubt he would rectify them.

I am hoping we can get back around to discussing the relationship between Korean material and its Chinese precursors. Thoughts?

I cant see much of a relation between the so called Korean Arts and Chinese Arts........that is unless you throw in Japan and Okinawa as a spring board.
Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Kum DO, Hapkido........all HUGELY influenced if not almost completely from Japan and Okinawa to say the very least.....I dont see much direct Chinese connection in the arts mentioned above.....which seem to be the most popular "Korean" Arts

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Robert:

Yes, I know what you are saying. Each time one of these Korean arts come up for conversation it is invariably from the perspective of the Japanese influences. To my way of thinking its not that there aren't connections but rather that folks always seem to focus on the Japanese side of the house. Gumdo is an excellent example. Easily 90% of the folks who train in this art follow the Japanese Kendo traditions which have been imported. Start talking about the swordwork found in the MYTBTJ and conversation dries up. The same holds true for the Tan Tui, Yang TCC and KWON BUP that supposedly influence Hwang Kee. Nobody wants to talk about THAT. They would much rather discuss the more distant material from Okinawa and Japan. There are at least four major Chinese boxing traditions influencing modern Korean martial arts including Long Fist, Praying Mantis, Tan Tui and their Chin Na aspects. There are a host of lesser influences such as the traditions from the Son Monasteries, the SHIP PAL GI, the hosts of Chinese military advisors that pre-dated Japanese incursions and the more obscure influences of Korean nationals with the Manchurian influnces across their northern borders. Nobody wants to talk about these. Getting people to talk about training in the recognized Korean weapons is like pulling teeth. They would much rather train in nunchukas, escrima sticks, Japanese and Chinese staff or some exotic weapon they stumble across in a MA supply store. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Dear Robert:

Yes, I know what you are saying. Each time one of these Korean arts come up for conversation it is invariably from the perspective of the Japanese influences. To my way of thinking its not that there aren't connections but rather that folks always seem to focus on the Japanese side of the house. Gumdo is an excellent example. Easily 90% of the folks who train in this art follow the Japanese Kendo traditions which have been imported. Start talking about the swordwork found in the MYTBTJ and conversation dries up. The same holds true for the Tan Tui, Yang TCC and KWON BUP that supposedly influence Hwang Kee. Nobody wants to talk about THAT. They would much rather discuss the more distant material from Okinawa and Japan. There are at least four major Chinese boxing traditions influencing modern Korean martial arts including Long Fist, Praying Mantis, Tan Tui and their Chin Na aspects. There are a host of lesser influences such as the traditions from the Son Monasteries, the SHIP PAL GI, the hosts of Chinese military advisors that pre-dated Japanese incursions and the more obscure influences of Korean nationals with the Manchurian influnces across their northern borders. Nobody wants to talk about these. Getting people to talk about training in the recognized Korean weapons is like pulling teeth. They would much rather train in nunchukas, escrima sticks, Japanese and Chinese staff or some exotic weapon they stumble across in a MA supply store. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

That's all well and good but this topic is about the Chinese connection of Tang Soo Do. Since Tang Soo Do was imported to Korea via Japan via Okinawa they cannot be left out of the discussion.
In fact, many Chinese aspects of Tang Soo Do/Karate Do/Tode have been lost or discarded. Case in point........the Chi Na aspects that are found in the kata of Tang Soo Do/Karate Do/Tode are not practiced in Japan by Karate practitioners but are still widely practiced in Okinawa and are called "tuite".

 

[glad2bhere]

"......That's all well and good but this topic is about the Chinese connection of Tang Soo Do. Since Tang Soo Do was imported to Korea via Japan via Okinawa they cannot be left out of the discussion.
In fact, many Chinese aspects of Tang Soo Do/Karate Do/Tode have been lost or discarded. Case in point........the Chi Na aspects that are found in the kata of Tang Soo Do/Karate Do/Tode are not practiced in Japan by Karate practitioners but are still widely practiced in Okinawa and are called "tuite"....."

Dear Robert:

I keep rechecking my posts to see if there is some reason you are responding in such strong, perhaps even dogmatic, terms. Nor am I completely sure that the points you are laying out as statements are necessarily supported by history.

I don't know that anyone agrees that "Tang Soo Do was imported" such that it follows that Japan and Okinawa CANNOT be left out of the discussion. Couldn't you say that the influences of Japan and by extension Okinawa might bear as much discussion as do the Chinese influences? Why avoid giving the Chinese influences their propers especially inasmuch as the focus of the discussion is on Chinese influences?

What is a greater concern is your idea that the Chinese influences have somehow been lost or discarded and, if practiced, are only followed by practitioners in Okinawa. Where would you have gotten such an idea? To my ears it sounds as though you are working awfully hard to diminish the Chinese influences in deference to Japanese material. The Chinese methods of kicking, striking, grappling and weaponry have been documented in Korean martial science for some 500 years as were the export of Chinese martial practice to both Okinawa and Japan in the 14th century. In this way "The way of the Chinese Hand" has been intermixed for centuries with most martial traditions of the Asian continent. If you are particularly concerned with the recent use of the term "Tang Soo Do" well I can understand your reluctance, but I really think you need to broaden your perspective some.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[RRouuselot]

Firstly, I would prefer you don’t address me by my first name. Called me old school but I don’t know you and have never given you permission to do so.

Secondly, it would seem you try to change topic occasionally by referring to other Korean arts.

I have brought a TSD connection to Japanese/Okinawan arts because they ARE directly related. You seem to prefer to try and make a diatribe about other Korean arts.

Dear Robert:

I keep rechecking my posts to see if there is some reason you are responding in such strong, perhaps even dogmatic, terms. Nor am I completely sure that the points you are laying out as statements are necessarily supported by history.

My statements are based on facts.

Fact 1)

The Pinans, Kusanku as well as other Okinawa kata are practiced in TSD as well as TKD

Fact 2)

The Pinans were invented by Itosu.....an Okinawan.

Fact3)

Karate was introduced to Japan by several Okinawans around 1921

Fact 4)

I have yet to see any concrete evidence that TSD or TKD existed before 1921

Fact 5 )

The founder of TKD studied Karate in Japan

I don't know that anyone agrees that "Tang Soo Do was imported" such that it follows that Japan and Okinawa CANNOT be left out of the discussion.

Sorry to say but if people believe some of the hogwash that has been thrown around for the history of TSD I doubt they will.

Couldn't you say that the influences of Japan and by extension Okinawa might bear as much discussion as do the Chinese influences? Why avoid giving the Chinese influences their propers especially inasmuch as the focus of the discussion is on Chinese influences?

I would say given my response above that Japan/Okinawa have more influence than China.

Which kata practiced in TKD or TSD came directly from China?
If there are any do they out number the ones brought from Okinawa via Japan?

What is a greater concern is your idea that the Chinese influences have somehow been lost or discarded and, if practiced, are only followed by practitioners in Okinawa. Where would you have gotten such an idea?. To my ears it sounds as though you are working awfully hard to diminish the Chinese influences in deference to Japanese material.

I think you need to re-read that section of my post again.

OK......lets look at it this way.

I have been living in Japan for going on 20 years. I am fairly active in the MA community here, specifically Karate. To date I have yet to see any real Chinese influence on Japanese Karate, the Japanese have seen to that by changing much if not almost of of what they were taught......Okinawan Karate very obviously has a connection......but Japanese karate..... not hardly. Don't belive me? Ask a a Chinese MA person living in Japan what they think..........I have.

Therefore, if people that do TSD are doing a more Okinawan/Chinese version then I can see a connection. If they mimic the Japanese version I can’t.

The Chinese methods of kicking, striking, grappling and weaponry have been documented in Korean martial science for some 500 years as were the export of Chinese martial practice to both Okinawa and Japan in the 14th century. In this way "The way of the Chinese Hand" has been intermixed for centuries with most martial traditions of the Asian continent. If you are particularly concerned with the recent use of the term "Tang Soo Do" well I can understand your reluctance, but I really think you need to broaden your perspective some.

Which can be seen in many Okinawan systems to this day.......not so much in the Japanese systems of Karate. Therefore since elements of Chinese MA did go to Korea by way of Okinawa where they were called Karate/Tode (Tang kanji) among other things and then on to Japan in the 1920s to be called Karate (Ku kanji) and eventually to Korea to be called Tang Soo Do I'm wondering just how much "Chinese-ness" is left in TSD. If there is please enlighten me with specific examples.

 

[RRouuselot]

Just as an added little example of the non-Chinese but heavy Japanese influence on TSD........the belt ranking system.

 

[glad2bhere]

Gees, but you seem to be working awfully hard at being contencious.

Let me say this one more time for the kids in the cheap seats.

1.) Nobody is denying a connection of Japanese traditions to Tang Soo Do.
If the title of this thread were, say "Tang Soo Do and the Japanese Connection" you would be right on the money. The title of the thread is "Tang Soo Do and the Chinese Connection".

2.) I am sure you read my earlier post (May 26) providing three major areas through which the Chinese martial traditions are transmitted to Korean traditions, including Tang Soo Do. I'm not sure why you need for me to reinterate the information here. Why not just page back and re-read what you might have skipped-over earlier.

3.) Your belief that the only artifacts to be found in Tang Soo Do that may bespeak Chinese influence might be the totality of a practiced hyung suggests that you may need to broaden your understanding of the transmission of martial traditions. The term "bup" ("method") is used to identify a particular approach to accomplishing a goal. The practice of stringing such methods together to produce a hyung is a relatively modern innovation.

Now, I think I could be forgiven for concluding that you have some special point to prove by belaboring the connection of Tang Soo Do with Japanese traditions. Thats fine. Unfortunately I already have a reasonable appreciation for the Japanese aspects of Korean traditions. I also have an aversion to feeding straightlines to people who seem to have little interest in doing anything other than acrimonious exchanges. You are certainly welcome to continue here on the "friendly net". However, you will need to continue without benefit of my attention as of this post.

Regards.

 

[RRouuselot]

Gees, but you seem to be working awfully hard at being contencious.

Let me say this one more time for the kids in the cheap seats.

contencious??? or is that contentious??

Let me also say it for those in the nose bleed section where the O2 level seems to be thin just incase they or anyone else missed my question.

I am still waiting for someone to show me the Chinese-ness/connection of TSD.......kata, technique or otherwise.

My contention is the main if not only "Chinese connection" to TSD is via Okinawa and Japan. Can anyone show me otherwise. I am mean after all that’s why we are here on this thread to discuss the "Chinese connection" of TSD. If there is a connection please post it so dumb folks like me can learn somthing.

If the title of this thread were, say "Tang Soo Do and the Japanese Connection" you would be right on the money.

Nobody seems to be supporting the opposite.........therefore should I conclude I might be correct?.........at least until I am proven wrong.........

3.) Your belief that the only artifacts to be found in Tang Soo Do that may bespeak Chinese influence might be the totality of a practiced hyung suggests that you may need to broaden your understanding of the transmission of martial traditions.

I am all ears........what are the Chinese connections to TSD if not the kata/hyung and possibly the techniques there in?

It would seem that Kata/Hyung are extensively practiced in both TSD as well as TKD. They also seem to be mainly from an Okinawan origin that in some cases originated in China but now differ from their Chinese version in Okinawan, Japanese and Korean arts.

Since Okinawans generally practice the techniques that make up Kata/Hyung and not just the kata/hyung themselves it might be safe to say that they could very possibly be aspects of the original Chinese arts. But I guess according to you I need to broaden my "understanding of the transmission of martial traditions". So, you read my Bio on here and think you can judge my level of understanding? Quite frankly you have had a condescending attitude towards me in the last couple of you posts then when it comes time to support what you say on this topic is about storm out.

 

[RRouuselot]

In order to "catch up" with the other 4 Korean kwan Instructors that were teaching Japanese Karate as Tang Soo Do, Hwang Kee began adding Okinawan techniques and forms from book(s) located where he workded. He even began awarding black belts to his students a year after he began teaching the Okinawan forms even though he had never tested for one.

Just out of curiosity what do people reading this thread think about someone learning from a book and then testing/giving ranks? Is this the only place he learned Okinawan forms from?

I for one find it rather odd……..anyone else think so?

 

[glad2bhere]

I am not going to work harder at your education than might you but I will put your feet on the correct path. It will be up to you to walk it. Here is a start.

Step 1.) Pull up J. Szymanskis' website (INSIDE CHINA) and read his article on the relationship among the methods of Taizu Long Fist, Chen TCC and the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU of Gen. Qi.

Step 2.) Beg, borrow or steal a copy of the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI and read the KWON BUP chapter (Book 4, Chap 1.)

Step 3.) Utilizing the insights you have garnered from the first two steps, examine Hwang Kees book, or failing to find a copy, grab a copy of TANG SOO DO ("The Ultimate guide to the Korean Martial Art") by Kang Uk Lee. The hyung in Lees' book are indeed the kata derived from Okinawan interpretation of Southern Chinese Boxing methods. Practice identifying the methods in you are now familiar with in the forms derived from Okinawan traditions. The excution is somewhat different but with practice you will begin to recognize the methods.

Step 4.) Now do the same thing for the TAE KUK hyung practiced in Tang Soo Do and reportedly derived from Yang TCC. The 29 Methods "borrowed" by Gen. Qi from Taizu LF Boxing 32 Methods and transmitted to Yang TCC through Chen TCC are RIGHT THERE! Still Not enough?

Step 5.) Now do the same thing with "Shaolin Chang Chuan" hyung practiced in Tang Soo Do. The same methods albeit reorganized are likewise found right there.

Step 6.) Finally, examine the biomechanics of individual kicks and the overall kicking curriculum as it relates to Okinawan teaching and then as it relates to Northern Chinese traditions Cha Quan. The use of hip and body axis regarding northern Chinese kicking execution is distinctly different from southern Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese.

I am afraid this is as much as I can do for you.

 

[RRouuselot]

I am not going to work harder at your education than might you but I will put your feet on the correct path. It will be up to you to walk it. Here is a start.

Again with the condescending attitude…….it’s getting old.



Thanks for the suggested reading list……not really what I was looking for in an answer though since it will take a good deal of time to track down the books,read them, digest them and the come back here with a reply.

I was actually interested in something a bit more specific when I was referring to an example of how Chinese influenced TSD. Something like a specific technique or kata/hyung. Do you have anything like that?



From what I have read so far about this Hwang Kee cat it seems as if he just read a book or two then decided he was going to teach Tang Soo Do. Sorry to say I but if it’s true I find it rather disturbing.

Step 6.) Finally, examine the biomechanics of individual kicks and the overall kicking curriculum as it relates to Okinawan teaching and then as it relates to Northern Chinese traditions Cha Quan. The use of hip and body axis regarding northern Chinese kicking execution is distinctly different from southern Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese.

Actually I lived in China for several years. I did notice that in some cases the kicking was the same as some Okinawa schools and in some it was different. It mostly depended on the school, teacher, style etc........I saw what were commonly called Northern style aspects in some southern schools and vice versa. The same is true in Okinawa. Some schools use very southern Chinese style kicking methods while others use northern style. That was really due to teacher, style, and in some cases the size and population of the dojo.

 

[RRouuselot]

…………. Itosu was instrumental in developing and modifying Okinawan material and is generally identified as the originator of the last three Pinan Kata (the first 2 are often ascribed to his teacher, Kyan, Chotoku) either deriving them from the no-longer-extant Channon kata or possibly from material found in the KuShanKu kata. In any event he seemed determined to find a more user friendly (and less combative) alternative to the traditional introductory kata Naifanchi, which he is likewise associated with having reportedly split the original kata into two pieces and adding the third version as well.

Kyan was Itosu’s teacher???? Really?? This is the first I have ever heard of it. It’s rather odd since Itosu was almost 40 years older than Kyan. Itsu as far as I have ever read only claimed one teacher, named Matsumura.........I have looked through most of the Karate material I have in English and Japanese and can find no reference to Kyan being Itosu’s teacher.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

I need to ask you to try and tone down the condescension. There are ways of getting your point across without inflaming or being challenging.

Robert,

Based on your time in Okinawa, what would you say the primary differences between our execution are versus the execution of the Okinawans?

 

[RRouuselot]

Bruce,


Robert,

Based on your time in Okinawa, what would you say the primary differences between our execution are versus the execution of the Okinawans?

As far as kicks?



I have noticed that there are basically 3 different types of kicking methods regardless of place, style or teacher, north or south.

1) Low

2) Mid level and High level

3) High with spins, jumps etc…

I have seen all 3 types in China and Japan (two places I have lived and trained for some time) as well as Korea which I visit from time to time when I need to get my spicy food fix.

If you break down each kick into different types they could be done in this manner:

1) power

2) thrust

3) flicky

4) toes pointed

5) toes not pointed

Both groups are very generalized.

On the whole Okinawans tend to kick low to mid level……some Shorin Ryu groups do kick high but I think it is more due to teacher, space available

, and possibly age.

Chinese tend to be a mixed bag of just about everything under the sun but mainly, not entirely, it is determined by style.

From my exposure to Korean arts I have seen both low and high kicks. The higher kicks tend to be incorporated with jumps, spins and what not, however outside of TSD and TKD I have seen some practitioners do low kicks

 

[RRouuselot]

I just watched a video on this website http://www.greatwarriorpak.com/ of Mr. Pak in 1986……it was very interesting to see the Kata he performed. Especially since the beginning of it looked almost identical to a fairly rare kata I know called Motobu Passai (not to be confused with the 50 or so other versions)....after the first few moments it changed radically though.

 

[RRouuselot]

Kodanjaclay,


Can you tell me the name of the Kata your teacher is doing in the video I mentioned? Thanks in advance.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I would love to, unfortunately, I do not know that hyung. TSD, and I'm certain many others are similar in this respect, has many forms that are required; however, there are also quite a few that are not required and are sometimes assigned to help focus on a particular aspect of training for a particular student, or school. For example, I know a guy who has a school, and he does all the same hyung we do, and then he also does more of the Kwon Bup hyung than anyone else I know.

Sorry, I know it does not help much. I have not had the opportunity to ask Master Pak.