Passing of the Torch.. .

[SahBumNimRush]

What are you going to do about dan certificates? Print some up with your name on it and issue that to your students? What about your own future promotions? How is that going to be handled?

My Sahbumnim is retiring, not my KJN. Our KJN still holds all tests, and issues the certificates.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Bear in mind that it wasn't at all difficult to find out the names of the people you're referring to, so it probably won't be difficult for them to find this thread it they were looking for information being written about your school...

Yeah, it's not hard to figure out who I'm referring to, because of the details I have given and that I post the link to my school on here. At the same time, I haven't ever seen anyone from my association on here, nor do I feel I am saying anything out of line. That said, I don't feel comfortable going into a lot of detail until the whole situation has unfolded, whether they may see it or not.. .

I've struggled with whether or not to post anything about the situation at all, but in the end, I'm happy about the transition of running my own school and wanted to share it. And look for opinions of others that may have been in similar situations that I am presently in.

Thanks for the words of caution though Andy.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

After a talk with one of my instructors tonight, things were put in a much clearer light. My interpretation of someone being passed over, wasn't exactly correct. It was more of me being given the opportunity to branch out. The two senior instructors of our branch school are retiring from active school instruction, and I am being given the responsibility of the school. If anyone higher than me wishes to open their own school, that is their prerogative. Makes it look alot less like I am doing something outside of the chain of command, which is the part I have been struggling with personally.

Again, thanks to everyone weighing in on my situation, all opinions have been well received!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Since Glenn has posed the inquiry. I am curious what everyone thinks. My KJN does have KKW certification. However, he does not teach any WTF forms, terminology (i.e. we refer to forms as Hyung not Poomsae), etc.. . I know that Glenn is a huge proponent of the unification process, but at what cost? Do I belong in the KKW? I do not teach the curriculum supported by the KKW.

His question of what happens when my Kwan Jang Nim passes, is a valid question. However, I do not have a solid answer to this. He along with other Korean masters formed the United States Taekwondo Won to serve as an organization to preserve and support traditional taekwondo. However, I am not confident that this organization will thrive, despite it's good intentions. Many have been promoted through the organization that have lost their instructors, such as John Critzos II (a student of the late Ki Whang KIM). The schools that our organization have interacted with over the years have went in different directions.

I know that GM K.W. AHN (a founding member of the USTW and long time friend of my Kwan Jang Nim) is active with the USTC and is KKW ranked and taught his students the WTF curriculum along side of the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum. My KJN did not. C.S. KIM has the ITF (International Tang Soo Do Federation), C.W. KIM is KKW ranked and teaches the WTF curriculum and is on the board of directors of the U.S. Grandmasters Society. Seems so many have different organization ties, and I only have my teacher. This does not affect my training, but it begs the question is it going to make it more difficult to market what I offer if I am not part of an organization larger than myself when my KJN is no longer there.

Has anyone else here on MT ever been in a situation similar to mine?

 

[dancingalone]

Given the forms and curriculum you practice, I tend to think you'll find more familiarity aligning yourself with a senior Tang Soo Do teacher if it should come to that. There are plenty of credible TSD grandmasters who would likely be very happy to take in students of your GM, who is held in high regard.

Of course if belonging to the biggest, most world-wide TKD organization is a consideration, then we all know that path starts with the Taegeuks.

I am familiar with several 'orphaned' instructors in a number of systems. Most usually just stay at whatever their last rank was which is mostly adequate if they have reached something like 5th dan at least as it is a rare student who will reach the same heights. One guy just proclaimed his 5th dan the highest anyone could reach in his independent school. He has promoted his senior student to the same rank and they co-run the schools together. And a couple do something a little dubious in my opinion like have their students (local black belt association) promote them to a higher rank by acclamation.

My karate teacher is a 7th dan and he has no living teacher so he has been at 7th dan for years and years now. That also means I will never rise higher than 6th dan myself likely which I am OK with. But if my teacher passed away and I wanted to continue to achieve higher rank, I suppose I would need to find another teacher to accept me, which is no comfortable task at my experience level.

 

[andyjeffries]

I've struggled with whether or not to post anything about the situation at all, but in the end, I'm happy about the transition of running my own school and wanted to share it. And look for opinions of others that may have been in similar situations that I am presently in.

Definitely, good idea. Sorry I couldn't give more help from experience.

Thanks for the words of caution though Andy.

No worries mate, good luck. Don't forget to post back and let us know how it develops (nothing like watching the first half of a film and not seeing the ending ).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Given the forms and curriculum you practice, I tend to think you'll find more familiarity aligning yourself with a senior Tang Soo Do teacher if it should come to that. There are plenty of credible TSD grandmasters who would likely be very happy to take in students of your GM, who is held in high regard.

Of course if belonging to the biggest, most world-wide TKD organization is a consideration, then we all know that path starts with the Taegeuks.

I am familiar with several 'orphaned' instructors in a number of systems. Most usually just stay at whatever their last rank was which is mostly adequate if they have reached something like 5th dan at least as it is a rare student who will reach the same heights. One guy just proclaimed his 5th dan the highest anyone could reach in his independent school. He has promoted his senior student to the same rank and they co-run the schools together. And a couple do something a little dubious in my opinion like have their students (local black belt association) promote them to a higher rank by acclamation.

My karate teacher is a 7th dan and he has no living teacher so he has been at 7th dan for years and years now. That also means I will never rise higher than 6th dan myself likely which I am OK with. But if my teacher passed away and I wanted to continue to achieve higher rank, I suppose I would need to find another teacher to accept me, which is no comfortable task at my experience level.

Im not driven by rank and if I were to get to 5th dan and never progress any higher it would not bother me. Also, I dont think there is anything wrong with a school that only grades up to 5th dan, in most cases that would require the best part of 20 years training and thats a lot of experience regardless of what endevour you are talking about. In many schools 7th dan and above are honorary anyway and dont require anything more than continuing in your training for the required number of years, so providing you've trained for that time then I would see no problem with going to the next rank even without a GM's signature. If Im looking for a school, Im looking for an experienced instructor who knows his stuff and can run a good class. I dont tend to worry too much about the stripes on their belt or certs hanging on the wall.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Given the forms and curriculum you practice, I tend to think you'll find more familiarity aligning yourself with a senior Tang Soo Do teacher if it should come to that. There are plenty of credible TSD grandmasters who would likely be very happy to take in students of your GM, who is held in high regard.

Of course if belonging to the biggest, most world-wide TKD organization is a consideration, then we all know that path starts with the Taegeuks.

I am familiar with several 'orphaned' instructors in a number of systems. Most usually just stay at whatever their last rank was which is mostly adequate if they have reached something like 5th dan at least as it is a rare student who will reach the same heights. One guy just proclaimed his 5th dan the highest anyone could reach in his independent school. He has promoted his senior student to the same rank and they co-run the schools together. And a couple do something a little dubious in my opinion like have their students (local black belt association) promote them to a higher rank by acclamation.

My karate teacher is a 7th dan and he has no living teacher so he has been at 7th dan for years and years now. That also means I will never rise higher than 6th dan myself likely which I am OK with. But if my teacher passed away and I wanted to continue to achieve higher rank, I suppose I would need to find another teacher to accept me, which is no comfortable task at my experience level.

I tend to agree with everything you have said (as usual, haha). I think that what I teach is much closer to Tang Soo Do (well, technically it IS TSD), and that there are many GM's that would take me under their wing if need be. I am also not that concerned about promotion beyond the rank I am now (5th Dan). I am eligible to test for my 6th dan in 2014, and I foresee my KJN still being around at that time so I may earn my 6th dan too. That would only help my future students, as it really does nothing for me personally.

Thanks for the insight!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Im not driven by rank and if I were to get to 5th dan and never progress any higher it would not bother me. Also, I dont think there is anything wrong with a school that only grades up to 5th dan, in most cases that would require the best part of 20 years training and thats a lot of experience regardless of what endevour you are talking about. In many schools 7th dan and above are honorary anyway and dont require anything more than continuing in your training for the required number of years, so providing you've trained for that time then I would see no problem with going to the next rank even without a GM's signature. If Im looking for a school, Im looking for an experienced instructor who knows his stuff and can run a good class. I dont tend to worry too much about the stripes on their belt or certs hanging on the wall.

I understand where you are coming from Ralph, beyond a certain rank there is no more technical learning. The higher ranks only mean something within a particular organization as it relates to responsibilities and experience. I am one of only 2 in my whole association that is still practicing that started the same year that I did (1985), the other is a 4th dan, so I see where you're coming from on not needing a rank higher than 5th dan. I'm glad there are people out there that still look for substance rather than clout.

 

[Manny]

Talking about ranks. My sambon is is 7th dan and he does not want to test for 8th dan because his teacher has an 8th dan already and he does not want to equal or passing his sambonim.

There was one time when my sambonim told his sambonim when he will go for the 9th degree black belt and the grandmaster said he was not interested in that. The grandmaster is in some kind of semiretirement. So maybe my sambonim will not go for the 8th dan but I think this does not bother him at all.

I will like to reach 5th dan status but maybe I won't, who know's what future can bring? however there is something I am sure about, I want to keep doing tkd/martial arts and I will go for the 3rd dan black belt in a couple of years more, that is one of my long term goals.

Manny

 

[IcemanSK]

All my best to you in your new chapter of your teaching and training! Fantastic!!!!

 

[StudentCarl]

...I know that Glenn is a huge proponent of the unification process, but at what cost? Do I belong in the KKW? I do not teach the curriculum supported by the KKW.
His question of what happens when my Kwan Jang Nim passes, is a valid question. However, I do not have a solid answer to this.
...This does not affect my training, but it begs the question is it going to make it more difficult to market what I offer if I am not part of an organization larger than myself when my KJN is no longer there.

My first thought is that this is not an immediate concern; you have time.
Second, your success has been based on what you do now--Tang Soo Do. If it works well I think you should be reluctant to change it. If you do, it should be a gradual evolutionary process that must begin first with building a relationship with a person well versed in the KKW curriculum. If your relationship and later the material are good chemistry with you, then you may grow that way over time. I think it all comes down to people.
In terms of marketing, how much does your organizational affiliation bring people in the door? Do you think you would miss out on some people if you are not part of a larger organization?

Best wishes,
Carl

 

[SahBumNimRush]

My first thought is that this is not an immediate concern; you have time.
Second, your success has been based on what you do now--Tang Soo Do. If it works well I think you should be reluctant to change it. If you do, it should be a gradual evolutionary process that must begin first with building a relationship with a person well versed in the KKW curriculum. If your relationship and later the material are good chemistry with you, then you may grow that way over time. I think it all comes down to people.
In terms of marketing, how much does your organizational affiliation bring people in the door? Do you think you would miss out on some people if you are not part of a larger organization?

Best wishes,
Carl

I agree, it is not an immediate concern, but right now I have a teacher and an organization; something larger than myself. My KJN is in his 70's, and inevitably will happen someday.

I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, depending on how you look at it, it is either a. a dinosaur art (less evolved than what is now Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan) or b. the bastard child of Soo Bahk Do and Taekwondo. I do not fully fit into either modern definition of either art.

As for marketing, I am more referring to the certification. To me personally, it means alot to have my KJN's signature on it. Would it mean as much having my name on it someday? I'm not sure.. .(I would say not).

I am ultimately trying to devise a long term plan, looking far down the road in the hopes that I may continue what I have been taught to future generations because I see worth in what I have been taught.

Thanks for the input Carl!

BTW, this is a decidedly more upbeat thread compared the the other highly active thread on the TKD forum right now dealing with litigation between organizations Maybe that should tell me something about large orgs.. .

 

[SahBumNimRush]

All my best to you in your new chapter of your teaching and training! Fantastic!!!!

Thanks for the vote of confidence Iceman!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Talking about ranks. My sambon is is 7th dan and he does not want to test for 8th dan because his teacher has an 8th dan already and he does not want to equal or passing his sambonim.

There was one time when my sambonim told his sambonim when he will go for the 9th degree black belt and the grandmaster said he was not interested in that. The grandmaster is in some kind of semiretirement. So maybe my sambonim will not go for the 8th dan but I think this does not bother him at all.

I will like to reach 5th dan status but maybe I won't, who know's what future can bring? however there is something I am sure about, I want to keep doing tkd/martial arts and I will go for the 3rd dan black belt in a couple of years more, that is one of my long term goals.

Manny

I understand not wishing to test for the same rank as your instructor. IMHO, it could somewhat cheapen the rank. My sahbumnim has 12 years more experience than I do, and exponentially more experience in running a school and teaching. I would be uncomfortable being the same rank as him at this point in my life. It's always good to set goals, and I am sure you will earn your 3rd dan!

 

[andyjeffries]

I understand not wishing to test for the same rank as your instructor. IMHO, it could somewhat cheapen the rank. My sahbumnim has 12 years more experience than I do, and exponentially more experience in running a school and teaching. I would be uncomfortable being the same rank as him at this point in my life. It's always good to set goals, and I am sure you will earn your 3rd dan!

I'm at an interesting point where I am the same rank as my instructor.

Am I his equal - hell no! He's got 40 years against my 24 and 13 years in his current grade compared to my 4 months.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I guess it's up to the instructor how he feels about it. For example, my instructor always wanted to reach his current rank (from being a child) and when he achieved it he doesn't feel he needs to move on.

He has another senior student (in another area of the country) who is one dan rank higher than he is, but this student always acknowledges my instructor as his teacher and bows to him the same as always.

Rank ain't nothing but a number... Sometimes it's important but past a certain point, less and less so.

(man, I'm starting to sound like a senior of mine and maybe starting to grasp noonchi after all these years).

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I'm at an interesting point where I am the same rank as my instructor.

Am I his equal - hell no! He's got 40 years against my 24 and 13 years in his current grade compared to my 4 months.

I can understand where you're coming from, but I guess it's up to the instructor how he feels about it. For example, my instructor always wanted to reach his current rank (from being a child) and when he achieved it he doesn't feel he needs to move on.

He has another senior student (in another area of the country) who is one dan rank higher than he is, but this student always acknowledges my instructor as his teacher and bows to him the same as always.

Rank ain't nothing but a number... Sometimes it's important but past a certain point, less and less so.

(man, I'm starting to sound like a senior of mine and maybe starting to grasp noonchi after all these years).

Certainly he is still your senior, and I understand your situation. My sahbumnim's first student is the same rank as him (both 7th dans), and there is certainly no argument who the senior is. But my comment is only that at this point in my life I feel undeserving (because I am undeserving) of being the same rank as my Sahbumnim. Now, in another 11 years or so (the minimum time in grade to achieve that rank), I may feel differently.. .

 

[andyjeffries]

Certainly he is still your senior, and I understand your situation. My sahbumnim's first student is the same rank as him (both 7th dans), and there is certainly no argument who the senior is. But my comment is only that at this point in my life I feel undeserving (because I am undeserving) of being the same rank as my Sahbumnim. Now, in another 11 years or so (the minimum time in grade to achieve that rank), I may feel differently.. .

I was responding to this part of your comment "I understand not wishing to test for the same rank as your instructor. IMHO, it could somewhat cheapen the rank" though, not about you in particular being ready for 7th Dan

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I was responding to this part of your comment "I understand not wishing to test for the same rank as your instructor. IMHO, it could somewhat cheapen the rank" though, not about you in particular being ready for 7th Dan

Yeah, I got ya.. . I think in the right circumstances it's totally appropriate. In others, I would disagree. Although the same could be said about any promotion I suppose.

I retract my generalized statement that "it could somewhat cheapen the rank."