Experience...helpful but not necessary?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Absolutely no argument from me there. BTW, I see you have experience in TSD. Who did you train under, if you don't mind me asking.

It was Tomkins Karate (TKA) back in the late seventies for about a year. I remember that we did pyung ahn forms and that one of the other students could never pronounce it right and called them 'peanut' instead. Couldn't tell you the name of my instructor. I was like nine or ten. That, and I remember the experience positively. I signed my older son up for classes with TKA when he was eight and he enjoyed it. Took about a year or so worth of classes and then moved onto soccor.

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

Out of interest, what problems would you consider common from teaching too much early on?

"too much" is when you neglect your own training because you're putting your time and energy into teaching. It takes more work and more focus to find the important lessons as you go beyond the fundamentals in any field. The more valuable the lesson, generally the more has gone into finding it.

It's possible to stand in front of a class of your juniors and feel confident because you know the basic curriculum well, and not think about what you don't know. It can be comfortable to be the senior--to feel too comfortable with where you are now. It's important to find time to become the junior again, to have humility and hunger to become as skilled as one's seniors.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It was Tomkins Karate (TKA) back in the late seventies for about a year. I remember that we did pyung ahn forms and that one of the other students could never pronounce it right and called them 'peanut' instead. Couldn't tell you the name of my instructor. I was like nine or ten. That, and I remember the experience positively. I signed my older son up for classes with TKA when he was eight and he enjoyed it. Took about a year or so worth of classes and then moved onto soccor.

Daniel

I was curious, because I saw that you are from MD, and arguably one of the best Tang Soo Do grandmasters in the U.S. was from around your neck of the woods. Grandmaster Ki Whang KIM taught in D.C. and I know he had a few branch schools in Maryland. Now I know some of us could/would argue he was not Tang Soo Do, but regardless he flew under that flag for a while.. . Just curious.

 

[auxiliary]

For outsiders looking in or new students, age does play a part whether rightly or wrongly. I have seen new students seem a little 'sus' when their instructor is a 3rd dan 24 year old, but for some reason people dont mind a 40 year old 1st dan. Maybe people off the street walk in and expect to see a "mr myagi" style instructor.

I always joke with this with my instructor. He's korean and we always say that when he teaches kids just listen better because of that. Imagine how much better of a teacher I would be if I was korean!


Women instructors get this too. Even though they're sometimes the best a lot of people feel awkward at first having a woman teaching them a martial arts. Personally I don't but I have worked with women instructors who get frustrated with that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was curious, because I saw that you are from MD, and arguably one of the best Tang Soo Do grandmasters in the U.S. was from around your neck of the woods. Grandmaster Ki Whang KIM taught in D.C. and I know he had a few branch schools in Maryland. Now I know some of us could/would argue he was not Tang Soo Do, but regardless he flew under that flag for a while.. . Just curious.

I am familiar with his studio. Might have to drop in some time, as it is fairly convenient; I pass it on the way to work everyday. http://www.kim-studio.com/

One of my instructors at KMA trained there many years ago. Kix Karate's founder came out of Kims as well.

Daniel

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I am familiar with his studio. Might have to drop in some time, as it is fairly convenient; I pass it on the way to work everyday. http://www.kim-studio.com/

One of my instructors at KMA trained there many years ago. Kix Karate's founder came out of Kims as well.

Daniel

I'm not sure who uses KIM's namesake after his passing. Mitchell Bobrow, Albert Cheeks, Mike Warren, John Critzos II.. . all legendary fighters produced under Grandmaster Ki Whang KIM. I know John Critzos II is the Karate Do instructor at the Naval Academy in Annapolis. We still see him and his cadets at competitions and functions. I know we haven't been supporting the Eagle Classic, and I assume it is because of who is using KIM's and his tournaments name. But, I really have no idea why our KJN has not sanctioned our participation in it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not sure who uses KIM's namesake after his passing. Mitchell Bobrow, Albert Cheeks, Mike Warren, John Critzos II.. . all legendary fighters produced under Grandmaster Ki Whang KIM. I know John Critzos II is the Karate Do instructor at the Naval Academy in Annapolis. We still see him and his cadets at competitions and functions. I know we haven't been supporting the Eagle Classic, and I assume it is because of who is using KIM's and his tournaments name. But, I really have no idea why our KJN has not sanctioned our participation in it.

I would assume that it is Grandmaster Roberts, based on what is in the website's about us tab: http://www.kim-studio.com/AboutUs/roberts.html

People locally still seem to regard them fairly well. I had trained at another 'Kim's' in Rockville in the mid to late eighties, Jae Kim's Karate, and in a conversation with someone a last year, once he heard the name, 'Kims', he immediately began spouting superlatives. Only after the conversation progressed did we realize that we were not talking about the same school. I had trained at Kim's Karate is TKD http://www.kimskaratemd.com/home.html), which had had a location in Rockville as well, though it was up across from Congressional Plaza.

Daniel

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I would assume that it is Grandmaster Roberts, based on what is in the website's about us tab: http://www.kim-studio.com/AboutUs/roberts.html

Daniel

Yeah, after looking at the website, it has to be Roberts. I remember seeing him around at different events when I was younger, but I'm not sure how he came to be the one with the rights to KIM's name. Either way, I don't know enough about Master Roberts to have an opinion one way or the other. I'm also not sure who promoted him to 8th dan after KIM's death.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah. You replied while I was adding content.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Experience is not always an adequate reflection of actual skill level. I've met people who have trained consistently for well over a decade but still perform with a set of fundamentally bad habits in their techniques.

Ten years is experienced, compared to who? After ten years of training, I felt like I didn't know anything, compared to my seniors. But then again, my first ten years of training weren't all that serious.

 

[puunui]

While I see your reasoning for the analogy, I have to disagree with it in this context. I would not consider Shorin-ryu watered down compared to what Gichin Funakoshi "changed" into Shotokan. It is different but similar. You and I are different, but under the name Taekwondo, just as Shorin-ryu and Shotokan are different but under the name Karate.

Before Taekwondo, I studied Shotokan Karate. Our Shotokan roundhouse kick consisted of lifting our kicking leg up like a dog about to pee, keeping our hips square, with our knee pointed forward, and then snapping the lower leg out, making contact with the ball of the foot. It was described as a horizontal front kick. That kick never got used when we sparred. Then when I studied Taekwondo and Hapkido, I learned a different type of roundhouse. If I had continued to do roundhouse kick like we did it in Shotokan, would that be watered down?

 

[puunui]

Out of interest, what problems would you consider common from teaching too much early on?

People may get the mistaken impression that teaching is the same thing as training. In fact, for a lot of "instructors", the only time they go on the mat is to teach. The martial arts are fundamentally different from other types of sports in that in the martial arts, we expect our instructors or coaches to maintain a high level of personal skill. Whether this is right or wrong is a matter of opinion. But right or wrong, that is the way it is. In comparison, no one expected Angelo Dundee to keep up with Muhammed Ali.

 

[andyjeffries]

People may get the mistaken impression that teaching is the same thing as training. In fact, for a lot of "instructors", the only time they go on the mat is to teach. The martial arts are fundamentally different from other types of sports in that in the martial arts, we expect our instructors or coaches to maintain a high level of personal skill. Whether this is right or wrong is a matter of opinion. But right or wrong, that is the way it is. In comparison, no one expected Angelo Dundee to keep up with Muhammed Ali.

But this sounds like a problem with teachers doing more teaching than training and losing their sharpness/skill rather than a problem of people teaching too much and too early?

I agree though, it is a weird expectation.

I know I've learnt from people in the past that couldn't do the things I could do (can't do them now I'm much older) but could still help me make them better...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

But this sounds like a problem with teachers doing more teaching than training and losing their sharpness/skill rather than a problem of people teaching too much and too early?

I agree though, it is a weird expectation.

I know I've learnt from people in the past that couldn't do the things I could do (can't do them now I'm much older) but could still help me make them better...

This is why I know a lot of higher dans that refuse to teach. They have limited time (they run businesses, have family commitments etc) and only have so much time to put into tkd. They dont necessarilly have a problem with teaching, but if it will detract from the time they have left to actually train and keep their skills sharp then they are not willing to teach at the expense of their own physical development. The only ones Ive met who can juggle the two effectively, have quit their day job and have become instructors full time which leaves them the time to continue their own training.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Before Taekwondo, I studied Shotokan Karate. Our Shotokan roundhouse kick consisted of lifting our kicking leg up like a dog about to pee, keeping our hips square, with our knee pointed forward, and then snapping the lower leg out, making contact with the ball of the foot. It was described as a horizontal front kick. That kick never got used when we sparred. Then when I studied Taekwondo and Hapkido, I learned a different type of roundhouse. If I had continued to do roundhouse kick like we did it in Shotokan, would that be watered down?

"Watered down" in my mind means that something has lost an aspect of itself. Because they are merely different identities, I don't see how it is watered down. Especially since an art like Shotokan has evolved in a different direction than Taekwondo has. Certainly few would argue that Shotokan had some level of influence on the initial development of what has became known as Taekwondo, but the two have both evolved in two distinctly different ways.

Because I practice a curriculum that predates the Kukki curriculum, I cannot see how something I do could be watered down from a kukki curriculum since the two diverged into two dinstinctly different styles. I don't see that one is superior than another, one is more watered down than another, but they are just two different things at this point.

Watered down to me would be a loss of transmission from generation to generation. For instance, a particular SD technique that was not taught to a student, who becomes an instructor/school owner and therefore never passes it on to his students. This would be watering down the art, because it has effectively lost a technique.

Another example would be a watering down in tradition, losing the two handed handshake, the bowing, the use of sir/mam. These things water down the structure of the art, because they are effectively losing a part of the tradition.

This is merely my interpretation of what watering down means. I'd be curious as to what other people feel water's down an art.

 

[Dragons TKD]

This is why I know a lot of higher dans that refuse to teach. They have limited time (they run businesses, have family commitments etc) and only have so much time to put into tkd. They dont necessarilly have a problem with teaching, but if it will detract from the time they have left to actually train and keep their skills sharp then they are not willing to teach at the expense of their own physical development. The only ones Ive met who can juggle the two effectively, have quit their day job and have become instructors full time which leaves them the time to continue their own training.

This is exactly why I go to a completely different school to train Muay Thai. No one knows who I am or what I do in my free time and the certainly don't know I'm a 5th dan in TKD.

When I'm at the TKD school, I have no time to train. Everyone is either asking me questions before and after class or I'm busy teaching the class. I'm lucky if I get to do some bag work during class with everyone else. Usually I only get to hit it a few times while demonstrating the technique.

 

[puunui]

When I'm at the TKD school, I have no time to train. Everyone is either asking me questions before and after class or I'm busy teaching the class. I'm lucky if I get to do some bag work during class with everyone else. Usually I only get to hit it a few times while demonstrating the technique.

Are you the head instructor at your Taekwondo school?

 

[Dragons TKD]

Are you the head instructor at your Taekwondo school?

That's kind of a tricky question to answer and I know where you're going with it. No, I am not the 'Head Instructor', but, if there is class going on, I am teaching.

We don't have our own store front currently. We teach out of an exercise room a couple times a week. The actual time we get to use the room is very limited. This is why training is nearly impossible for me. When students only see me once or twice a week, they have the other 5 or 6 days to think of questions for me it seems.

 

[Gorilla]

Teaching can be used as part of training. My kids teach about 1-3 hours per week. The sport stuff is usually training and teaching at the same time. About 1 hour of that is purely instructional teaching. I think that they learn quite a bit from teaching. It gives them perspective. We monitor how much they do they have to stayed committed to their own training and learning also!!!!

 

[puunui]

That's kind of a tricky question to answer and I know where you're going with it. No, I am not the 'Head Instructor', but, if there is class going on, I am teaching.

Are you thinking about opening your own school? Personally, I don't see how you could advance to 5th Dan without having your own school and your own students.