Pan Gai Noon - dead martial art?

[Seizan]

Oops...

In my previous long-winded diatribe I wrote:

But the performance style of Uechi Kanbun Sensei still exists, as left to the us by Toyama Seiko Sensei, ...

S/B "as left to us by Toyama Seiko Sensei ... Not "the us"...

 

[Xue Sheng]

To add to the confusion, as Xue Sheng tells, we also have simple and traditional Chinese (and there are older meanings to kanji that are not used today as well), and other Chinese dialects that don’t translate well into each other...

Xue Sheng also said,,,

The translation of 半硬軟 and it is no surprise - "partial hard soft".

The surprise is that no Chinese person would put this together this way

The person that did the translation is form Mainland China and rather well trained in Traditional Characters.

So, although I do not doubt a connection to Fujian I do feel that trying to find the art of origin, in China, with these characters 半硬軟 could make it rather difficult. However it is possible that if you found someone (college/university professor), in China, who was researching Chinese martial arts (and there are a few that are) he may be able to figure out what martial art, in Fujian, these characters 半硬軟 are supposed to represent. Basically you would need a person who is versed in traditional Chinese characters, like the woman I had look at them, and someone who was well versed in Chinese martial arts history. My translator is well versed in Traditional Chinese Medicine not CMA.

Personally I still think you are looking for an art that was categorized as internal/external and there is an art that is in Fujian, that I know of, that is and that is Fujian White Crane. However there could very likely be more that are still in existence as well as many that are now extinct

 

[punisher73]

Can photos be posted in these threads? I have the calligraphy for Pangainun, also the Wakayama Dojo sign with PangainunRyu in kana if anyone is interested.

The photo of the dojo sign was a bit faded so my wife Sumako recreated the sign in a second panel to clarify the kanji etc. I have a translation and explanation of the sign as well.

Yes, when you go to make a post, right above the text box where you write there are icons. The 4th from the right is for pictures. Click on that and you can either upload from your computer or link to a webiste picture.

I really enjoy reading the history that you have put up and don't think you are overstaying your welcome at all.

 

[punisher73]

A video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu, enjoy

 

[TimoS]

Kanbun Sensei named the system “UechiRyu Karate Jutsu” in 1940.

I am curious about this, because I remember reading somewhere that the renaming to Uechi ryu was done after the death of Kanbun Uechi. Of course, being a Shorin ryu student, I haven't really looked so much into the histories of other karate styles, when there's so much that is unclear even in what I study


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not really knowing Uechi Ryu but after watching the video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu I started to think more about Fujian White Crane


Fujian White Crane Kung Fu, 1st form, San Zhan

Fujian White Crane Kung Fu 2nd form 'Shi San Tai Bao

And this one is intersting because Yong Chun is Mandarin for the Cantonese Wing Chun

yong chun White Crane Kung Fu San Zhan

 

[clfsean]

Don't forget Ngo Cho Kuen (Wuzu Quan). It's another Fujian special!!

[video=youtube_share;nTSjQBpnZDk]http://youtu.be/nTSjQBpnZDk[/video]

 

[arnisador]

A video of Tohyama Seiko Sensei performing Sanseiryu, enjoy

So much rocking in his motion--many styles would of Karate be very negative on that! I studied Uechi briefly in RI and liked it a lot.

 

[Seizan]

Hello again...

The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu. Think of a soft flexible whip vs. a hard tough cane or staff. Both are going to hit you hard, no one's going to argue that one is better than the other when they both do the job so well...

Toyama Sensei told us that Kanbun Sensei did not have a stutter or any such speech impediment. I prefer not to get into the "why" that some folks tell he did have such a problem. I find no verifiable documentation that his son Kanei Sensei mentioned such a thing, either.

I am unable to attach personal photos or images from my own files. I get only an option to attach an image from some other URL. Most of those which I wish to post are not on any URL but in my own images file. If someone can guide me in posting such images, I'll supplement this post later. For now, I'll just press on with modified explanations (sans graphics).

The Wakayama Dojo signboard was recreated by my wife Sumako and placed next to the original photo of the signboard from around 1936. It was lifted from my old website and has been showing up here and there on others' sites. We don't really mind; she didn't put much into it (she just dashed it onto the paper, not realizing I would use it for essays) and wants to redo it with better-quality kanji later. I found the poor-quality repro online and post the URL below, since I can't post a better copy from my own files.

Typing the word "pangainoon" (as a single word and with that spelling) into Google Search will bring up several examples of the kanji.

I can't post the dictionary scans.

Sorry this might prove a bit clumsy for some following the thread....

~~~~~
(From an unpublished work)

The Words “Pan Gai Nun” and the Wakayama Dojo Signboard

The Japanese pronunciation for these kanji is "han ko nan". In both Chinese and Japanese, the kanji are the same (Japan got its kanji from China in the first place). "Han ko nan" means half-hard-soft and was taken as a name for one or more UechiRyu-related associations here on Okinawa (Hankonan Ryu, Konan Ryu, etc.).

"Pangainun" does not exist as a single word in Chinese and as such will not be found in any dictionary. Only by defining its kanji components can we find "half hard soft".

Following is information from a dictionary of shared Chinese-Japanese kanji. These are Chinese kanji characters with their Japanese pronunciations.

Pan is also "ban". In Japanese it is pronounced "han" and means "half".

The Chinese “Gai” is also pronounced "kowai" in Japanese - a similar pronunciation. When it is pronounced "ko" in modern Japanese it means "strong" (as in "tough, or durable"). If it is pronounced "katai" or "kowai" in modern Japanese, it means "hard".

Nun (also spelled “non”) is pronounced "nan" in Japanese and means weak or soft, depending on its usage. The word "yawarakai" is included the definition, related to "yawakasa" - one of the three main teachings of the older UechiRyu style.

Now let’s examine the signboard of the Wakayama Dojo. The sign and the clarified calligraphy are posted on this site:

http://cablemodem.fibertel.com.ar/diegokarate/fotos/fotos_indice_3.html

This is a photograph of the signboard. Beside it, closely matching the positions of the original symbols, is a clearer representation supplied by Sumako (my wife). The sign reads from right to left, and from top to bottom of each column.

The three columns of the sign read as follows:

Pan Gai Nun Ryu
Kara Te Jutsu Kenkyu Sho
Kyoshi Uechi Kanbun

Translation:

Half-hard-soft Style (or Method)
Empty-Hand Skills Study Place (or Study Hall)
Teacher, Uechi Kanbun

“Pan Gai Nun” is written in kana – Japanese symbols used for phonetic pronunciation of foreign words. Appended to the bottom of the right column of kana is the kanji symbol “Ryu” (style or method). The rest of the sign is Japanese kanji.

The information shown plainly in the photograph of the signboard contrasts somewhat with a report written by Mabuni Kenwa Sensei, the founder of ShitoRyu KarateDo.

In “The Story of Chinese Chu’an-fa” by Mabuni Kenwa (originally published in Karate Kenkyu, 1934 pg. 92-93.), translated by Mario McKenna, we find the following:

“My student and I were traveling on business. On the last day, we visited Higashi Kawagan-machi in WakayamaCity. On the way there the first thing I noticed was a signboard on the left. It read, Pangainun-ryu Toudi Master; Uechi Kanbun, Instructor.

“At the age of 20, Uechi had traveled to China and trained in pure Chinese style chu’an-fa for more than 13 years and returned an expert. I was impressed by the sign board which was in the Chinese style.”

According to photographic evidence, the sign was not in the Chinese style - nor did it read quite as described by Mabuni Sensei.

 

[Seizan]

Another Oops... My keyboard occasionally disagrees with my fingers that don't keep up with my thoughts very well.

Where I post

The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu.

I meant to say it is NOT seen in most contemporary performances or training of UechiRyu.

Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo. They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.

 

[punisher73]

Another Oops... My keyboard occasionally disagrees with my fingers that don't keep up with my thoughts very well.

Where I post

The "rocking" might be viewed as fluid-type motion than is seen in most contemporary versions of UechiRyu.

I meant to say it is NOT seen in most contemporary performances or training of UechiRyu.

Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo. They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.

Other than the video I posted of Toyama Sensei performing Sanseiryu, I haven't seen much of his approach. How does his approach compare with Shinyu Gushi?
I see slight differences, but I don't know if that is in approach or in the purpose for the demonstration of the form.

If you don't mind my asking. How did Toyama's approach to Kanshiwa differ from more modern versions? I know, most do the regular fist for the punches, and I have seen Gushi Sensei's version and he uses the one knuckle punch instead. I have seen others take out the toe kick and use a more modern kick ball kick. What is meant by "the old techniques" as you are defining it?

I find Uechi Ryu to be a beautiful style that kept it's chinese influence more than any other okinawan style I have come across, and I'm always looking to learn more about it.

As a side note, Kanei Uechi's "Blue Book" that sells for around $1500-$2000 for an actual copy can be found on kindle for $10 for those that want the information. Also, George Mattson's book on Uechi Ryu is also on kindle for around the same price (instead of the big pricetag for a paper copy).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very few CMA styles do what Fujian White Crane is doing in its forms and, at least to me, Fujian White Crane looks a lot like Uechi Ryu

 

[Seizan]

Hello!

I may be delayed in responding from time to time; we are in the middle of a typhoon right now and the Net is up and down. Taking the dog out for a walk would be more like flying a kite...

I can't comment on Gushi Sensei's performance style except to say it is not the same. To an experienced UechiRyu practioner, the differences are obvious. One might say the emphasis on certain aspects of the performances are opposite but equally valid. Toyama Sensei was a direct student of Kanbun Sensei, and I am convinced his performance style is the same as his teacher's.

This is becoming less a Chinese MA discussion and more a karate discussion. We can either move it over to the Karate section, or take it off line privately. But to answer the question about Kanshiwa, it is permitted in our dojo to use either shoken (one-knuckle strike) or seiken (full fist punch) for the three strikes at the beginning.

 

[arnisador]

Arnisador, if you studied UechiRyu in RI, I would guess it was Mr. Earle's dojo. They followed Kanei Sensei's performance style.

Yes, that's where I studied--over 20 years ago and only briefly while in school. I didn't fully 'get it' at the time, coming from Isshin-ryu and Goju-ryu and expecting another standard Okinawan style. But later I came to better understand the approach.

 

[Doomx2001]

Hello!
This is becoming less a Chinese MA discussion and more a karate discussion. We can either move it over to the Karate section, or take it off line privately.

But here is the gray area, there are people in Uechi ryu who say that Kanbun Uechi did not modify what he was taught, he taught his students exactly as he was taught in China. So, Uechi ryu could just be pure southern Chinese kung fu. Besides, when comes to Pangai Noon, you really can't have much of a discussion of it without bringing up Uechi ryu at some point. Also, if you want to examine the origins of Pangai Noon, the Chinese martial arts part of Martial Talk forum would be the best area to do that in as the people here might have more of an idea of Pangai arts there could be in China.

Also, thank you for all your input, it really adds the discussion.

 

[Doomx2001]

So far this is the closest video I can find that resembles Sanchin: This is Wuzu SanChiem by Master Zhang:

 

[elder999]

I posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here as well:

So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.

Sanchin is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three sets of elements at the same time:

• The mind, body and the techniques
• The internal organs, circulation and the nervous system, and
• The three ki, located in: the top of the head, (tento), the diaphragm (hara), and the lower abdomen (tanden)

Kyokushin Sanchin, and sanchin in general, are isometric katas, where each move is performed in a state of complete tension, accompanied by powerful, deep breathing (ibuki) that originates in the lower abdomen (tan den). The practice of Sanchin kata not only leads to the strengthening of the body, but it also aims at the development of inner power (ki) and the coordination of mind and body. It also emphasizes basic footwork, hand techniques as well as basic blocking techniques, and a fair amount of strategy: it not only teaches overall breath control, but is a tool of learning in no dori, to move in while an attacker is inhaling, or at the moment in between inhalation and exhalation. It, along with the kata tensho-what many consider the sister to sanchin-teaches the use of the rotation of the hand and wrist, leading and redirecting an opponent, and adding one’s power to their own.

One can find several versions of this kata performed, with and without the tension-including more than one Chinese form called “Three Battles,” related to White Crane, Here’s a really cool video I found of Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu, Shin Gushi of Uechi ryu/pangainoon, and two Chinese masters I’m completely unfamiliar with., Chen Jian Feng and a Master Pan, each demonstrating their respective version:

And here’s Shin Gushi, performing Uechi ryu’s sanchin kata, again:

Here’s the kyokushin version I learned as a kid-a bit more apparent tension than most other forms, but not really any tenser:

And Morio Hagionna, of Goju ryu, again:

Here’s Angi Uezi performing Isshin ryu’s sanchin kata, with tension:

but I’ve also seen Isshin ryu people do it without tension.

And here’s Toyama Seiko, another Uechi ryu master, performing another kata, at the age of 74:

I posted the last video to demonstrate what several of these gentlemen show, though, the true benefit of sanchin kata: vigor and strength into old age. Strength and vitality throughout one’s life are intimately tied to breathing and breath control, and this practice-done properly as part of an overall training program-contributes to longevity and vitality. I’m living proof of that-I’m not supposed to be breathing at all, at this age, or even to have reached this age, never mind still be breathing pretty darned well. I happen to know that Shin Gushi, who was about 68 when his video was done, smokes like a chimney. I also learned the Uechi version from my friend, Andre Tippett, about 25 years ago, and I practice both forms. I believe the open hands are the original martial application, and also allow for better ki development and flow, and think that the form should also be practiced without tension on occasion-but that’s just me, and what do I know?

 

[clfsean]

But here is the gray area, there are people in Uechi ryu who say that Kanbun Uechi did not modify what he was taught, he taught his students exactly as he was taught in China. So, Uechi ryu could just be pure southern Chinese kung fu. Besides, when comes to Pangai Noon, you really can't have much of a discussion of it without bringing up Uechi ryu at some point. Also, if you want to examine the origins of Pangai Noon, the Chinese martial arts part of Martial Talk forum would be the best area to do that in as the people here might have more of an idea of Pangai arts there could be in China.

Also, thank you for all your input, it really adds the discussion.

I look at Uechi ryu as good, solid Southern TCMA moved to an island is all...

 

[Seizan]

Hello all,

Sorry for the delay. Power went off a bit more than 48 hours ago and is still off in my section of Yomitan. I am typing this between classes at school (I teach English at a local Japanese middle school).

The 1977 Kyohon available on Kindle is most likely the David Smith “translation”, not the original or anything like it.

There seem to be several Sanchins performed with similarities but none identical to that which is used by UechiRyu. I still believe it exists somewhere, just not on YT.

Uechi Kanei Sensei stated in the 1977 Kyohon that his father Kanbun Sensei absolutely did not – could not – change the style he learned from Shuu Shiwa, and taught it exactly as possible. This near-extreme dedication to the teaching of one’s Sensei was not uncommon in that age (not really so long ago). When I locate the translation of that passage, I’ll post it.

The following refers to ZKK training only, and may not necessarily apply to any other practitioners of UechiRyu or system using Sanchin. As taught to Toyama Sensei by Kanbun Sensei, Sanchin did not mean three battles, conflicts, internal organs, ki points, etc. (I am told that Kanbun Sensei never spoke of ki or chi in his philosophy, nor did he refer to it in any training). Kanbun Sensei did however often refer to the “Three Challenges” of Sanchin (san = three, chin = challenge) as being softness, timing, and power on impact (yawarakasa, binkansa, chikarazuyosa). The meanings of these are taught in dojo and are much more than just the one or two words of definition typed here. But these are considered (for us, anyway) the three biggest personal challenges of our training – to develop these concepts and apply them to each technique in dojo, and in every aspect of our lives outside of dojo.

 

[Seizan]

I was asked regarding whether Kanbun Sensei changed or modified anything he learned from Shuu Shiwa. This extract from the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon are Kanei Sensei’s words on the matter, and match what I was told by Toyama Sensei.

*****
From: G. Seizan Breyette
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: Extract from UechiRyu Kyohon, with translation

About the translators: Sumako Matsuda is a Level 4 translator for the GoJ and the US Government here on Okinawa. The test for all government-position translation levels is administered through official DOD agencies in Washington DC and coordinated with the GoJ. Level 4 is the highest rating possible and is the required level for United Nations translators.

Higashimori Kei was the Dean of Teachers for the prestigious Naha International High School, Naha Okinawa. He is now Japanese Language Chief Instructor for Yomitan High School, Okinawa.

Kinjo Toya majors in English at Meio University in Nago.

I revised and edited for grammar and spelling, and to include alternate word or phrase translations.

Excerpt from page 410 in the 2nd half of the UechiRyu Kyohon -- The beginning of the paragraph is about Kanbun Sensei being granted the Menkyo Kaiden from Shuu Sensei. The translation here begins on the very end of line 4 (in the excerpt, it is the far right, last kanji on line 4, the kanji "Ue" for Uechi Kanbun"). Words or phrases in [brackets] represent alternate or clarifying remarks, since even single kanji may translate into a phrase rather than into single English words. Alternate translators will chose somewhat different phrases or diction but the meaning will be the same.

*****
Matsuda-Breyette-Higashimori-Kinjo Translation:

Uechi Kanbun deeply remembered the appreciation that Shuu Shiwa gave him. He believed that strictly passing [the training that Shuu Sensei gave him] on to the next generation was the highest [honor] he could show. So he never created kata, he didn't change or add; he preserved and cherished Shuu Shiwa's direct technique. This was the only Way (Do) that he believed in -- to preserve exactly the direct training [technique]. [He did not copy or modify, he did not imitate -- he lived the Do of Shuu Shiwa.]
We the modern generation shouldn't question [judge] the philosophy of the past Bujin [Master] by using our [ours, the modern generation's] understanding [philosophy]. [It is nearly impossible to understand the minds and attitudes of the past Bujin, so one cannot judge by modern standards which have never seen those old times.]

The way this person [Kanbun Sensei] lived to perfectly apply [his teacher's training] into his life as a matter of loyalty may be interpreted as no personal individuality [a loss of individuality] but it should be highly recognized [respected and honored as a huge personal sacrifice] because the very way he lived was his personally-chosen Do.

[Expl: Shutaisei kantetsu – a very difficult term to translate, as there is no direct translation of this concept. Kanbun Sensei was entrusted with a certain Way to live by Shuu Sensei, so by his personally-accepted obligation he could absolutely not change that Way. The minds of others did not matter to him or interest him. He had his own goals to achieve. His training from his Sensei was his total focus. Others could be more easily influenced to change or to make it a different way, but he wasn't so influenced. He had only one Way on which he focused].

So only the people who can evaluate [the life or mind of the Bujin] are the persons who lived with and had experience with him, otherwise we shouldn't try to apply modern understanding [it is mostly outside the realm of modern thought patterns and understanding].

(The above is repeated several times in slightly differing words throughout this section of the text.)

The way things are today are based on the past, and on the beginning created by people in the old times [Kanbun Sensei]. [The modern way is good because it deals with an understanding of modern times.] But one can't ignore [denigrate, deny, spurn, discard, scoff at, cast aside] persons [or ways, mannerisms, methods] of the past by [in favor of] modern standards [mind]. Uechi Kanbun is considered today to have had no individuality but actually he cherished Shuu Shiwa's teaching for the rest of his life. He made no changes [to what he was taught]. That was how the old-time Bujin was supposed to be -- loyal to his Sensei [refusing to be influenced by any other way or teaching, to maintain the teaching he got from his Sensei].

That was "common sense" in old times. But now it's very difficult to maintain that sort of life style [philosophy, way of living] except for one who is very humble and lives in a very simple and direct manner [free of desires for riches, fame, greatness, etc.].