PAK SAU .... The elbow or the wrist ?

[Kwan Sau]

Wow...this is amazing...4pgs of actual "discussion"! This would have never happened on a "different forum". hahahahaha... There would have already been lots of "wrong", "incorrect", "rubbish"....etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Well done Gents...well done indeed! Great topic too!
Carry on!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Videos , if you got em mate.
Bit easier than trying to visualise stuff in my head.

I'll make one available when I have training partner. My wife doesn't want to be in the clip. She thinks she is a bit over weight.

 

[dlcox]

It's interesting to see how such a simple move is interpreted differently both conceptually and theoretically by various practitioners. I don't see anyone as "wrong" or "right" just expressions of personal preference on usage. I suppose some of this has to do with comfort level and some to do with theoretical approach to defense. Personally when I employ Pai Shou I use an outside in manner. I am not real comfortable with using Pai Shou in an inside out manner. It was brought up about the strength of an extended arm, etc........ I will always try to parry from an outside in manner, not always possible, but if it can be done it will be. This is my reasoning; The human arm is designed to move inward towards the center line in a pulling/pushing fashion, this is where the strength lies. The arm is weak pushing/pulling towards the shoulder away from the center line.

Here's the experiment:

1.Extend your arm and have someone place a Pai Shou on the inside of your wrist. Have them try to stop you from pushing your arm to the center line.
(You will find that they have a hard time keeping your arm still.)

2. Now have them place the Pai Shou (other hand) on the outside of your wrist of that same extended arm. Try to keep your arm in place, don't let it move as they push towards your center line.
(You will find it hard to resist them.)

I do this simple exercise with students using only my index finger when on the outside and am able to demonstrate how weak the arm is moving outward and how it wants to connect with the persons own center line, this requires very little effort on my part. It is also the reason why when Pai Shou is done correctly requires very little movement. This is basic triangle theory. When a punch is fully extended this is where the power resides. It is also where the arm is at it's weakest point as far as applied directional force is concerned, it wants to continue the circle back to the root, via the center line, it is already at the apex of the triangle. This is why I always try to attack and connect a bridge from the outside of the arm. As I already stated this isn't always possible but it is my goal. In order to facilitate this goal this is where, in my branch, we use side body and footwork. If I can avoid hard and heavy contact through evasion there is no need to "recover" from broken structure or a weak/improper bridge, but that's a whole other topic. Understanding basic body structure is the key to getting maximum result out of a bridge.

 

[Eric_H]

The following combo is one of my favor "entry strategies".

1. My left back hand parry down my opponent's leading right arm.
2. I then throw a fast right punch at his face (a jab with only 30% committed force but with 100% speed - it's a fake set up punch).
3. When my opponent uses his left Pak Shou to parry at my right punch,
4. Before his left hand can touch my right arm, I'll pull my right hand back (just enough distance to let his left Pak Shou to pass and miss my punch).
5. I then punch my right arm back the same way at his face (but from the "other" side of his left Pak Shou).

I've used that drill to train both 4-gate tan sao, or Wu Sao/Juk Jern combo quite a bit with students in the past. It really wakes people up that the other person may have hand speed that far outclasses yours... have to learn to use structure and timing to take that away.

 

[mook jong man]

It's interesting to see how such a simple move is interpreted differently both conceptually and theoretically by various practitioners. I don't see anyone as "wrong" or "right" just expressions of personal preference on usage. I suppose some of this has to do with comfort level and some to do with theoretical approach to defense. Personally when I employ Pai Shou I use an outside in manner. I am not real comfortable with using Pai Shou in an inside out manner. It was brought up about the strength of an extended arm, etc........ I will always try to parry from an outside in manner, not always possible, but if it can be done it will be. This is my reasoning; The human arm is designed to move inward towards the center line in a pulling/pushing fashion, this is where the strength lies. The arm is weak pushing/pulling towards the shoulder away from the center line.

Here's the experiment:

1.Extend your arm and have someone place a Pai Shou on the inside of your wrist. Have them try to stop you from pushing your arm to the center line.
(You will find that they have a hard time keeping your arm still.)

2. Now have them place the Pai Shou (other hand) on the outside of your wrist of that same extended arm. Try to keep your arm in place, don't let it move as they push towards your center line.
(You will find it hard to resist them.)

I do this simple exercise with students using only my index finger when on the outside and am able to demonstrate how weak the arm is moving outward and how it wants to connect with the persons own center line, this requires very little effort on my part. It is also the reason why when Pai Shou is done correctly requires very little movement. This is basic triangle theory. When a punch is fully extended this is where the power resides. It is also where the arm is at it's weakest point as far as applied directional force is concerned, it wants to continue the circle back to the root, via the center line, it is already at the apex of the triangle. This is why I always try to attack and connect a bridge from the outside of the arm. As I already stated this isn't always possible but it is my goal. In order to facilitate this goal this is where, in my branch, we use side body and footwork. If I can avoid hard and heavy contact through evasion there is no need to "recover" from broken structure or a weak/improper bridge, but that's a whole other topic. Understanding basic body structure is the key to getting maximum result out of a bridge.

It makes sense because the arm going towards the inside has the big pectoral muscles of the chest to power it , but going to the outside is using the less powerful rear delts.

But sometimes it is unavoidable to parry the inside of the arm , it usually happens in those oh **** moments when you are trying to recover from a mistake.

 

[Eric_H]

You should definitely be moving your body mass in as fast as you can to generate force in your strike and hit him.
It does not have to be one punch , once the gap is opened up you just run him over with chain punches , one of the reasons it is important to have a nice economical Pak Sau is so that the Pak hand can be quickly cycled back into punching again.

Visualizing as best I can, we would probably call something in this vein using the "Chong Saat" (Crash Kill) strategy. It is different that engagement/bridging strategy (Ying or Jeet Kiu) for us. It's without question an effective strategy, just not 100% of the picture IMO. However if you're not looking for 1-hand vs 2 type of control, then it's not going to be your prerogative.

 

[mook jong man]

Visualizing as best I can, we would probably call something in this vein using the "Chong Saat" (Crash Kill) strategy. It is different that engagement/bridging strategy (Ying or Jeet Kiu) for us. It's without question an effective strategy, just not 100% of the picture IMO. However if you're not looking for 1-hand vs 2 type of control, then it's not going to be your prerogative.

To be honest , the Pak Sau and punch , although effective is sort of at the low end of the skill spectrum in Wing Chun.

Because you are using two hands to control one , experienced people who have been training for a long time in my lineage are usually able to use their "elbow force" to just punch through a guard using just the one hand.
It is seen as a higher level of skill to use a single arm , I imagine that would be the case in most lineages.

 

[dlcox]

It makes sense because the arm going towards the inside has the big pectoral muscles of the chest to power it , but going to the outside is using the less powerful rear delts.

But sometimes it is unavoidable to parry the inside of the arm , it usually happens in those oh **** moments when you are trying to recover from a mistake.

Ha! Exactly, it's at that moment things get interesting That's the real pressure cooker moment, will your structure hold or fail? I usually at this point force a clinch and entering into grappling before breaking off just to stymie the opponent and try to take away the advantage he has gained over me, unless they out grapple me then it become another Oh ***** moment.

 

[KPM]

You should definitely be moving your body mass in as fast as you can to generate force in your strike and hit him.
It does not have to be one punch , once the gap is opened up you just run him over with chain punches , one of the reasons it is important to have a nice economical Pak Sau is so that the Pak hand can be quickly cycled back into punching again.

Yes! Good points!

 

[KPM]

I will always try to parry from an outside in manner, not always possible, but if it can be done it will be.

--Yep. I would think most if not all Wing Chun people would agree with you! ;-)


This is my reasoning; The human arm is designed to move inward towards the center line in a pulling/pushing fashion, this is where the strength lies. The arm is weak pushing/pulling towards the shoulder away from the center line.

--MJM already nailed it. The pecs are much stronger than the posterior delt and the rotator cuff.

This is why I always try to attack and connect a bridge from the outside of the arm. As I already stated this isn't always possible but it is my goal. In order to facilitate this goal this is where, in my branch, we use side body and footwork.

--"Pin Sun" baby!!!! Sounds like we have a lot in common!

Understanding basic body structure is the key to getting maximum result out of a bridge.

--Absolutely! And use of angles to destroy structure goes right along with it!


MJM wrote:

But sometimes it is unavoidable to parry the inside of the arm , it usually happens in those oh **** moments when you are trying to recover from a mistake.

--This is when that "3 count flow" that I mentioned before comes in handy! You Pak on the inside (call it a "wrong Pak") with the first count, immediately replace it with a Tan on the second count and strike using the original hand on the third count. And again, this can be done very fast, negating any "chasing hands" accusations.Or if punches are coming quickly, the third count can catch his punch in a 1,2 combo with a Biu Sau as the other hand follows a split second behind with your own punch.

 

[dlcox]

I will always try to parry from an outside in manner, not always possible, but if it can be done it will be.

--Yep. I would think most if not all Wing Chun people would agree with you! ;-)


This is my reasoning; The human arm is designed to move inward towards the center line in a pulling/pushing fashion, this is where the strength lies. The arm is weak pushing/pulling towards the shoulder away from the center line.

--MJM already nailed it. The pecs are much stronger than the posterior delt and the rotator cuff.

This is why I always try to attack and connect a bridge from the outside of the arm. As I already stated this isn't always possible but it is my goal. In order to facilitate this goal this is where, in my branch, we use side body and footwork.

--"Pin Sun" baby!!!! Sounds like we have a lot in common!

Understanding basic body structure is the key to getting maximum result out of a bridge.

--Absolutely! And use of angles to destroy structure goes right along with it!


MJM wrote:

But sometimes it is unavoidable to parry the inside of the arm , it usually happens in those oh **** moments when you are trying to recover from a mistake.

--This is when that "3 count flow" that I mentioned before comes in handy! You Pak on the inside (call it a "wrong Pak") with the first count, immediately replace it with a Tan on the second count and strike using the original hand on the third count. And again, this can be done very fast, negating any "chasing hands" accusations.Or if punches are coming quickly, the third count can catch his punch in a 1,2 combo with a Biu Sau as the other hand follows a split second behind with your own punch.

Hi KPM,

I agree I don't think there is too much we don't agree on We've had a few spats in the past but looking back I can honestly say that they were more about being prideful and bullheaded than anything else.

I like the 3 count method and use a similar concept myself. Generally I employ a standing elbow/tan shou type maneuver to jam as I crash in on the 3rd motion. I find it helps keep my midsection covered and lends it'self well to grabbing. I like trapping and qinna at close range if I can pull it off. I also try to maintain a grappling structure that if small joint manipulation and good trapping can't be effectively used will lead easily into throwing. My branch is heavy on arresting and throwing techniques similar to jujutsu as it comes from the Ruan family and the bounty hunters that taught them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To be honest , the Pak Sau and punch , although effective is sort of at the low end of the skill spectrum in Wing Chun.

Because you are using two hands to control one , experienced people who have been training for a long time in my lineage are usually able to use their "elbow force" to just punch through a guard using just the one hand.
It is seen as a higher level of skill to use a single arm , I imagine that would be the case in most lineages.

To compare "1 against 2" vs. "2 against 1", which one is better? there is no absolute answer on that.

When your opponent throws a right punch at you, if you can use your

- right Pai Shou to parry on your opponent's right wrist from your right (this wrist parry won't give your opponent any chance for his elbow striking),
- left Pai Shou to parry on his right elbow from your left,

you can "crack" his right elbow joint.

 

[dlcox]

To compare "1 against 2" vs. "2 against 1", which one is better? there is no absolute answer on that.

When your opponent throws a right punch at you, if you can use your

- right Pai Shou to parry on your opponent's right wrist from your right (this wrist parry won't give your opponent any chance for his elbow striking),
- left Pai Shou to parry on his right elbow from your left,

you can "crack" his right elbow joint.

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of the 2 hand parry. I find, for me being of a grappling background, that 2 hands lend themselves better to locking and throwing. Much easier to catch an arm, neck, leg etc. This isn't my focus going in but I won't pass it up if the opportunty presents it'self. For me it's a safety and comfort thing. I'm sure we all have certain methods we prefer that many will look upon as basic or rudimentary skill. But if a technique yields a high percentage for you why discard it just hecause the general consensus looks down upon it?

 

[Rou30]

Some awesome ideas posted, thanks for that.

Just to add a bit from how I was trained.

We trained, actually all 3 methods posted.
Depending on the distance & angle between the opponent & I, I'd pak at either the wrist, forearm or elbow. I will post a brief scenario as to our reasoning.

Pak at the wrist; was mainly to deal with jab "style" punches, were brief, to the point, didn't always follow Wing Chuns concepts, but saved my face alot lol.
With jab type punches, you will find that you can't always get to the elbow in time, tried... Failed many times, hangs head in shame. Unfortunately that is reality at times, we train to put our opponent into our box, basically our playground as a Chunner, but those darn brutes don't always stay in the sandbox or even play nice for that much.

At the forearm; this idea was more of a Kiu Sau technique. We would start at the mid-forearm area, then either slide to the wrist or elbow depending on the energy, & motion of the attack. More of a way to try & gain control of the bridge, rather than a technique itself.

At the elbow; the elbow, we'd rarely pak the elbow(slightly above) it was more a follow up pak, after engaging with a biu sau or jong sau. Or in closer ranges, a way to control the limb & then follow up with ground work, i.e. Take down, kam na etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of the 2 hand parry. I find, for me being of a grappling background, that 2 hands lend themselves better to locking and throwing. Much easier to catch an arm, neck, leg etc. This isn't my focus going in but I won't pass it up if the opportunty presents it'self. For me it's a safety and comfort thing. I'm sure we all have certain methods we prefer that many will look upon as basic or rudimentary skill. But if a technique yields a high percentage for you why discard it just hecause the general consensus looks down upon it?

The "double pulling - 2 hand parry" that you use

- one hand to control your opponent's wrist,
- another hand to control his elbow,

is a very important skill in the grappling art. Not only you can use his leading arm to jam his back arm, since your elbow control can disable his entire arm (at that particular moment), you can free your wrist control hand to do whatever that you want to do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I use "wrist parry" too. When I drill "wrist parry" I like to add few elements into it.

- keep stepping toward my opponent's "right side door" (this way, his back left hand can't reach me).
- finish my parry with a grab.
- pull his arm toward his punching direction a little bit (this little bit pulling can prevent his elbow strike).
- move my head out of his punching path (in case I miss my parry/grab).

To others, this may look like "chasing hand", but it plays a very important part of my strategy. Here is a clip that I made not too long ago.

 

[dlcox]

The "double pulling - 2 hand parry" that you use

- one hand to control your opponent's wrist,
- another hand to control his elbow,

is a very important skill in the grappling art. Not only you can use his leading arm to jam his back arm, since your elbow control can disable his entire arm (at that particular moment), you can free your wrist control hand to do whatever that you want to do.

I absolutely agree. The other thing is that the position is very adaptable. Several bridge combinations can be employed based upon it's intended use. It's good for pushing, pulling, jamming, lifting etc. It may be less efficient from a boxing perspective as far as counter punching is concerned but ftom a wrapping/tying perspective as found in grappling it is an essential basic skill. Like the "Big Fist" & "Rhino Defense" it is a natural gross motor response that engages the opponent in a manner that allows for maximum effect with minimal effort while simultaneously keeping you covered. I'm all about an aggressive well covered defense that is used offensively.

 

[KPM]

I agree I don't think there is too much we don't agree on We've had a few spats in the past but looking back I can honestly say that they were more about being prideful and bullheaded than anything else.

--Yes! I think you are absolutely right!

My branch is heavy on arresting and throwing techniques similar to jujutsu as it comes from the Ruan family and the bounty hunters that taught them.

--Cool! I'm working on putting more such things into what I do as well. Sometimes Wing Chun tends to be too "direct". You don't always want to smash someone in the face! If drunk uncle Bob is giving you crap you might be in trouble if you sent him home to aunt Lola with a busted up face or some cracked ribs! ;-)

 

[KPM]

Pak at the wrist; was mainly to deal with jab "style" punches, were brief, to the point, didn't always follow Wing Chuns concepts, but saved my face alot lol.
With jab type punches, you will find that you can't always get to the elbow in time, tried... Failed many times, hangs head in shame. Unfortunately that is reality at times, we train to put our opponent into our box, basically our playground as a Chunner, but those darn brutes don't always stay in the sandbox or even play nice for that much.

At the forearm; this idea was more of a Kiu Sau technique. We would start at the mid-forearm area, then either slide to the wrist or elbow depending on the energy, & motion of the attack. More of a way to try & gain control of the bridge, rather than a technique itself.

At the elbow; the elbow, we'd rarely pak the elbow(slightly above) it was more a follow up pak, after engaging with a biu sau or jong sau. Or in closer ranges, a way to control the limb & then follow up with ground work, i.e. Take down, kam na etc.

Good summary! As I noted in a prior post, sometimes our thinking gets a little too "Wing Chun centric." I think we've all been referring primarily to a Pak and immediate punch against someone else throwing a straight punch. But you are absolutely right about a quick Pak at the wrist against a fast Boxer's jab. Sometimes that's about the only thing you CAN do! Boxers do this as well and call it a "cuff."