When the Opponent Covers Up.

[Vajramusti]

What tactics does your Wing Tsun / Wing Tsun lineage employ when attacking this type of guard or cover as commonly seen in boxing.

In our lineage one of our main ways to attack this guard is to take advantage of the weak angle of the arms and to step in with a double palm strike on the back of both his wrists and send his own hands crashing back into his head.

Another one commonly used is to rip the structure away with a latch off a Bong Sau whilst pivoting and Hook Punching with the other hand , or alternatively at closer range instead of ripping the guard down and Hook Punching we use an elbow strike instead.

What methods does your various Wing Chun / Wing Tsun clans use?

______________________________Many possibilities. Bue Jong Sao(from the first part of chum kiu) can work if done right.
joy chaudhuri

 

[Domino]

The double palm strike is in the Chum Kiu form.
There is no luck involved , only speed , skill , force and reflex.

But like any technique it has to be used in the right circumstances , and that means for this particular technique to work the angle of his arms must be small so that his hands aren't too far from his head .

You are stepping in with your full bodyweight with one of the most powerful techniques in Wing Chun , the double palm strike , all that against the back of his wrists.
Quite frankly if done properly you would be lucky if you didn't break his neck.

Now if you use it in the wrong circumstance where the angle of his arms is a lot larger and there is some distance between his hands and his head , then it won't have the desired effect .

The increased angle in the arms means that it is now a stronger structure , and a double palm strike will likely just bounce off his arms or push him back slightly.

If both his arms are further out and away from his head then he is more likely to be vulnerable to any type of pulling motion on his wrists , especially if his arms are quite tense.

Try not to think in terms of technique , but think in terms of what structure is presented before you and what direction of force applied by you will be the best way to attack that structure.

We can use our various hand structures to apply force upwards , sideways , diagonal , forwards , back , all you have to do is work out which one is best suited to the circumstance , and thats where skill and experience come in.

Thank you for the information MJM.
My 'luck' comment came as I sensed some sarcasm in Kamons reply, my bad if not, its nothing.

 

[chain punch]

couple of hook palm strikes to his ears, take the clinch and introduce him to your knees.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Thank you for the information MJM.
My 'luck' comment came as I sensed some sarcasm in Kamons reply, my bad if not, its nothing.

There was some heavy sarcasm in my comment, but also a genuine feeling of 'if it works for you then great'. I just feel it is a bad idea.

This is always why sparring with heavy gloves is important. Chunners and students of other systems, always come up with what they think is theoretically sound. Yet a lot of other arts rarely waste time with the theoretical - they try and test techniques

The form is to give you an idea of moves in wing chun, and somethings are not what they initially appear (ie double fut sao in the second part of sil nim tao is not actually meant to be performed like that in real scenarios)

All Im saying is that it is worth training with good boxers etc, who will cover up and make things difficult for you rather than insist a move you have never tried will work

 

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun does not need gloves though one can adjust to glove usage. The key is control over ones motions. Without self control- one wont learn much wing chun.I don't wear gloves when I spar... and use the right power for the right context.
Of course it's a good idea to try out one's skills with folks from other styles.Just know what rules for the interaction is involved. While working out with folks from other styles..I don't wear gloves unless someone insists on wearing gloves.

When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

Wing chun does not need gloves though one can adjust to glove usage. The key is control over ones motions. Without self control- one wont learn much wing chun.I don't wear gloves when I spar... and use the right power for the right context.
Of course it's a good idea to try out one's skills with folks from other styles.Just know what rules for the interaction is involved. While working out with folks from other styles..I don't wear gloves unless someone insists on wearing gloves.

When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.

joy chaudhuri

The point is that if you have never tried going up against someone who is gloved up and going at you with full force, you will never get the experience of being under true pressure. A lot of chunners delude themselves by thinking that bil tze will end fights. It wont. I have overpowered a lot of good chunners when Ive gloved up and gone at them because they werent used to an opponent comibng straight at them with aggression, range and power

If you have a vid of your supposed encounter with this good boxer, I would suggest that you post it on youtube and silence the critics of wing chun. But Im sure, as usual, we will hear the same old excuses...

 

[Domino]

I appreciate your 1st explanation Kamon, makes alot of sense.

 

[Vajramusti]

The point is that if you have never tried going up against someone who is gloved up and going at you with full force, you will never get the experience of being under true pressure. A lot of chunners delude themselves by thinking that bil tze will end fights. It wont. I have overpowered a lot of good chunners when Ive gloved up and gone at them because they werent used to an opponent comibng straight at them with aggression, range and power

If you have a vid of your supposed encounter with this good boxer, I would suggest that you post it on youtube and silence the critics of wing chun. But Im sure, as usual, we will hear the same old excuses...

_______________------------------------------------
I ignore the sarcasm in the last sentence.
I am not interested in silencing critics of wing chun but in discussing wing chun and trying to understand the best practice and usage of wing chun.
There is bil tze and there is bil tze-- depends on how much one knows and who is using it.
I am not unacquainted with gloves or doing wc against gloves or with gloves.
I don't do Kamon and won't comment on Kamon.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

_______________------------------------------------
I ignore the sarcasm in the last sentence.
I am not interested in silencing critics of wing chun but in discussing wing chun and trying to understand the best practice and usage of wing chun.
There is bil tze and there is bil tze-- depends on how much one knows and who is using it.
I am not unacquainted with gloves or doing wc against gloves or with gloves.
I don't do Kamon and won't comment on Kamon.

joy chaudhuri

joy chaudhuri

You are welcome to comment on Kamon, but I am not making any pop at your school. I am making a pop at your ridiculous claims that you stopped a good boxer with bil tze

But as mentioned, you are yet another chunner who makes a claim, and then when he is asked to simply back it up, gets defensive and says that he has nothing to prove

Dont make claims if you are unwilling to back it up - this is precisely why wing chun gets a bad rep on most forums

 

[geezer]

...Dont make claims if you are unwilling to back it up - this is precisely why wing chun gets a bad rep on most forums.

Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, we could try things out... but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And maybe all of us should do the same more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!

Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a bad attitude. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.

 

[Vajramusti]

Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, we could try things out... but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And maybe all of us should do the same more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!

Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a bad attitude. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.

-----------------------------------------------Thanks Steve- I do experiment and share. I don't expect people to take it at face value without experimenting themselves.
But sarcasm does not help with communication and I don't and didn't expect it here.
But I re-learned a lesson again about net talk. Best,

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

Kamon, I don't think this comment is applicable. Joy is a very senior WC instructor and basically he said he experimented with a technique and felt it was effective. I take him at his word. That doesn't mean I believe that biu tze, as I understand it, would be my choice in this situation. As far as "backing things up" goes, how can you do that on a forum? If we were all in the same room talking to each other, we could try things out... but in a written forum discussion? Of course it would be great if Joy could post a video demonstrating this application... for the sake of comprehension and furthering the discussion. And maybe all of us should do the same more often. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words and all. But on the other hand I'm practically computer illiterate, so don't expect that of me anytime soon!

Oh, and as far as why WC gets a bad rep... I blame it on all the WC guys (as well as their detractors) who basically just have a bad attitude. That's why I pretty much only hang out here.

Im not talking about experimentation with techniques - Joy stated very clearly that he used the technique with a good boxer and it worked against them. That to me is a powerful statement and one that needs backing up.

Too many chunners (even 'senior' chunners) make silly claims like this, and then expect people to take it at face value. THIS is the reason that WC gets a bad rep, and it goes hand in hand with a chunner having a bad attitude (ie making ridiculous claims)

You can back it up very easily on a forum - video the technique against the boxer (or any good practitioner of martial arts)

Otherwisem, dont make the comment to start with, as you pretty much offend people of other syles and we de-evolve into 'my style is better than your style' (ie in this instance 'my bil tze would handle a good boxer'). Nonsense

 

[geezer]

Im not talking about experimentation with techniques - Joy stated very clearly that he used the technique with a good boxer and it worked against them. That to me is a powerful statement and one that needs backing up.

Kamon, I agree with you here.

Too many chunners (even 'senior' chunners) make silly claims like this, and then expect people to take it at face value. THIS is the reason that WC gets a bad rep, and it goes hand in hand with a chunner having a bad attitude (ie making ridiculous claims)

OK, here's where I have a problem. When another martial artist makes a statement in good faith that sounds questionable to us, why do we have to respond using terms like "silly" and "ridiculous claims"? Why can't we just politely disagree and, as you suggest, ask for a videoclip demonstrating the technique being applied?

You can back it up very easily on a forum - video the technique against the boxer (or any good practitioner of martial arts)

Heck, I've never posted a videoclip. If it's so easy I've got to figure out how, since a few clips would sure make some of these dicussions a lot clearer. Anyway, I think it's fair to ask for a video demonstration before you accept someone's claims.

On the other hand, most of us are pretty busy and just make our posts in the vein of casual conversation. We aren't here to convert people, or recruit students. We are just sharing perspectives. If we had to "back up" everything we said regarding martial arts or anything else in life, people wouldn't say much! And, personally, I'm glad experienced practitioners like you and Joy contribute to this forum. I'd just hate to see us decend to the level of bickering that you find on some of the other forums.

 

[KamonGuy2]

OK, here's where I have a problem. When another martial artist makes a statement in good faith that sounds questionable to us, why do we have to respond using terms like "silly" and "ridiculous claims"? Why can't we just politely disagree and, as you suggest, ask for a videoclip demonstrating the technique being applied?

Because there are noobies to wing chun on here who rely on the advice from better or more senior practitioners. So I get angry when a 'ridiculous' claim gets posted which will mislead beginners into believing that wing chun is a simple matter of using bil tze to beat a boxer (not too disimilar to the Robert Downey Jr claims on Letterman)
The other point is that you will also rub other martial artists up the other way (ie claiming you can beat them by using one technique)

Heck, I've never posted a videoclip. If it's so easy I've got to figure out how, since a few clips would sure make some of these dicussions a lot clearer. Anyway, I think it's fair to ask for a video demonstration before you accept someone's claims.

My computer is ten years old and on its last legs, yet I still have managed to post clips on youtube and put the link on here

On the other hand, most of us are pretty busy and just make our posts in the vein of casual conversation. We aren't here to convert people, or recruit students. We are just sharing perspectives. If we had to "back up" everything we said regarding martial arts or anything else in life, people wouldn't say much! And, personally, I'm glad experienced practitioners like you and Joy contribute to this forum. I'd just hate to see us decend to the level of bickering that you find on some of the other forums.

Small claims are fine. I would never dispute someone who said they could handle a boxer etc, but in this instance the poster is claiming that he can defeat a (good) boxer with one move. This irks me as it is dismissive of boxers who are among the best strikers in the world. I train constantly against extremely good boxers with various results. Sometimes I catch them out, other times I get a few hits to the head. There is no one technique that would stop them. if there was, everyone would be doing wing chun

 

[wtxs]

When this thread began- I did an experiment for my own satisfaction.. I had a pretty good boxer/wrestler who has done both sports...my biu jee went straight through his gloves.If I had used fullforce I would have hurt him badly.joy chaudhuri

Joy's experiment shows he can make it work for him ... however, we do understand this biu gee technique may or will not work for everybody.

There was some heavy sarcasm in my comment, but also a genuine feeling of 'if it works for you then great'.

I think we all can agree on that.

 

[Vajramusti]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly Kamon guy you did not follow the thread carefully and/or read my post carefully.
It would be very unlike me to claim that a single technique done by anyone against a good boxer would work every time. The original post showed a guy holding his gloves next to each other in front of his face. And the poster asked for commnets on what different people would do in a singlr specific limited context.. I gave my commnet afterin an earlier post I first pointed out in a post that timing and an open line would be important.. then I did an experiment and shared what I did..
I am very respectful of beginners questions and would not knowingly mislead a beginner- specially in assuming that they can do biu jee.Ip Man taught very few people biu jee and generally not in the open classes. One of the corruptions in the You.tube age of serious subjects is that it can give the false impression that any one watching you.tube can do skilled things.
Very commonly people gravitate towards MMA whereas my general position is that if people stick with learning good wing chun they would become more and more skilled.-if they climb the wing chun mountain.
I have been doing wing chun since 1976 continously and not depending on lomg distance learning or occasional seminars. So if something works for me it works for me-not necessarily for a newbie.
By the way the person I experimented with is younger, faster and stronger than me- I would gas out if I depended on strength or speed alone. The beauty of wing chun is that with practice the learning curve continues beyond the athleticism of youth. Also, by the way.. in my time as a youth I also boxed.
So Kammon guy's sarcasm is unwarranted - one can just disagree without being sarcastic.

joy chaudhuri

 

[chain punch]

This is a most interesting debate. Without the use of video to support the claims of what works against a boxer, my question is what do you mean by it works? It penetrated his defence and he backed away? He stopped fighting? It made contact, he acknowledged it and you continued to spar/fight? Whilst slightly off thread, I am currently watching some vids on youtube from the bagua perspective. What the author attempts to do, and very well in my opinion, is to break down and illustrate bagua techniques and why they would and would not work in a live situation. As I am new to this forum stuff, is there a rule about posting video links?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPXHBIDO_1U&feature=bulletin

I can remove it if toes have been stepped on.

I seriously believe it is worth a watch. My art and love is wing chun yet watching this video has given me some ideas to work in sparring that will still adhere to what I am doing, why I am doing it. His bagua is not agaist a bagua man, nor should our wing chun be tested against a chunner.

Essentially, I am interested in what works from a wing chun perspective. To return to my original point what and how do you define a technique as working?

 

[geezer]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Possibly Kamon guy you did not follow the thread carefully and/or read my post carefully...
So Kammon guy's sarcasm is unwarranted - one can just disagree without being sarcastic.

joy chaudhuri

Joy, I'd just like to add this. Kamon kind of provides a counterpoint to your position. While you have been a consistent practitioner of one exclusive branch of WC for well over 30 years, he practices both Kamon WC and BJJ. And yes he is our resident grouch sometimes. But when he's away from this forum we really miss his input.

PS As a guy who has been in WC a long time... but with long breaks in my training, and even before that, often having to wait long periods between seminars with my former sifu, I have to acknowledge your point about consistent, uninterrupted training. There's no substitute for that! --Steve aka "Geezer".

 

[Nabakatsu]

Steve, your conduct rivals that of a grandmaster, You have my respect good sir!

 

[Vajramusti]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An opinion-/definition--- did I find an open line for an attack?
For defense- was I able to close the line?

PS: Yes Steve is a good de facto moderator.

joy chaudhuri