PAK SAU .... The elbow or the wrist ?

[Argus]

You are right!

- 1 is faster (efficient) than 1,2, and 1,2 is faster (efficient) than 1,2,3, but
- 1,2,3 is safer than 1,2, and 1,2 is safer than 1.

That's the trade off. When you apply 1,2,3 combo, you won't commit your punch 3 until both of your parry 1 and parry 2 are successful.

I'd have to disagree with you there! I know this is a common belief among many martial artists. But parrying an opponents attack without delivering an attack of your own is always more dangerous, because you will forever be at your opponent's mercy. If you are not threatening him, he doesn't have to worry about what you're doing and can continue to attack you however he sees fit. The point of single time counters is, to use a fencing analogy, steal the tempo in your favor, and gain the offensive. An opponent who is concerned about getting hit is far less dangerous than one concerned with hitting.

Simultaneous attack and defense can be a hard thing to apply, as you've mentioned. But it absolutely works, and should be trained extensively so that you can pull it off. Part of the challenge is simply changing your mentality towards the fight, and focusing on responding offensively to any action your opponent makes.

As Lichtenauer says, "Note the word 'simultaneously'; it is the key to great fencing."

 

[KPM]

I hear this all the time about the punch turning into an elbow , that would only be possible if you were completely passive and only did the parry without a punch going out at the same time.
If your parry and punch is simultaneous as it should be , then your punch will hit him before he can get into range for the elbow strike.

Besides , people are usually committed to the one action , either punch or elbow strike , not a liitle bit of both.

In Pin Sun we call this a "Got Bong" or "cutting Bong. If I am punching and you do a rather forceful Pak Sau near my wrist...even if you are punching at the same time, I can easily fold the forearm in and send the elbow out to deflect the punch and possibly strike into the center with the elbow. In fact, we have a 2 man drill to practice exactly this.

I do a Pak Sau anywhere from the mid-forearm to just above the elbow, depending upon the range. We consider it a mistake to Pak near the wrist because the opponent can easily convert to the elbow, which we practice doing as noted above.

 

[KPM]

This 45 degree or 30 degree toward yourself parry approach is much better than the 90 degree parry approach. It mainly "redirect" your opponent's punch in a small angle so his punch will pass next to your face. Many CMA styles call this kind of parry as "combing the hair".

When my opponent punches at me, I like to use

1. one hand to parry on his wrist first,
2. one hand to parry on his elbow next (prevent his elbow strike),
3. I then change my wrist parry hand into a punch.

I do something similar. But this comes from my Silat training. This "3 count flow" is very important in Silat or Kali. This is because they focus on dealing with weapons. When defending against a knife attack, you need to redirect the momentum and gain control as quickly as possible. This is the purpose of parrying 3 times for one attack. Wing Chun people may consider this "chasing hands." But I can do this 3 count parry in under 2 seconds.

 

[KPM]

l would say the main reason we parry at the wrist area is because it just takes a whole lot less effort , get a big strong brute of a man to hold his arm out and due to simple leverage it takes less effort to move his wrist than what it does his elbow.

--Yes, but this is where the trade-off comes in. Just as it is easier to move his fist off-line Pak'ing near the wrist, it is also easier for the opponent to simply fold the elbow as the fist moves off-line and convert it to an "Got Bong" or elbow strike. Your leverage is so far out that he can easily make use of the force.

The reason being that his elbow is closer to his power structure ie (his body) so it takes more force to move it.

--It does indeed take more force to move him when parrying closer to the elbow. And as you say it is because you have to affect his structure. But this is what we want to do! We aren't playing "patty cakes" here. We should be not just parrying a punch, but destroying his structure/balance at the same time if possible. When we do the Pak Da drill it all seems rather easy going. But in application, that Pak Sau should be delivered while stepping into the opponent's center with the punch so that not only is his punch deflected, but his structure and balance is affected at the same time.


Parrying at the wrist also gives you the option of bringing your legs into play for chain kicking , you are at the perfect range to use low heel kicks with the parry or after the parry latching on with the other hand and dragging the opponent into a hook kicks and stamp kicks.

---I think the kicks work just as well from a bit closer in. There is nothing that says you have to say at arm's length to throw a kick.

People are under the impression that by parrying the elbow you have the opponents arm under control , this is far from the truth.
Anyone who's been around for a while and has done a fair bit of chi sau knows that there are simple counters to someone trying to manipulate your elbow .

--Pardon me for saying so, but Chi Sau tricks are crap. If someone is stepping into your center while using forward pressure with a Pak Sau at your elbow to pin it to your body, you aren't likely to be able to swing that arm around. You're going to be back-pedaling trying to regain your balance. We practice this as part of our Pak Da drill. The "Pak'er" at some point choses to do a triangle step into the partner with a Pak to the elbow or just above it and punch at the same time that is designed to break the partner's structure and send him stumbling backwards. Then you reset and resume the Pak Da drill.

 

[J W]

I'll just copy paste my response in the previous thread, as I'm curious to hear your response:

If I understand your point correctly, Argus, then I agree with you. Wrist, elbow... not as important as center.

The first drill we practice is a punch/pak sao drill, and the pak makes contact with the wrist first- but only because that is what is in the center the way the drill is constructed. Partner's face each other square, one throws a centerline punch, the other performs a pak sao without stepping. If the drill were constructed differently, though- maybe with a step added- then the elbow might be in the center, at which point that is where contact would be made.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

l would say the main reason we parry at the wrist area is because it just takes a whole lot less effort ,...

Is it true that it takes less effort to parry at your opponent's wrist area? Let's compare the following 3 different situations:

You can parry at your opponent's

1. shoulder - This is just a light push on your opponent's shoulder. You try to interrupt his punch during the "beginning" stage when his speed and power have not yet been fully generated. In order to do so, you have to extend your hands near by his shoulder area. You have to use a long guard (such as the rhino guard).
2. elbow - you have to interrupt your opponent's punch during the "middle" stage when his speed and power have been 1/2 generated. In order to do so, you have to extend your hands near by his elbow area. You have to use a middle length guard (such as the WC guard).
3. wrist - you have to interrupt your opponent's punch during the "final" stage when his speed and power have been fully generated. In order to do so, you don't need to extend your hands. You only need to use short guard (such as the boxing guard).

Which approach is easier?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are not threatening him, he doesn't have to worry about what you're doing and can continue to attack you however he sees fit.

When I use

- wrist parry,
- elbow parry, and
- punch,

My opponent may just run his face into my punch - a head on collision. I don't have to move in toward him. I just wait for him to move into my punch. That is a threaten to him.

This clip can show what I'm trying to say. I know this may not be the "general" WC strategy. It is the praying mantis system bread and butter move. But when we talk about parry, we have to consider this approach.

 

[Argus]

If I understand your point correctly, Argus, then I agree with you. Wrist, elbow... not as important as center.

The first drill we practice is a punch/pak sao drill, and the pak makes contact with the wrist first- but only because that is what is in the center the way the drill is constructed. Partner's face each other square, one throws a centerline punch, the other performs a pak sao without stepping. If the drill were constructed differently, though- maybe with a step added- then the elbow might be in the center, at which point that is where contact would be made.

Exactly. I think you summed it up better than I did. Where you end up depends on your distance, angle, and facing to the opponent. If the elbow isn't on the centerline, relative to me, then there's no sense in pressing it because I'll just be spread off the center. If the wrist is over the center, there's no sense in intercepting it because I'll just open up my own center. It's all context. Where you intercept is where you intercept. As long as you intercept somewhere along the centerline you're good.

 

[BPWT]

I know this is a common belief among many martial artists. But parrying an opponents attack without delivering an attack of your own is always more dangerous, because you will forever be at your opponent's mercy. If you are not threatening him, he doesn't have to worry about what you're doing and can continue to attack you however he sees fit. The point of single time counters is, to use a fencing analogy, steal the tempo in your favor, and gain the offensive. An opponent who is concerned about getting hit is far less dangerous than one concerned with hitting.

I fully agree. It is a question of timing in an exchange. Action beats reaction (generally speaking). We see this all the time (in all lineages, mine included) when we see a Sifu and a student doing Chi Sau or Lap Sau. The Sifu breaks the set cycle of the drill with an attack - often by breaking timing - and the student is then playing 'catch-up' because they are defending only, rather than simultaneously attacking and defending as a response.

The Sifu will rarely attack with a single attack, but instead will string together multiple strikes, and as a result the student is always one step (or more) behind in the exchange.

In relation to Pak Sau, it is why I think it makes sense for the Pak to be driving forward to the opponent's centre, always coupled with a strike at the same time.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In relation to Pak Sau, it is why I think it makes sense for the Pak to be driving forward to the opponent's centre, always coupled with a strike at the same time.

If you think that the parry is too conservative approach, you can also use your Bon Shou and

- drive your forearm into your opponent's center line,
- bounce his punch away, and
- use the same arm to punch at his face.

In the praying mantis system, it's called "哈拳(Ha Quan) - spiral punch, or block and punch by using the same arm". I like to call it the "1/2 rhino horn".

 

[drop bear]

I hear this all the time about the punch turning into an elbow , that would only be possible if you were completely passive and only did the parry without a punch going out at the same time.
If your parry and punch is simultaneous as it should be , then your punch will hit him before he can get into range for the elbow strike.

Besides , people are usually committed to the one action , either punch or elbow strike , not a liitle bit of both.

Doesn't work with a punch. Can work if I am pushing your face and you parry. With the intention of opening you for that elbow.

Might be a bit argy bargy for a regular chun exchange though.

 

[drop bear]

l would say the main reason we parry at the wrist area is because it just takes a whole lot less effort , get a big strong brute of a man to hold his arm out and due to simple leverage it takes less effort to move his wrist than what it does his elbow.
The reason being that his elbow is closer to his power structure ie (his body) so it takes more force to move it.

Now some would say that an experiment like this is flawed because a punch in motion is different than somebody just rigidly holding their arm out , that maybe so but I tend to think it is a pretty close approximation to the forces involved.

Parrying at the wrist also gives you the option of bringing your legs into play for chain kicking , you are at the perfect range to use low heel kicks with the parry or after the parry latching on with the other hand and dragging the opponent into a hook kicks and stamp kicks.

People are under the impression that by parrying the elbow you have the opponents arm under control , this is far from the truth.
Anyone who's been around for a while and has done a fair bit of chi sau knows that there are simple counters to someone trying to manipulate your elbow .

One is to simply cut down and sink the elbow thus changing the relationship of his force to your arm , another one I have used in the past from Biu Jee is where I let them push on my elbow and let my arm scribe a small circle before it comes back around and palm strikes them in the side of the head , usually catches them quite unawares.
It is also possible that they may let you parry the elbow and convert it into a shoulder charge.

This is not to say we never parry the elbow , under certain circumstances we do , such as when attempting to break through an opponents guard when his wrist is high and his elbow is on the centerline.
But generally speaking whether used against an incoming straight punch or as an entry technique the point of contact is usually as OzPaul said where you would wear your watch.

If you were competing with this hand trapping idea though. The further away your hands get. The less likely they will be able to recover and deal with the next shot.

Like tennis when they get the guy running from one side of the court to the other.

So wrist generally would be a smaller movement that you can capitalise on rather than an elbow where they can capitalise a bit.

I assume you don't want to be reaching for people at any time during one of these exchanges.

If you reach for the elbow they could theoretically hook you.

 

[BPWT]

If you think that the parry is too conservative approach, you can also use your Bon Shou and

- drive your forearm into your opponent's center line,
- bounce his punch away, and
- use the same arm to punch at your opponent's face.

In the praying mantis system, it's called "哈拳(Ha Quan) - spiral punch, or block and punch by using the same arm". I like to call it the "1/2 rhino horn".

I like the term "1/2 Rhino Horn".

But in our line we wouldn't want to use Bong Sau in quite this way - we wouldn't look to use it to bounce a punch away (for us it is used more to off-load force - to redirect it but not forcefully bounce it). Ideally, of course.

But the idea of driving the forearm down the centre, deflecting a punch and using the same arm to strike would be how we can use our punching method - so using a punch to wedge out an incoming punch.

But in that sense, Pak Sau can perform the same, or at least a similar, function. If the Pak drives into the centre and deflects the incoming strike, the Pak could then become the striking hand (it is already 'on target' - the centre - and the elbow is down).

Thinking about it, in our line lots our hand/arm motions are like this - they are a bit like thwarted strikes. Wu, Tan, Bong, Jum, etc, often happen as a response to us driving a strike forward to the opponent's centre, but having met an obstacle with a better line of attack or more force, our attacking arm becomes something else.

Or something like that... :boing2:

 

[mook jong man]

In Pin Sun we call this a "Got Bong" or "cutting Bong. If I am punching and you do a rather forceful Pak Sau near my wrist...even if you are punching at the same time, I can easily fold the forearm in and send the elbow out to deflect the punch and possibly strike into the center with the elbow. In fact, we have a 2 man drill to practice exactly this.

I do a Pak Sau anywhere from the mid-forearm to just above the elbow, depending upon the range. We consider it a mistake to Pak near the wrist because the opponent can easily convert to the elbow, which we practice doing as noted above.

What if I am doing a Pak Sau and punch with a simultaneous low heel kick to the knee at the same time.

 

[KPM]

What if I am doing a Pak Sau and punch with a simultaneous low heel kick to the knee at the same time.

We could "what if" all day long. "What if" I did the low heel kick to the knee while I was closing with my Got Bong? I was talking about basic approaches. The "what if" game is silly.

 

[KPM]

The first drill we practice is a punch/pak sao drill, and the pak makes contact with the wrist first- but only because that is what is in the center the way the drill is constructed. Partner's face each other square, one throws a centerline punch, the other performs a pak sao without stepping. If the drill were constructed differently, though- maybe with a step added- then the elbow might be in the center, at which point that is where contact would be made.

In the punch/pak sao drill (Pak Da drill) the purpose is to not only deflect his punch, but to occupy the center. Its not "patty cakes." When you Pak, you should end up with the wrist of your Pak'ing hand on the center while his punch is deflected off the center. It doesn't matter where you contact on his arm with your Pak. You should still end up occupying the center. What determines where on his forearm your Pak makes contact....is your distance. If you were my student and doing as you describe, I would tell you and your partner that you are standing too far apart. If you can extend your arm with a Pak Sao while he is fully extending his arm with a punch....and you are so far away that you can only contact his wrist, then you are too far away and his punch was never really a threat.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't really know how committed you people are doing your Pak Sau's , but in our lineage the Pak Sau only moves a fraction of an inch.

Just enough to wedge your own punch through and return the parrying hand to the center , ample time to deal with an incoming elbow or other strike.

This video shows one way how we do parry and punch as an entry technique , but it's just as easily used against a punching attack.

[video=youtube_share;3-T8k-x7jLI]http://youtu.be/3-T8k-x7jLI[/video]

 

[mook jong man]

If you were competing with this hand trapping idea though. The further away your hands get. The less likely they will be able to recover and deal with the next shot.

Like tennis when they get the guy running from one side of the court to the other.

So wrist generally would be a smaller movement that you can capitalise on rather than an elbow where they can capitalise a bit.

I assume you don't want to be reaching for people at any time during one of these exchanges.

If you reach for the elbow they could theoretically hook you.

Pak Sau only moves a fraction of an inch to let the punch through , it's not some great big lateral slap.
The Pak Sau moves the opponents arm slightly and your own punch going through the gap does the rest of the work of redirecting the opponents punch away from you.

 

[BPWT]

This video shows one way how we do parry and punch as an entry technique, but it's just as easily used against a punching attack.

[video=youtube_share;3-T8k-x7jLI]http://youtu.be/3-T8k-x7jLI[/video]

In this video though, I think the contact is made closer to the elbow than to the wrist.

 

[mook jong man]

In this video though, I think the contact is made closer to the elbow than to the wrist.

That would be because the dudes elbow is closer to the centerline , but if the guys wrist was on the centerline he would go for the wrist.
Circumstances change a little bit when breaking through a guard depending on the position of the persons arms.

But against a straight punch down the center , he would definitely be parrying at the wrist area.